Three Dallas Cops Who Probably Helped Frame Oswald on 11/22/63

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

De Brueys might have been Oswald's FBI handler, but I get the impression that the FBI was an anathema to Oswald. They had given him nothing but grief in his life. For a long time I thought that the CIA had handed Oswald off to the FBI when he came back from Russia, but nowadays, I'm not so sure. Nowadays, I'm more inclined to think it was military intelligence, or some kind of CIA/MI combo. To me, it seems like he appeared in Military intelligence files a whole lot more than in FBI files.

Just about everyone surrounding Oswald in New Orleans in the summer of ‘63 was either an FBI agent, ex-FBI, or an FBI informant.  Banister had been SAC of Chicago less than a decade earlier.  Oswald was on the Bureau’s payroll.

My bet is that DeBrueys was lying through his teeth to the Church Committee, and was probably told to do so. Funny how he felt compelled to deny those reports that Oswald was his informant.   I still think the CIA (Shaw) loaned Russian-speaking Oswald to the FBI (Banister) in 1963.  There was no conceivable reason for Oswald to move from Texas back to New Orleans in 1963 other than to set himself up as a Castro-loving commie.  It may not have started this way, but it turned out to be his unwitting role in the set-up for the JFK assassination which would, the conspirators undoubtedly believed, provoke a REAL invasion of Cuba.  Just note the activities of David Atlee Phillips immediately after the hit.

[Joe Bauer]

• Report post
•  
•  

Posted 23 minutes ago

 

Just about everyone surrounding Oswald in New Orleans in the summer of ‘63 was either an FBI agent, ex-FBI, or an FBI informant.  Banister had been SAC of Chicago less than a decade earlier.  Oswald was on the Bureau’s payroll.

My bet is that DeBrueys was lying through his teeth to the Church Committee, and was probably told to do so. Funny how he felt compelled to deny those reports that Oswald was his informant.   I still think the CIA (Shaw) loaned Russian-speaking Oswald to the FBI (Banister) in 1963.  There was no conceivable reason for Oswald to move from Texas back to New Orleans in 1963 other than to set himself up as a Castro-loving commie.  It may not have started this way, but it turned out to be his unwitting role in the set-up for the JFK assassination which would, the conspirators undoubtedly believed, provoke a REAL invasion of Cuba.  Just note the activities of David Atlee Phillips immediately after the hit.

Jim H.

The plan you mention, to justify an invasion of Cuba, as simple as it seems may very well have been the true agenda.

With the bonus of LBJ getting out of trouble with his legal problems and being handed the final prize he had always lusted after.

The agencies ( including Hoover ) all hated JFK and considered him a threat as well.

Lots of highest level special interests were satisfied with JFK"s death.

 

[Steve Thomas]

33 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

There was no conceivable reason for Oswald to move from Texas back to New Orleans in 1963 other than to set himself up as a Castro-loving commie

Jim,

 

I liked this one:

Lillian Murret:

"Mrs. MURRET - “...one day the telephone rang and I answered the phone, and Lee said, "Hello, Aunt Lillian,...and I said, "Who is this?" and he said, "This is Lee," and I said, "Lee?" and he said, "Yes."
I said, "When did you get out? When did you get back? What are you doing?"

*smile*

Steve Thomas

[Paul Jolliffe]

22 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Just about everyone surrounding Oswald in New Orleans in the summer of ‘63 was either an FBI agent, ex-FBI, or an FBI informant.  Banister had been SAC of Chicago less than a decade earlier.  Oswald was on the Bureau’s payroll.

My bet is that DeBrueys was lying through his teeth to the Church Committee, and was probably told to do so. Funny how he felt compelled to deny those reports that Oswald was his informant.   I still think the CIA (Shaw) loaned Russian-speaking Oswald to the FBI (Banister) in 1963.  There was no conceivable reason for Oswald to move from Texas back to New Orleans in 1963 other than to set himself up as a Castro-loving commie.  It may not have started this way, but it turned out to be his unwitting role in the set-up for the JFK assassination which would, the conspirators undoubtedly believed, provoke a REAL invasion of Cuba.  Just note the activities of David Atlee Phillips immediately after the hit.

Jim and Steve,

I agree that DeBrueys lied to theChurch Committee.

Remember that back in 1967, when Harold Weisberg first started poking around in the murk of LHO in New Orleans, Orestes Pena was willing to spill it but was “mysteriously” lead-piped in the head - and hospitalized - on his way to meet Weisberg. Also, even more intriguing, Pena had the description and the license number of the car which was associated with “Oswald” and DeBrueys’s visits to the Habana Bar. 

The FBI and the Warren Commission made that car and license number disappear.

Finally, in 1964 when J. Edgar Hoover provided affidavits from various FBI agents denying that “Oswald” had been their informant, Hoover managed to NOT submit an affidavit from

.. . 

Warren DeBrueys.

 

By 1975, DeBrueys knew that he could lie under oath and would not risk a perjury charge.

[Jim Hargrove]

Raw report on HSCA telephone interview with Orest Pena from John Armstrong Collection at Baylor:

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

The plan you mention, to justify an invasion of Cuba, as simple as it seems may very well have been the true agenda.

That's my take (and my friend John Armstrong's) but I don't know how many other researchers will agree.  I'm sure there were additional reasons for some of the people who went along with this crime, but the prime motivation seems damnably clear to me.

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

 

I liked this one:

Lillian Murret:

"Mrs. MURRET - “...one day the telephone rang and I answered the phone, and Lee said, "Hello, Aunt Lillian,...and I said, "Who is this?" and he said, "This is Lee," and I said, "Lee?" and he said, "Yes."
I said, "When did you get out? When did you get back? What are you doing?"

*smile*

Steve Thomas

“When did you get out?”  (Of jail, maybe, probably?)

Steve, Jim Hargrove can probably help us out here, but my guess is that the real Lee Harvey Oswald called his real Aunt Lillian and she let slip her surprise at his release from some sort of . . . custody?

I believe, and Jim does too, that the real LHO did spend at least part of the summer of 1963 in New Orleans. As a matter of fact, I personally believe there is significant evidence that the real LHO visited Carlos Bringuer’s store in N. O. in early August of 1963. 

Was Warren DeBrueys the FBI contact for the real LHO that summer of 1963?

[Jim Hargrove]

Paul,

This is well beyond my security clearance, but if I had to hazard a guess about the locations of American-born LEE Oswald (5’11”, ~165 lbs) in the summer and fall of 1963, based on JA’s research, I’d say that while HARVEY was in both New Orleans and Dallas, LEE was living in Dallas (at least part of that time at 1501-1503 W. 7th in Dallas), often hanging around with Jack Ruby and the girls, but also traveling briefly to the towns of Jackson and Clinton and Baton Rouge in Louisiana and environs, as well as the Cuban exile training camps in Florida (meeting with Marita Lorenz, Frank Fiorini, et al) and visiting Castro’s favorite gun supplier Robert McKeown in Baycliff, TX on Labor Day weekend, 1963.  

There is little doubt that American-born LEE Oswald spent at least part of his time in New Orleans in the summer of ‘63, but I have no idea who—if anyone--called Lillian Murret.  I sincerely doubt she could have differentiated LEE from HARVEY on the phone or perhaps even in person. Except for that weird Thanksgiving get-together, it had been many years.

Surely it was all part of the CIA’s “LET’S INVADE CUBA AGAIN” games.  And they almost succeeded.

Do you think this is LEE Oswald in Ruby's Carousel Club?

Edited April 8, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Stephanie Goldberg]

12 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

My guess is that “Oswald” asked for Warren DeBrueys, who was apparently unavailable at that moment. Remember that Orestes Pena, owner of the Habana Bar, and his bartender Evarist Rodriguez, both swore that “Oswald” and Pena met at the bar on a couple of occasions. 

DeBrueys, of course, moved from New Orleans  to Dallas and back to New Orleans coincident with “Oswald’s” arrival in the Crescent City, his return to Dallas, and then his murder.

Was DeBrueys “Oswald’s” FBI contact?

Probably.

You are correct.

I KNEW I read it somewhere.  In Someone Would Have Talked (Larry Hancock) says:

"This is substantiated by the fact that NOPD Lt. Martello was given de Brueys name by Lee Oswald, and specifically asked to contact him to visit Oswald after his arrest."  (p. 283) 

The author cites Joan Mellen's work and in her book A Farewell to Justice, she says :

"...so now he handed Martello a note on a piece of paper torn from his notebook.  Its reverse side included the Moscow telephone numbers of United Press International and the Associated Press.

"Oswald pointed to a number scribbled at the top of the note.  'Just call the FBI," Oswald told Martello.  'Tell them you have Lee Oswald in custody.  When they arrive, hand them this note.'  Oswald added that he wished to be visited by a particular agent: Warren de Brueys."  (p.59)

Ms. Mellen cites a January 12, 2000 interview with William Walter and L.J. Delsa for the story about Oswald asking for de Brueys.

I KNEW I read it somewhere.  

 

[Tony Krome]

Q. What would be the best way to blow one's cover as an FBI informant? 

A. Ask for a an FBI agent to roll up at a Police Station to speak with him.

Q. How did Oswald react to FBI presence on the 22nd November?

A, With hostility

Q. Who was Oswald and family associating with in Dallas during 1963? Were they linked more so to the FBI or the CIA??

A. Not the FBI

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

“When did you get out?”  (Of jail, maybe, probably?)

Steve, Jim Hargrove can probably help us out here, but my guess is that the real Lee Harvey Oswald called his real Aunt Lillian and she let slip her surprise at his release from some sort of . . . custody?

 

Paul,

 

I was being facetious.

I'm pretty sure she was talking about Lee getting out of Russia, because his response to her was, "I've been back for about a year and a half now."

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

5 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Q. What would be the best way to blow one's cover as an FBI informant? 

A. Ask for a an FBI agent to roll up at a Police Station to speak with him.

 

Tony,

 

It never made any sense to me that Oswald would ask to speak to an FBI agent, and when that agent did show up, Oswald would just talk gibberish to him.

He would either say, "I've got some hot information that can't wait for 24 hours". or he would say, "Gee guys, I'm one of you, can't you get me out of here?"

Neither of those two things happened.

Those who believe that LHO acted alone in killing JFK would point to LHO's behavior as just one more example of Oswald's being unhinged.

I think LHO was surprised when Quigley showed up, and he just spouted off some more nonsense about communism vs capitalism and the FPCC.

When Quigley showed up at the police station, he didn't even know the name of the individual he was supposed to be interviewing. If Oswald had called the FBI, he would have said, "This is Lee Oswald and I've got some important information", or he would have said, "This is Agent T-1." or some such.

No, It was Martello who was driving the bus. Why direct Quigley's attention to the FPCC material before letting him see Oswald?

Quigley told the WC,

" Mr. QUIGLEY. At the time I arrived at the police station, Lieutenant Martello directed me to the commanding officer's office, where there was laid out on the table a number of different pamphlets, throwaways, relating to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which he advised me had been removed by the New Orleans Police Department from Oswald the previous day, August 9, at the time of his arrest, for disturbing the peace on Canal Street.
I reviewed, generally looked over, the material to see what it was. I was not familiar with any of this material. While I was doing this, he had not at this point identified who the individual was other than the person had been arrested the previous day; while I was looking over the material, the jailer brought in an individual who was then introduced to me by Lieutenant Martello as Harvey Lee Oswald. I then identified myself by credentials to Lee Harvey Oswald."

 

PS: Catch the Harvey Lee Oswald reference? This is coming from someone who had spent the prior two years as the "deputy commander of the Intelligence Division of the New Orleans Police Department."

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

9 hours ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

You are correct.

I KNEW I read it somewhere.  In Someone Would Have Talked (Larry Hancock) says:

"This is substantiated by the fact that NOPD Lt. Martello was given de Brueys name by Lee Oswald, and specifically asked to contact him to visit Oswald after his arrest."  (p. 283) 

The author cites Joan Mellen's work and in her book A Farewell to Justice, she says :

"...so now he handed Martello a note on a piece of paper torn from his notebook.  Its reverse side included the Moscow telephone numbers of United Press International and the Associated Press.

"Oswald pointed to a number scribbled at the top of the note.  'Just call the FBI," Oswald told Martello.  'Tell them you have Lee Oswald in custody.  When they arrive, hand them this note.'  Oswald added that he wished to be visited by a particular agent: Warren de Brueys."  (p.59)

Ms. Mellen cites a January 12, 2000 interview with William Walter and L.J. Delsa for the story about Oswald asking for de Brueys.

I KNEW I read it somewhere.  

 

Thank you for that, Stephanie.  The most logical explanation for this is surely that our young FBI informant felt he had spent quite enough time in jail and wanted his FBI handler (DeBrueys) to get him out.  When Quigley showed up instead of DeBrueys, Harvey clammed up because this FBI SA hadn’t gotten the memo ‘splaining his (Oswald’s) assignment.

8 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Q. What would be the best way to blow one's cover as an FBI informant? 

A. Ask for a an FBI agent to roll up at a Police Station to speak with him.

Q. How did Oswald react to FBI presence on the 22nd November?

A, With hostility

Q. Who was Oswald and family associating with in Dallas during 1963? Were they linked more so to the FBI or the CIA??

A. Not the FBI

Oswald was surely a CIA agent of some sort, but we’ve also known since 1965 that he had been on the FBI payroll and still was the day JFK was murdered.  The source of this information was none other than WC member and future U.S. President Gerald Ford:

The Texas officials slipped into the nation’s capital with complete anonymity.  They met with Lee Rankin and other members of the staff and told what they knew. The information was that Lee Oswald was actually hired by the FBI; that he was assigned the undercover-agent number 179; that he was on the FBI payroll at two hundred dollars a month starting in September 1962 and that he was still on their payroll the day he was apprehended in the Texas Theatre after having gunned down Officer J.D. Tippit!

--Gerald Ford and John Styles, Portrait of the Assassin, p. 14, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1965

[Tony Krome]

9 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Oswald was surely a CIA agent of some sort, but we’ve also known since 1965 that he had been on the FBI payroll and still was the day JFK was murdered.  The source of this information was none other than WC member and future U.S. President Gerald Ford:

The Texas officials slipped into the nation’s capital with complete anonymity.  They met with Lee Rankin and other members of the staff and told what they knew. The information was that Lee Oswald was actually hired by the FBI; that he was assigned the undercover-agent number 179; that he was on the FBI payroll at two hundred dollars a month starting in September 1962 and that he was still on their payroll the day he was apprehended in the Texas Theatre after having gunned down Officer J.D. Tippit!

--Gerald Ford and John Styles, Portrait of the Assassin, p. 14, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1965

Who were the "Texas officials" ?

[Jim Hargrove]

Tony,

Ford named only "the Texas Attorney General" and long-time Dallas "District Attorney [Henry] Wade...."  The Texas Attorney General at the time was Waggoner Carr.   

Robert Tanenbaum (former Deputy Counsel for the House Select Committee on Assassinations) testified that he read the transcript of the secret session Ford was referring to.  In 1996 Tanenbaum testified at an ARRB hearing in Los Angeles by saying, "the Attorney General of Texas, Henry Wade the District Attorney and Leon Jaworsky counsel to the Attorney General, on the transcript spoke to the Chief Justice and said in substance, as I recall, that they had information from unimpeachable sources that Lee Harvey Oswald was a contract employee of the CIA and the FBI." (Click here for full testimony.)