1950's CIA "Manchurian Candidate" Memo?

[Don Roberdeau]

Good Day.... Located within this 12-13-04 internet article....

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/12/emw183199.htm

....is the un-referenced statement....

" *A declassified CIA memo from the 1950s describes a scenario in which a government-programmed assassin/defector kills an American official and is then "disposed of" after being taken into custody."

....Does anyone have a specific reference for this, supposed, CIA memo from the 1950's? Thank You.

Don Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker

Sooner, or later, the Truth emerges Clearly

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/ROSE...NOUNCEMENT.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/BOND...PINGarnold.html

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/GHOS...update2001.html

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

"Mr. GOLDSMITH - Does this [H.S.C.A.] memorandum make reference to 37 documents being missing from Oswald's 201 file?

Mr. HELMS - Yes, it does. It says that in 1964, February 20, a comparison of the documents available in 201 file and those recorded as being those in the 201 file has shown 37 documents which should be in the 201 file are not available in it. And there is a breakdown of what seems to be missing."

-exchange during the 25SEP78 H.S.C.A. testimony of RICHARD HELMS, the C.I.A.'s 1963 Deputy Director for Plans

[Shanet Clark]

Here's the full press release found on the hotlink above:

The “Manchurian Candidate” theory of the JFK assassination not only explains the bipolar nature of Oswald's activities (pro- and anti-Communist) leading up to and including the assassination, but also can be used to harmonize the two main schools of thought in the ongoing investigation: “Oswald as lone-assassin” and “Oswald as CIA patsy.” Since an “involuntary assassin” is the ultimate patsy, this artificial division in the ongoing investigation can be eliminated and the best evidence from both camps synthesized to finally solve the case.

(PRWEB) December 13, 2004 -- Was accused JFK assassin Lee Harvey Oswald a lone nut, a Soviet agent, or a CIA version of the "Manchurian Candidate"?

That last possibility arises from public records of U.S. intelligence agencies and contractors, studied and synthesized into a sensational new theory: Oswald was influenced by mind control, a technique developed and used by the United States.

In the shadow of the 40th anniversary of the assassination, Jerry Leonard, author of “The Perfect Assassin,” develops that intriguing new theory. He matches what is known of Oswald and of U.S. mind control experiments, and unifies the "establishment" and the "conspiracy" theories by portraying Oswald as both perpetrator and patsy.

Sound intriguing? Consider this:

*A declassified CIA memo from the 1950s describes a scenario in which a government-programmed assassin/defector kills an American official and is then "disposed of" after being taken into custody.

*A military hypnotist in the 1950s describes in detail how to create an unwitting "super spy" by splitting an individual's personality into militant anti-Communist and pro-Communist factions.

This backdrop of mind control experimentation allows us to see Oswald's role in the Kennedy assassination in a revealing light. His baffling pro- and anti-Communist behavior is no longer contradictory, but uncannily fits the profile of a programmed operative whose post-assassination elimination while in police custody was foreshadowed in a CIA memo.

In addition to serving as a warning to us today, the "Manchurian candidate" theory of the JFK assassination eliminates long-standing difficulties for researchers pursuing the historic case. It also provides common ground for those who claim that Oswald pulled the trigger, and those who claim he was used as a "fall-guy" for the CIA to take the blame for its crime.

Written for the assassination expert and novice alike, The Perfect Assassin offers a provocative theory that will stimulate discussion and, it is the author's hope, create a framework to settle the issue once and for all.

The Perfect Assassin

ISBN 1-4033-6336-6

$15.50

{This ties in with a lot of what I've been seeing and posting on}

[Ian A. Kerr]

Here's the full press release found on the hotlink above:

The “Manchurian Candidate” theory of the JFK assassination not only explains the bipolar nature of Oswald's activities (pro- and anti-Communist) leading up to and including the assassination, but also can be used to harmonize the two main schools of thought in the ongoing investigation: “Oswald as lone-assassin” and “Oswald as CIA patsy.” Since an “involuntary assassin” is the ultimate patsy, this artificial division in the ongoing investigation can be eliminated and the best evidence from both camps synthesized to finally solve the case.

(PRWEB) December 13, 2004 -- Was accused JFK assassin Lee Harvey Oswald a lone nut, a Soviet agent, or a CIA version of the "Manchurian Candidate"?

That last possibility arises from public records of U.S. intelligence agencies and contractors, studied and synthesized into a sensational new theory: Oswald was influenced by mind control, a technique developed and used by the United States.

In the shadow of the 40th anniversary of the assassination, Jerry Leonard, author of “The Perfect Assassin,” develops that intriguing new theory. He matches what is known of Oswald and of U.S. mind control experiments, and unifies the "establishment" and the "conspiracy" theories by portraying Oswald as both perpetrator and patsy.

Sound intriguing? Consider this:

*A declassified CIA memo from the 1950s describes a scenario in which a government-programmed assassin/defector kills an American official and is then "disposed of" after being taken into custody.

*A military hypnotist in the 1950s describes in detail how to create an unwitting "super spy" by splitting an individual's personality into militant anti-Communist and pro-Communist factions.

This backdrop of mind control experimentation allows us to see Oswald's role in the Kennedy assassination in a revealing light. His baffling pro- and anti-Communist behavior is no longer contradictory, but uncannily fits the profile of a programmed operative whose post-assassination elimination while in police custody was foreshadowed in a CIA memo.

In addition to serving as a warning to us today, the "Manchurian candidate" theory of the JFK assassination eliminates long-standing difficulties for researchers pursuing the historic case. It also provides common ground for those who claim that Oswald pulled the trigger, and those who claim he was used as a "fall-guy" for the CIA to take the blame for its crime.

Written for the assassination expert and novice alike, The Perfect Assassin offers a provocative theory that will stimulate discussion and, it is the author's hope, create a framework to settle the issue once and for all.

The Perfect Assassin

ISBN 1-4033-6336-6

$15.50

{This ties in with a lot of what I've been seeing and posting on}

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet/Don,

I posted this link somewhile back on Lancer. An interesting read for sure.

http://www.mindspring.com/~txporter/scidig.htm

Ian

[Shanet Clark]

Ian

Thought provoking isn't it? I noticed the mad scientist worked specifically for Oswald's branch, the Marines. Splitting personalities into virulently anti-communist and communist faces...sending hypnotized counterspies across enemy lines, it all sounds familiar.

[Ian A. Kerr]

Ian

Thought provoking isn't it? I noticed the mad scientist worked specifically for Oswald's branch, the Marines. Splitting personalities into virulently anti-communist and communist faces...sending hypnotized counterspies across enemy lines, it all sounds familiar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet,

Lots of material can be read about this subject by doing a Google search on Estabrooks. Additionally, Dr.Colin Ross has done much research on MKUltra(etc. ) inspired techniques and the individuals and organizations that sponsored them.

I have always been interested in the number of " babysitters " that LHO had thru the years. There are several well known individuals eg.) De Morenschildt, Bannister

however, IMO not enough research ( if any ) has been done with regard to other lesser or unknown individuals that may have also served some function in Oswald's developement.

I'm not sue if I accept the Machurian Candidate scenario wholus-bolus, but...

An example of what I mean is Jose Rivera. If you buy into Adele Edisen's recollections, it isn't a great leap to suppose that Rivera was seeking to use Edisen to pass information, possibly a coded post hypnotic suggestion, along to LHO. The interesting, and coincidental (?) fact is that Rivera worked at an army hospital in Tokyo at exactly the time that LHO was stationed in Atsugi ( circa 1958 ). Well, Atsugi is not very far from Tokyo... Anyway, from the reading I have done regarding the methods for and practice of programming spies, LHO actions, specifically his fraternizations at the Queen Bee, his poorly explained disappearances, etc, all seem to suggest something more than the life of your average GI.

I for one find it passing strange that a character like Rivera,given his connections with NIH ( and it's Ultra-esque connections )and , assuming one believes Edisen's story , would re-insinuate himself into LHO life immediately prior to the assassination, especially given the coincidence of their previous addresses.

I wonder how much research it would take to to uncover any other hitherto unknown individuals that may have also " crossed paths " with our favourite lone nut assassin?

Ian

Edited December 16, 2004 by Ian A. Kerr

[Shanet Clark]

Ian Kerr

I will do those searches. My information comes from the book by John Marks on the MK/ULTRA program. Richard Helms destroyed the operational files, but Colby released many of the FInancial files, and Marks reconstructed the reports. The Frank Olson Project is a good source on the MK/Ultra and there was a good Korean War Era book I read called Brainwashed. There certainly is more going on than we are being told, both in terms of present and historical programs.

[Nathaniel Heidenheimer]

I found this interesting quote from John Marks' book in an article by Lisa Pease in the compilation book published in 2003 called The Assasinations. Marks quotes a CIA officer involved in MKULTRA research

as saying that programming an assassin would be highly "impractical...due to the unpredicatable

number of independent decision the subject might encounter which could lead to his exposure before the deed

was done"

Programming a patsy, however?

The veteran admits that none of the arguments he uses against a conditioned assassin

would apply to a programmed "patsy" whom a hypnotist could walk through a series of

seemingly unrelated events--a visit to a store, a conversation with a mailman, picking a

fight at a political rally. The subject would remember evertything that happened to him

and be amnesic only for a the fact the hypnotist ordered him to do these things.

There would be no gaping inconsistency in his life of the sort that can ruin an attempt

by a hypnotist to create a second personality. The purpose of this exercise is to leave a

circumstantial trail that will make the authorities think the patsy committed a particular crime.

The weakness might well be that the amnesia would not hold up under police interrogation,

but that would not matter if the police did not believe his preposterous story about being

hypnotized, or if he were shot resiting arrest. Hypnosis expert Milton Kline says he could

create a patsy in three months; an assassin would take him six (p. 582)

Edited November 18, 2006 by Nathaniel Heidenheimer

[Ashton Gray]

I'd just like to emphasize in this thread that for about two weeks in 1953, beginning on 16 April 1953, Lee Harvey Oswald was in the custody and control of one Dr. Renatus Hartogs, a German psychiatrist.

I think some background is in order in this place and time on the dear Doktor.

After studying at the University of Frankfurt-am-Main and practicing as a psychologist in Belgium, Renatus Hartogs arrived in the United States on 4 December 1940, and soon was studying in a pretty strange place for a new arrival to the states: Montreal, Canada.

It so happens that just six years earlier, in 1934, Dr. Wilder Penfield had been given $1.2 million by (wait for it) the Rockefeller Foundation to establish the Montreal Neurological Institute, where old Wild Wilder Wildest earned a rep for poking probes into the brains of conscious patients, using only local anesthetic. Of course this was all under the veddy, veddy proper veil of "epilepsy research." Uh-huh.

While no direct association is known between Hartogs and Wilder, it almost is inconceivable that a student of psychiatry could study at the University of Montreal and be oblivous to Wilder Penfield's Rockefeller-funded institute and brain poking.

So Hartogs then set up shop in New York, where he became the chief psychiatrist for this veddy, veddy helpful privately-owned "Youth House" for wayward boys, and got his paws on Oswald because Little Lee had been "truant." Well, of course. And Oswald was there (at least that's what Hartogs says) for two weeks or more, and nobody knows at all what went on, except what Hartogs has reported in testimony and in his supplied "report." And you can believe it if you want.

But I can't stop here, because in 1973 the sweet and caring Dr. Renatus Hartogs, with "good credentials" and a column in Cosmopolitan magazine, was sued by Julie Roy, who claimed that Hartogs had sexually exploited her. Hartogs attacked her as "an incurable schizophrenic"—then two other women came forward at the trial and said he'd done the same thing to them. He was ordered to pay $350,000.

And we all lived happily ever after.

AFTERWORD: In 1952, the year before Hartogs got his paws on Little Lee, Shafica Karagulla was in Montreal in as understudy to the always fun Dr. Wilder Penfield. Twenty years later, in early August 1972, she was sitting side-by-side with Ingo Swann on his little trip to L.A. before he commenced a series of experiments with CIA agents under the direction of CIA's Sidney Gottlieb, leading to the secret 1 October 1972 CIA contract with Swann to develop remote viewing.

Ashton Gray

Edited November 18, 2006 by Ashton Gray

[Robert Howard]

I found this interesting quote from John Marks book in an article by Lisa Pease in the compilation book published in 2003 called The Assasinations. Marks quotes a CIA officer involved in MKULTRA research

as saying that programming an assassin would be highly "impractical...due to the unpredicatable

number of independent decision the subject might encounter which could lead to his exposure before the deed

was done"

Programming a patsy, however?

The veteran admits that none of the arguments he uses against a conditioned assassin

would apply to a programmed "patsy" whom a hypnotist could walk through a series of

seemingly unrelated events--a vist to a store, a conversation with a mailman, picking a

fight at a political rally. The subject would remember evertything that happened to him

and be amnesic only for a the fact the hypnotist ordere him to do these things.

There would be no gaping inconsistency in his life of the sort that can ruin an attempt

by a hypnotist to create a second personality. The purpose of this exercise is to leave a

circumstantial trail that will make the authorities think the patsy committed a praticular crime

The weakness might well be that the amnesia would not hold up under police interrogatin,

but that would not matter if the police did not believe his preposterousstory about being

hypnotized or it he were shot resiting arrest. Hypnosis expert Milton Kline says he could

create a patsy in three months; an assassin would take him six (p. 582)

I don't think it is a coincidence that the MK/ULTRA documents ie [sidney Gottlieb] were conveniently disposed of somewhere in the space/time continuum [along with a plethora of other smoking guns.] Personally, I believe Jack Ruby was MK/Ultra'd, and that is why certain pieces of Ruby's part in the overall JFK saga are to a degree, shrouded in a veil, so to speak.

Oswald? For 43 years the missing pieces have eluded researchers, [see above: other smoking guns.] The most logical postulation re Lee Oswald is Office of Naval Intelligence [see Victor Marchetti, Gerry Hemming, Hal Verb's 'AARB Testimony re LHO's crypto secret clearance.' It is also not a stretch of the imagination to consider the possibility of overlapping affiliations, [FBI Informant; that would explain the fact that Hosty and Shanklin kept passing that hot potato around re: the message received from Lee 'where he threatened to vlow up the Dallas FBI Office if Hosty didn't stop harassing Marina', a BS Story if there ever was one, even Hosty later discounted that part of the story]

Last, but by no means least are the words [or sketch]] provided by Richard Case Nagell who, when asked by Dick Russell what was Oswald doing at 12:30 as the motorcade drove by, drew a sketch of LHO under hypnosis firing from the 6th Floor window [although I do not believe the evidence supports that conclusion,] that does not mean that Nagell had information that that was the 'plan.'

The Oswald Project is a most interesting expression to be mentioned, Wilcott is very credible to those who know how the game is played. The ultimate tragedy for the American public, both then and now, is the fact that the movers and shakers in the 'CIA/Media Mockingbird' paradigm of 1963 were spinning the Kennedy Assassination 35 years before the American people knew what the word 'spin' meant.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Robert Howard

[Greg Parker]

I'd just like to emphasize in this thread that for about two weeks in 1953, beginning on 16 April 1953, Lee Harvey Oswald was in the custody and control of one Dr. Renatus Hartogs, a German psychiatrist.

I think some background is in order in this place and time on the dear Doktor.

After studying at the University of Frankfurt-am-Main and practicing as a psychologist in Belgium, Renatus Hartogs arrived in the United States on 4 December 1940, and soon was studying in a pretty strange place for a new arrival to the states: Montreal, Canada.

It so happens that just six years earlier, in 1934, Dr. Wilder Penfield had been given $1.2 million by (wait for it) the Rockefeller Foundation to establish the Montreal Neurological Institute, where old Wild Wilder Wildest earned a rep for poking probes into the brains of conscious patients, using only local anesthetic. Of course this was all under the veddy, veddy proper veil of "epilepsy research." Uh-huh.

While no direct association is known between Hartogs and Wilder, it almost is inconceivable that a student of psychiatry could study at the University of Montreal and be oblivous to Wilder Penfield's Rockefeller-funded institute and brain poking.

Ashton, he may not have been oblivious to it, but Penfold's institute was at McGill, not the University of Montreal.

So Hartogs then set up shop in New York, where he became the chief psychiatrist for this veddy, veddy helpful privately-owned "Youth House" for wayward boys, and got his paws on Oswald because Little Lee had been "truant." Well, of course.

In the 1920s New York City established a new tribunal for children and changed laws governing youth. The act effectively combined criminal activity, disorderly conduct, and truancy under the general heading of juvenile delinquency.

And Oswald was there (at least that's what Hartogs says) for two weeks or more, and nobody knows at all what went on, except what Hartogs has reported in testimony and in his supplied "report." And you can believe it if you want.

There seems to have been more than one psych report from YH if you believe Florence Kelley. I'll try and find the newspaper article quoting her. Hartogs claimed this article is what jogged his memory on Oswald after the assassination. Trouble was, she quoted from a YH psych report which didn't match Hartogs' report obtained by the WC. Whether or not Hartogs accurately reported "what went on", other health professionals in YH also wrote reports giving a similar picture. I do note that YH was painted as one of the better youth institutes by a former (many times) "guest" of that institute in the '50s. See autobiography of Harlem native, Claude Brown, Manchild in the Promised Land (published in '65)

But I can't stop here, because in 1973 the sweet and caring Dr. Renatus Hartogs, with "good credentials" and a column in Cosmopolitan magazine, was sued by Julie Roy, who claimed that Hartogs had sexually exploited her. Hartogs attacked her as "an incurable schizophrenic"—then two other women came forward at the trial and said he'd done the same thing to them. He was ordered to pay $350,000.

That's all true.

And we all lived happily ever after.

AFTERWORD: In 1952, the year before Hartogs got his paws on Little Lee, Shafica Karagulla was in Montreal in as understudy to the always fun Dr. Wilder Penfield. Twenty years later, in early August 1972, she was sitting side-by-side with Ingo Swann on his little trip to L.A. before he commenced a series of experiments with CIA agents under the direction of CIA's Sidney Gottlieb, leading to the secret 1 October 1972 CIA contract with Swann to develop remote viewing.

Ashton Gray

Even though it may look like I disagree that YH and Hartogs are potential high yield investments in research time, that's far from the truth. Oswald's journey to Dealey Plaza imo, started during his time in NYC. Funny you should link Hartogs to Penfold through a university. I have him linked to another psychiatrist through the University of Frankfurt-am-Main. At least they both attended it at around the same time, and later would both live in NYC. As this research is ongoing and may have some significance in areas being looked into by others, I won't name him at this stage, but I'll toss out this teaser... he was closely associated with a member of Lyman Paine's inner circle.

[Michael Hogan]

As this research is ongoing and may have some significance in areas being looked into by others, I won't name him at this stage, but I'll toss out this teaser... he was closely associated with a member of Lyman Paine's inner circle.

Greg,

That member of Lyman Paine's inner circle wouldn't be James Burnham, would it?

[Ashton Gray]

Ashton, he may not have been oblivious to it, but Penfold's institute was at McGill, not the University of Montreal.

Right, and while I've never been to Montreal, it appears to me on the map that McGill and the University of Montreal are only across Parc Mont Royal from each other, less than a mile. Each must find his own path through the CIA's maze of mirrors, but it's been my experience, in my wanderings, that they use proximate locations constantly in their tireless efforts at keeping their tracks covered and obfuscating connections. It disperses the attention of trackers in different directions and throws lots more "place names" into the swirling confusion that is their primary product.

Of course this does exactly what it's supposed to do, and as I said, no direct connection has been made between Hartogs and Penfield during this period. But the proximity, and an awareness of this as a favorite ruse is why I posted this about Hartogs and Penfield.

There seems to have been more than one psych report from YH if you believe Florence Kelley. I'll try and find the newspaper article quoting her. Hartogs claimed this article is what jogged his memory on Oswald after the assassination. Trouble was, she quoted from a YH psych report which didn't match Hartogs' report obtained by the WC.

Thanks. Yes, I have limited anecdotal information on this "twosie." If you can find the article I'd love to see it.

Whether or not Hartogs accurately reported "what went on", other health professionals in YH also wrote reports giving a similar picture. I do note that YH was painted as one of the better youth institutes by a former (many times) "guest" of that institute in the '50s.

<SPIT!> They have plenty of "health professionals" and "former guests" of their mind-bending institutions in their pocket who will tell as many lies as needed, some of them for reasons I won't get into here since I don't like to gratuitously induce nausea.

Even though it may look like I disagree that YH and Hartogs are potential high yield investments in research time, that's far from the truth.

No, I completely agree that all such factors, pro and con, should be aired and taken into account.

Oswald's journey to Dealey Plaza imo, started during his time in NYC. Funny you should link Hartogs to Penfold through a university. I have him linked to another psychiatrist through the University of Frankfurt-am-Main. At least they both attended it at around the same time, and later would both live in NYC. As this research is ongoing and may have some significance in areas being looked into by others, I won't name him at this stage, but I'll toss out this teaser... he was closely associated with a member of Lyman Paine's inner circle.

You have my undivided attention, so unless these "others" somehow have staked out a proprietary interest in the truth, I think it would be in the greater good to set forth the name.

Meanwhile, while you mull that over, and since the Paine name has come up, there is another curious intersection of the Paine contingent, Oswald, and the psychiatric underworld (but I repeat myself). That's with Dr. Wilhelm Kuetemeyer, one of the most curious cases in a stampeding herd of "curious cases."

Kuetemeyer has to have been a psychiatrist, having conducted "experiments on schizophrenics" prior to becoming involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler (ostensibly—that's a whole other story). Yet nowhere is he given the name he deserves, always being referred to by the euphimism "Professor of psychosomatic medicine." He is such a shadowy figure whose only connection to the scene seems to be through the equally smoky Volkmar Schmidt, whose "idea" was proposed to de Mohrenschildt for Oswald to meet the Paines.

And yet somehow, throught some mysterious method, somewhere, Kuetemeyer reportedly concocted a "psychological profile" of Lee Harvey Oswald. What a bizarre datum. How? Where? When?

These aren't rhetorical questions. If anyone has any further information it would be greatly appreciated.

And while the following begins to wander from the specific to the general, I am going to state here that we are in SCUBA gear now examing the below-the-water-line part of the iceberg. It is dark, hidden, and almost inconceivably massive, stretching away into black depths that never have been plumbed or viewed.

One of my idle wonderments is the comparison of the reports and evidences of abuses and atrocities we do have about CIA's mind-control projects and programs (and even that considerable mound, of course, only a fraction), versus the almost total vacuum that sits where the names of psychiatrists that had to have been planning and conducting it all for CIA should be. It's astounding.

And it's perhaps more astounding how very little anyone seems to notice this giant sucking hole in the record. It's almost as though people read about BLUEBIRD and MK-ULTRA, and somehow kind of figure that maybe a bunch of lay CIA bureaucrats and agents whose names they know must have been doing all the dirty work. It's almost funny in a very sad and even macabre way.

But one thing is certain: for everything CIA has coughed up about such crimes, nothing has been more jealously and scrupulously protected than their network of accommodating APA and AMA butchers. (I mean scientists and doctors, of course. A slip of the typing fingers.)

Ashton Gray

[Greg Parker]

QUOTE(Greg Parker @ Nov 18 2006, 07:10 AM) *

Ashton, he may not have been oblivious to it, but Penfold's institute was at McGill, not the University of Montreal.

Ashton - Right, and while I've never been to Montreal, it appears to me on the map that McGill and the University of Montreal are only across Parc Mont Royal from each other, less than a mile. Each must find his own path through the CIA's maze of mirrors, but it's been my experience, in my wanderings, that they use proximate locations constantly in their tireless efforts at keeping their tracks covered and obfuscating connections. It disperses the attention of trackers in different directions and throws lots more "place names" into the swirling confusion that is their primary product.

Of course this does exactly what it's supposed to do, and as I said, no direct connection has been made between Hartogs and Penfield during this period. But the proximity, and an awareness of this as a favorite ruse is why I posted this about Hartogs and Penfield.

Fair enough.

Greg -There seems to have been more than one psych report from YH if you believe Florence Kelley. I'll try and find the newspaper article quoting her. Hartogs claimed this article is what jogged his memory on Oswald after the assassination. Trouble was, she quoted from a YH psych report which didn't match Hartogs' report obtained by the WC.

Ashton- Thanks. Yes, I have limited anecdotal information on this "twosie." If you can find the article I'd love to see it.

As soon as I can locate it, I'll provide the exact quotes from it. If I recall, it seemed to me at the time I read it, there was contradictory info as to her source on the report.

Greg - Whether or not Hartogs accurately reported "what went on", other health professionals in YH also wrote reports giving a similar picture. I do note that YH was painted as one of the better youth institutes by a former (many times) "guest" of that institute in the '50s.

Ashton - <SPIT!> They have plenty of "health professionals" and "former guests" of their mind-bending institutions in their pocket who will tell as many lies as needed, some of them for reasons I won't get into here since I don't like to gratuitously induce nausea.

Let me preface my response here by saying that I believe you are a valuable member of this forum - often providing new info and shart insight combined with great wit. With that in mind, how you conclude that all the evidence showing YH to be a "normal" institution is actually proof of the opposite is beyond my comprehension. Yes, both YH and Hartogs warrant close attention, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Here's some info on the guy you've just accused of possibly being in the pocket of the CIA: http://aalbc.com/authors/claudebrown.htm His book actually gives many accounts of what it was like in YH, and the types of "guests" they had.

Greg - Even though it may look like I disagree that YH and Hartogs are potential high yield investments in research time, that's far from the truth.

Ashton - No, I completely agree that all such factors, pro and con, should be aired and taken into account.

Good! Now we only have to agree on what's "pro" and what's "con"

Greg - Oswald's journey to Dealey Plaza imo, started during his time in NYC. Funny you should link Hartogs to Penfold through a university. I have him linked to another psychiatrist through the University of Frankfurt-am-Main. At least they both attended it at around the same time, and later would both live in NYC. As this research is ongoing and may have some significance in areas being looked into by others, I won't name him at this stage, but I'll toss out this teaser... he was closely associated with a member of Lyman Paine's inner circle.

Ashton - You have my undivided attention, so unless these "others" somehow have staked out a proprietary interest in the truth, I think it would be in the greater good to set forth the name.

The truth is, at this point in time, I can't prove the two psychiatrists knew each other (though I'be be flabbergastered if they didn't). Nor at this point can I prove it actually means anything if they did. Hopefully we all want the truth to come out. Sometimes that makes it prudent to hold back a little on providing info while research is ongoing so as to limit the possibility of /a/ scaring potential witnesses off and /b/ other researchers running interference. In my own mind, I have doubts that this particular offshoot from that other work will actually be used. If it's not, it won't mean it has no value at all. To help sort out what value it might have, it will be posted here.

Meanwhile, while you mull that over, and since the Paine name has come up, there is another curious intersection of the Paine contingent, Oswald, and the psychiatric underworld (but I repeat myself). That's with Dr. Wilhelm Kuetemeyer, one of the most curious cases in a stampeding herd of "curious cases."

Kuetemeyer has to have been a psychiatrist, having conducted "experiments on schizophrenics" prior to becoming involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler (ostensibly—that's a whole other story). Yet nowhere is he given the name he deserves, always being referred to by the euphimism "Professor of psychosomatic medicine." He is such a shadowy figure whose only connection to the scene seems to be through the equally smoky Volkmar Schmidt, whose "idea" was proposed to de Mohrenschildt for Oswald to meet the Paines.

And yet somehow, throught some mysterious method, somewhere, Kuetemeyer reportedly concocted a "psychological profile" of Lee Harvey Oswald. What a bizarre datum. How? Where? When?

These aren't rhetorical questions. If anyone has any further information it would be greatly appreciated.

And while the following begins to wander from the specific to the general, I am going to state here that we are in SCUBA gear now examing the below-the-water-line part of the iceberg. It is dark, hidden, and almost inconceivably massive, stretching away into black depths that never have been plumbed or viewed.

One of my idle wonderments is the comparison of the reports and evidences of abuses and atrocities we do have about CIA's mind-control projects and programs (and even that considerable mound, of course, only a fraction), versus the almost total vacuum that sits where the names of psychiatrists that had to have been planning and conducting it all for CIA should be. It's astounding.

And it's perhaps more astounding how very little anyone seems to notice this giant sucking hole in the record. It's almost as though people read about BLUEBIRD and MK-ULTRA, and somehow kind of figure that maybe a bunch of lay CIA bureaucrats and agents whose names they know must have been doing all the dirty work. It's almost funny in a very sad and even macabre way.

But one thing is certain: for everything CIA has coughed up about such crimes, nothing has been more jealously and scrupulously protected than their network of accommodating APA and AMA butchers. (I mean scientists and doctors, of course. A slip of the typing fingers.)

Thanks. Had forgotten about Kuetemeyer. Whilst Epstein reported on the Schmidt the connection, he is silent on any Oswald profile he may have done. Ditto Bartholomew. Ditto. Scott. The sole reportage of this profile seems to be in the so-called Unauthorised Bush Bio which is all over the net. No citation is proved and the authors themselves have dubious background connections. Our fellow member, Bill Kelly once interviewed Schmidt. Maybe he can be persuaded to post the transcript. I think Bill may have been searching for a Kuetemeyer - Dulles connection in that interview.

[Thomas Graves]

QUOTE(Greg Parker @ Nov 18 2006, 07:10 AM) *

Ashton, he may not have been oblivious to it, but Penfold's institute was at McGill, not the University of Montreal.

Ashton - Right, and while I've never been to Montreal, it appears to me on the map that McGill and the University of Montreal are only across Parc Mont Royal from each other, less than a mile. Each must find his own path through the CIA's maze of mirrors, but it's been my experience, in my wanderings, that they use proximate locations constantly in their tireless efforts at keeping their tracks covered and obfuscating connections. It disperses the attention of trackers in different directions and throws lots more "place names" into the swirling confusion that is their primary product.

Of course this does exactly what it's supposed to do, and as I said, no direct connection has been made between Hartogs and Penfield during this period. But the proximity, and an awareness of this as a favorite ruse is why I posted this about Hartogs and Penfield.

Fair enough.

Greg -There seems to have been more than one psych report from YH if you believe Florence Kelley. I'll try and find the newspaper article quoting her. Hartogs claimed this article is what jogged his memory on Oswald after the assassination. Trouble was, she quoted from a YH psych report which didn't match Hartogs' report obtained by the WC.

Ashton- Thanks. Yes, I have limited anecdotal information on this "twosie." If you can find the article I'd love to see it.

As soon as I can locate it, I'll provide the exact quotes from it. If I recall, it seemed to me at the time I read it, there was contradictory info as to her source on the report.

Greg - Whether or not Hartogs accurately reported "what went on", other health professionals in YH also wrote reports giving a similar picture. I do note that YH was painted as one of the better youth institutes by a former (many times) "guest" of that institute in the '50s.

Ashton - <SPIT!> They have plenty of "health professionals" and "former guests" of their mind-bending institutions in their pocket who will tell as many lies as needed, some of them for reasons I won't get into here since I don't like to gratuitously induce nausea.

Let me preface my response here by saying that I believe you are a valuable member of this forum - often providing new info and shart insight combined with great wit. With that in mind, how you conclude that all the evidence showing YH to be a "normal" institution is actually proof of the opposite is beyond my comprehension. Yes, both YH and Hartogs warrant close attention, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Here's some info on the guy you've just accused of possibly being in the pocket of the CIA: http://aalbc.com/authors/claudebrown.htm His book actually gives many accounts of what it was like in YH, and the types of "guests" they had.

Greg - Even though it may look like I disagree that YH and Hartogs are potential high yield investments in research time, that's far from the truth.

Ashton - No, I completely agree that all such factors, pro and con, should be aired and taken into account.

Good! Now we only have to agree on what's "pro" and what's "con"

Greg - Oswald's journey to Dealey Plaza imo, started during his time in NYC. Funny you should link Hartogs to Penfold through a university. I have him linked to another psychiatrist through the University of Frankfurt-am-Main. At least they both attended it at around the same time, and later would both live in NYC. As this research is ongoing and may have some significance in areas being looked into by others, I won't name him at this stage, but I'll toss out this teaser... he was closely associated with a member of Lyman Paine's inner circle.

Ashton - You have my undivided attention, so unless these "others" somehow have staked out a proprietary interest in the truth, I think it would be in the greater good to set forth the name.

The truth is, at this point in time, I can't prove the two psychiatrists knew each other (though I'be be flabbergastered if they didn't). Nor at this point can I prove it actually means anything if they did. Hopefully we all want the truth to come out. Sometimes that makes it prudent to hold back a little on providing info while research is ongoing so as to limit the possibility of /a/ scaring potential witnesses off and /b/ other researchers running interference. In my own mind, I have doubts that this particular offshoot from that other work will actually be used. If it's not, it won't mean it has no value at all. To help sort out what value it might have, it will be posted here.

Meanwhile, while you mull that over, and since the Paine name has come up, there is another curious intersection of the Paine contingent, Oswald, and the psychiatric underworld (but I repeat myself). That's with Dr. Wilhelm Kuetemeyer, one of the most curious cases in a stampeding herd of "curious cases."

Kuetemeyer has to have been a psychiatrist, having conducted "experiments on schizophrenics" prior to becoming involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler (ostensibly—that's a whole other story). Yet nowhere is he given the name he deserves, always being referred to by the euphimism "Professor of psychosomatic medicine." He is such a shadowy figure whose only connection to the scene seems to be through the equally smoky Volkmar Schmidt, whose "idea" was proposed to de Mohrenschildt for Oswald to meet the Paines.

And yet somehow, throught some mysterious method, somewhere, Kuetemeyer reportedly concocted a "psychological profile" of Lee Harvey Oswald. What a bizarre datum. How? Where? When?

These aren't rhetorical questions. If anyone has any further information it would be greatly appreciated.

And while the following begins to wander from the specific to the general, I am going to state here that we are in SCUBA gear now examing the below-the-water-line part of the iceberg. It is dark, hidden, and almost inconceivably massive, stretching away into black depths that never have been plumbed or viewed.

One of my idle wonderments is the comparison of the reports and evidences of abuses and atrocities we do have about CIA's mind-control projects and programs (and even that considerable mound, of course, only a fraction), versus the almost total vacuum that sits where the names of psychiatrists that had to have been planning and conducting it all for CIA should be. It's astounding.

And it's perhaps more astounding how very little anyone seems to notice this giant sucking hole in the record. It's almost as though people read about BLUEBIRD and MK-ULTRA, and somehow kind of figure that maybe a bunch of lay CIA bureaucrats and agents whose names they know must have been doing all the dirty work. It's almost funny in a very sad and even macabre way.

But one thing is certain: for everything CIA has coughed up about such crimes, nothing has been more jealously and scrupulously protected than their network of accommodating APA and AMA butchers. (I mean scientists and doctors, of course. A slip of the typing fingers.)

Thanks. Had forgotten about Kuetemeyer. Whilst Epstein reported on the Schmidt the connection, he is silent on any Oswald profile he may have done. Ditto Bartholomew. Ditto. Scott. The sole reportage of this profile seems to be in the so-called Unauthorised Bush Bio which is all over the net. No citation is proved and the authors themselves have dubious background connections. Our fellow member, Bill Kelly once interviewed Schmidt. Maybe he can be persuaded to post the transcript. I think Bill may have been searching for a Kuetemeyer - Dulles connection in that interview.

______________________________

Verrrry in-ter-rest-tink thread!

--Thomas--

______________________________

[Ashton Gray]

<SPIT!> They have plenty of "health professionals" and "former guests" of their mind-bending institutions in their pocket who will tell as many lies as needed, some of them for reasons I won't get into here since I don't like to gratuitously induce nausea.

...[H]ow you conclude that all the evidence showing YH to be a "normal" institution is actually proof of the opposite is beyond my comprehension. Yes, both YH and Hartogs warrant close attention, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

I'm afraid my expectorative onomatopoeia lost something in translation.

It was a perhaps-too-pithy commentary on the entire field of uncorroborated anecdotal information, and especially on the number of flat-out anecdotal lies I've encountered and documented from psychiatric "health professionals" and some of their "former guests"—not a damp indictment on the particular Youth House at issue.

But it also embodies this sentiment: a front is a front is a front, and they don't generally have big red neon signs over the door flashing, "We're a CIA psychiatric feeder unit. We do mind control better." Any front damned well better have some service they are providing to the community they are in, or something they are producing besides kaleidoscope-eyed mouth-breathing political assassins or lobotomized cardboard box dwellers. Don't you think?

The point being that some public gushing endorsement doesn't mean diddly to me. I consider it utterly irrelevant. I would be amazed if such didn't exist, and the more hideous the purpose of front, the more effusively laudatory would I expect the PR to be. These aren't dolts running intelligence operations, y'know? So the point is that for me, the presence or not of "gee whiz" PR materials is a complete null.

What I consider relevant is that Oswald went into the place, and the only information we have about what he was doing and what was done to him (or even where he actually was) for two weeks is a couple of conflicting reports, one from a serial sex-offender psychiatrist, schooled in Nazi Germany and Montreal, who apparently was in charge of the place.

Other than that—surrrrre, let's hear a "success story." Why not.

The truth is, at this point in time, I can't prove the two psychiatrists knew each other (though I'be be flabbergastered if they didn't). Nor at this point can I prove it actually means anything if they did.

Okay. Please note carefully that I didn't ask you to prove anything. Did somebody? I can't prove Hartogs knew or studied with Penfield, and said so loud and clear. But little pieces add up to big pictures, and sometimes pieces fit and sometimes pieces don't fit, but the ones that get buried in the litter box aren't ever going to be part of the picture. That's pretty certain.

Hopefully we all want the truth to come out.

Devoutly to be wished.

Sometimes that makes it prudent to hold back a little on providing info while research is ongoing so as to limit the possibility of /a/ scaring potential witnesses off and /b/ other researchers running interference.

All right. As you see fit. We have a difference of opinion.

...ince the Paine name has come up, there is another curious intersection of the Paine contingent, Oswald, and the psychiatric underworld (but I repeat myself). That's with Dr. Wilhelm Kuetemeyer, one of the most curious cases in a stampeding herd of "curious cases."

Kuetemeyer has to have been a psychiatrist, having conducted "experiments on schizophrenics" prior to becoming involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler (ostensibly—that's a whole other story). Yet nowhere is he given the name he deserves, always being referred to by the euphimism "Professor of psychosomatic medicine." He is such a shadowy figure whose only connection to the scene seems to be through the equally smoky Volkmar Schmidt, whose "idea" was proposed to de Mohrenschildt for Oswald to meet the Paines.

And yet somehow, throught some mysterious method, somewhere, Kuetemeyer reportedly concocted a "psychological profile" of Lee Harvey Oswald. What a bizarre datum. How? Where? When?

Thanks. Had forgotten about Kuetemeyer. Whilst Epstein reported on the Schmidt the connection, he is silent on any Oswald profile he may have done. Ditto Bartholomew. Ditto. Scott. The sole reportage of this profile seems to be in the so-called Unauthorised Bush Bio which is all over the net. No citation is proved and the authors themselves have dubious background connections. Our fellow member, Bill Kelly once interviewed Schmidt. Maybe he can be persuaded to post the transcript. I think Bill may have been searching for a Kuetemeyer - Dulles connection in that interview.

Yes, that's certainly the only source I've found for the reference, and I certainly hope something else comes up on this. There are several points about it that I find striking.

One is the language about "a detailed psychological profile." Allow me to direct your attention to this brief excerpt from the testimony in Congress before the Watergate Committee by the pathological xxxx and CIA Director (but I repeat myself) Richard Helms:

• RICHARD HELMS: [O]ver a period of some years, the Agency [CIA] had developed a technique for putting together a lot of information about a foreigner—maybe a foreign statesman or a foreign dignitary—and then attempting to analyze, uh, what sort of a human being he was. These things were called, variously, I think "psychological profiles"—as good a title as any..."
  

Another thing that strikes me is Kuetemeyer's purported involvement in the assassination plot against Hitler mentioned as the reason for his having "gone into hiding." Yet he doesn't seem to appear in historical accounts of the plot.

In direct relation to the above, yet another thing that strikes me is that prior to his going into hiding after the 20th July 1944 attempted assassination, Kuetemeyer is reported to have been involved in "conducting experiments on a group of schizophrenics." The only types of "experiments" I know of being done after December 1939 in Germany on mentally ill people were those done to find the best way to murder them in wholesale lots—these psychiatric atrocities in the "Euthanasia Program" being the precursor to the Holocaust.

This now brings me back to Renata Hartogs. Hartogs says he had been practising as a psychologist in Belgium for three years prior to coming to the United States on 4 December 1940. And maybe he was. But with a medical degree? That qualified him to practice psychiatry. Yet he insisted on making the distinction in testimony, making a specific point that it was merely psychology he had been practicing—none of that messy stuff.

Whatever Hartogs or Kuetemeyer (also Kütemeyer) may have been doing in Germany and/or Belgium, I still think it worth mentioning that by December 1940, when Hartogs came to the United States, over 26,000 patients already had been put to death in the "T-4 Euthanasia Program" according to The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust. By the time Kuetemeyer purportedly "went into hiding" in 1944, the "Final Solution" had been developed out of the earlier psychiatric pioneering in mass murder and was well under way.

And, no: that doesn't prove anything.

Ashton

Edited November 20, 2006 by Ashton Gray