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A shot from the South West knoll has a problem


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8 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Here is another couple of factors to consider for a frontal shot thru the windscreen NOT happening....

Greer and Kellermen's reactions from Z220 to Z240.......

Greers head/face/eyeballs were 18" or probably less from the spot a bullet is supposed to have punctured its way thru the windshield, Kellermens maybe  30" to 36" away .......Have you ever been driving a car or sitting in the front seat when a stone/rock flies up and hits the windshield??? Its pretty hard not to miss the sound and crack on the windshield........Kellermen and Greer never react to a thru and thru shot....NEVER.....Anyone here honestly believe if those two agents saw a bullet come thru the window only a foot or two from there heads they would not have assumed they were under attack and accelerated and zig zag the F@#k out of there. Stuff happening from behind them is confusing....a bullet thru the glass a foot from your eyes....NOT VERY CONFUSING

Two police officers and 8 to 12 people were standing on the overpass above elm street.....Do you honestly think I could stand on the overpass above commerce street and fire a rifle at the limo coming down Elm....and no one would see me standing 30 to 40 feet away.  It is a straight line of sight behind the overpass wall....no where to hide   from one end to the other....clear straight line. SO NO NOBODY ever stood above commerce street on the overpass and fired a miracle shot just over the windshield,  just under the partition chrome, just past Connally into JFK's throat and then had the round vanish from existence.

Chris above you speak of how rounds thru slanted windshields are pulled downward from there point of entry....100% correct ..........do you know who the only person ever seen in the plaza at the time of the shooting that day who was in a possible position to maybe...maybe(a 100 million to one) to make a shoot thru the the windshield that would be pulled downward and maybe hit the president.....JAMES TAGUE...................but guess what he was captured on film and photos....and never had a rifle. 

OH and one more thing

A shot thru the windshield from front to back striking the president in the throat  NEVER HAPPENED

 

PS.  how did they fake the white house garage photos taken of the limo by SS and FBI within the first 18 hours of arriving back in Washington DC.....How did they get false testimony from white house garage staff, Secret Service agents and FBI agents during that first 18 to 24 hours in the White House Garage.  Windshield damage YES  thru and thru front to back,

NO NEVER HAPPENED      

After that first 24 hours..............anything could of happened to that strike.....so the ford guys could have been presented with a hole....but none of them saw that limo inside the first 18-24 hours at the white house garage, so their evidence is moot. 

I have considered Greer and Kellerman and the lack of reaction. It could be convincing evidence of no shot. On the other hand it could be due to complicity in a conspiracy. Greer did not seem to react to the shot at all. At Z255 Connally is alarmed and turning around. Kennedy is in obvious distress but 5 seconds after Greer is moving at 8mph! It is possible that Greer and Kellerman were part of the conspiracy to kill JFK. If not for that possibility I would say there is a 99% chance that the shot never happened. But personally I am convinced by the Parkland doctors that a shot came from the front or at the very least a big hole in his head was covered up. I am not here to debate that issue but because it convinces me I have to consider the involvement of our intelligence community and the SS.
Regarding a shot from the top of the overpass that went over the windshield I am not promoting that idea The line of sight may be there, as I think I said somewhere, but I am considering the problem of the South Knoll as it relates to the windshield hole.
 Not sure about a "One in a million" shot. Snipers talk about making specific calculations for firing through a windshield. The largest deflection would be in the vertical and would just hit JFK lower not miss him. If the sniper knows the type of vehicle and the angles beforehand it would be very beneficial and a JFK assassin would have had that info.
""PS.  how did they fake the white house garage photos taken of the limo by SS and FBI within the first 18 hours of arriving back in Washington DC.....How did they get false testimony from white house garage staff, Secret Service agents and FBI agents during that first 18 to 24 hours in the White House Garage.  Windshield damage YES  thru and thru front to back,""
 You don't have to fake photos in the 1st 18 hours. You have to alter them before they become public or as evidence in a trial.
""How did they get false testimony from white house garage staff""  Maybe they covered the windshield when not inspecting it themselves. Maybe they told the staff to stay away from the limo. Maybe they swore them to secrecy(That has been proven to be effective as many witnesses kept their silence till the HSCA  happened and they were relieved of their commitment to silence).

The idea that because the ford guys saw the limo many hours later does not make their testimony "moot" that is absurd. If they saw a hole in the limo windshield as they replaced it then where that hole came from is a valid question. Do I even need to say that?

This "Never happened" opinion is just that, an opinion, not a fact. Arguing opinions as facts is more of a pissing contest than an enlightening discussion of the facts and theories. I am not interested in debating opinions like it never happened or definitely happened.

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1 hour ago, Evan Marshall said:

I was the original training sgt for the SWAT Team in Detroit and we found that amour piercing rounds did not deflect near as much and frankly rounds thru windshields did all sorts of unpredictable things.

As a training specialist for the National Nuclear Security Administration's office of secure transportation we had access to all sorts of classified rounds but most were a refinement of earlier efforts and AP rounds existed before 1963.

That is interesting but I have to ask, what would an armor piercing round due to JFK's neck? And with your experience I would like to ask if there is anything in the Altgens 6 image comparison that I posted above that strikes you as significant pro or con?

Edited by Chris Bristow
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I was the original training sgt for the SWAT Team in Detroit and we found that amour piercing rounds did not deflect near as much and frankly rounds thru windshields did all sorts of unpredictable things.

As a training specialist for the National Nuclear Security Administration's office of secure transportation we had access to all sorts of classified rounds but most were a refinement of earlier efforts and AP rounds existed before 1963.

 

An ap round would produce a caliber sized hole going in and out but again I cannot tell you how many times we recovered bullets at Homicide scenes that we would not figure out how they ended up where they did and since neither the body or limo were subjected to a thorough and professional search we've got to dig a lot deeper.

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12 hours ago, John Butler said:

What a bizarre Z frame!

zap223 connally.jpg

Z 223 crop from John Costella's z frames:

z-223-crop.jpg

So I don't know what guys like Chris and Chris do to get some accuracy or pin point accuracy in their work.  There are always skeptics.

John, witnesses like the Newman's who said the head shot happened right in front of them are, imo, a good source and give us good idea of the location. They do not dispute the representations of their locations in Nix or the film taken right afterwards when they are still laying in the spot they dropped to.
I measured Connally from the center of his tie to the end of his left shoulder then doubled it. That measurement is way wider than Jackie.
 Off topic but it is funny how Connally said he was hit then looked down to see he was covered with blood. I don't see any blood in 223.
As far as faking things with the timing and location of the limo the problems are huge and the entire film would have to be a cut and paste recreation if they are doing more than just taking a limo stop out.  You can measure the angle of the limo as it changes relative to Zapruder every few frames. All the reflections on the limo change frame by frame and the shadows change as they wind down Elm.
To match it to the Nix film  you have the problem that the limo is partly obscured by people on the grass in Nix so you can't just reposition it, you have to patch it together from other images in the film
Even if they just took the limo stop out they would have to reanimate people like Foster because if you took out 2 seconds of limo stop her image would jump.
If you literally cut and pasted original elements of the film you would not have to worry about matching grain or color temperature but if you start adding things it might be impossible to perfect. The issue has many rabbit holes and requires experts in several different fields to really evaluate how they could fake it. That said too many witnesses saw the limo stop for me to think the Z film is unaltered.

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1 hour ago, Evan Marshall said:

I was the original training sgt for the SWAT Team in Detroit and we found that amour piercing rounds did not deflect near as much and frankly rounds thru windshields did all sorts of unpredictable things.

As a training specialist for the National Nuclear Security Administration's office of secure transportation we had access to all sorts of classified rounds but most were a refinement of earlier efforts and AP rounds existed before 1963.

 

An ap round would produce a caliber sized hole going in and out but again I cannot tell you how many times we recovered bullets at Homicide scenes that we would not figure out how they ended up where they did and since neither the body or limo were subjected to a thorough and professional search we've got to dig a lot deeper.

Thanks for the answer.

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Chris,

Thanks for the response.  I didn't measure Jackie and John's shoulders at first.  She just appeared to be wider.  After your post I went back and lightened the crop so you can see Connally's whole form.  I measured that against Jackie's and she came out just a tiny fraction wider.

As far as trusting Newman, I don't.  His first statements are a bit wild and unverified by others.  He sees Kennedy standing in the vehicle.  I think in his first statement he gave the impression he was closer to the TSBD than other media shows him.  I have reservations on Bill Newman.  Why pick him or several others when you have 50 + witnesses saying the shooting of the president happened in the intersection and in front of the TSBD?  It because of the all pervasive influence of the Zapruder film over the last 40+ years since it was shown on TV.

I base my allegations of fraud and fakery in the Zapruder film on its content problems and not its technical merits.  I am not great with anything technical.  The content problems such as the 19 people I call Mannequin Row between the lamppost and the Stemmons sign on whether they were there or not.  Whether there was anyone on the railroad such as Officer Foster and 10 railroad men when Altgens took Altgens 7.  The Johnson security vehicle with two rear ends one in the front and the other where it should be.  Phil Willis' extra long leg.  etc.

My original idea on how to fake the Z film was you really don't have to change anything except the contents of the presidential limousine.  That idea is supported by some frames in Zapruder that don't quite put all of the limo back after a cut and paste, I think if memory is working right that z 157 is a good example. 

Simply transfer the action from the intersection to down in front of the Grassy Knoll.  Then you can have shooting from the rear which is not likely if the shooting occurred in the intersection.  The imagery from the Zapruder Gap in my opinion is what we see there.   

Edited by John Butler
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1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Chris,

Thanks for the response.  I didn't measure Jackie and John's shoulders at first.  She just appeared to be wider.  After your post I went back and lightened the crop so you can see Connally's whole form.  I measured that against Jackie's and she came out just a tiny fraction wider.

As far as trusting Newman, I don't.  His first statements are a bit wild and unverified by others.  He sees Kennedy standing in the vehicle.  I think in his first statement he gave the impression he was closer to the TSBD than other media shows him.  I have reservations on Bill Newman.  Why pick him or several others when you have 50 + witnesses saying the shooting of the president happened in the intersection and in front of the TSBD?  It because of the all pervasive influence of the Zapruder film over the last 40+ years since it was shown on TV.

I base my allegations of fraud and fakery in the Zapruder film on its content problems and not its technical merits.  I am not great with anything technical.  The content problems such as the 19 people I call Mannequin Row between the lamppost and the Stemmons sign on whether they were there or not.  Whether there was anyone on the railroad such as Officer Foster and 10 railroad men when Altgens took Altgens 7.  The Johnson security vehicle with two rear ends one in the front and the other where it should be.  Phil Willis' extra long leg.  etc.

My original idea on how to fake the Z film was you really don't have to change anything except the contents of the presidential limousine.  That idea is supported by some frames in Zapruder that don't quite put all of the limo back after a cut and paste, I think if memory is working right that z 157 is a good example. 

Simply transfer the action from the intersection to down in front of the Grassy Knoll.  Then you can have shooting from the rear which is not likely if the shooting occurred in the intersection.  The imagery from the Zapruder Gap in my opinion is what we see there.   

Newman was not the only one to say JFK stood up. And many said they were in front of the TSBD but were making  general statements. You may be 100 feet to the side and 100 feet to the front of a building  but I could see them calling that being "In front of" the TSBD. I give those statements some latitude.
Maybe an hour after the event Brehm said he and his son were standing on Commerce. They were on Elm of course, but had walked across Commerce just a few minutes before. We often mix up our memory by combing events that did not happen together. I think placing the shots heard with the location of the limo will have many wrong  accounts. The whole thing happening in a matter of seconds and makes it even more unreliable. 
I think the best testimony is that with lots of corroborating witnesses. You said the shot on the corner had 50 witnesses. I thought that was an early missed shot, not the neck or head shot and that they mostly stated that there were additional shots afterwards. So I am not sure what it shows other than many did not hear that 1st shot and took the 2nd shot as the first.
Connally's wife said JFK never spoke a word. An SS agent in the Cadillac said he yelled "I been shot". (that would have to be the shallow back wound before the neck shot cause how could he yell after the throat shot), point is they both should be credible but one has to be 100% wrong. I think we should expect every witness to get some stuff wrong.

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Chris Bristow writes:

Quote

As far as faking things with the timing and location of the limo the problems are huge and the entire film would have to be a cut and paste recreation if they are doing more than just taking a limo stop out.  You can measure the angle of the limo as it changes relative to Zapruder every few frames. All the reflections on the limo change frame by frame and the shadows change as they wind down Elm.
To match it to the Nix film  you have the problem that the limo is partly obscured by people on the grass in Nix so you can't just reposition it, you have to patch it together from other images in the film
Even if they just took the limo stop out they would have to reanimate people like Foster because if you took out 2 seconds of limo stop her image would jump.
If you literally cut and pasted original elements of the film you would not have to worry about matching grain or color temperature but if you start adding things it might be impossible to perfect. The issue has many rabbit holes and requires experts in several different fields to really evaluate how they could fake it. That said too many witnesses saw the limo stop for me to think the Z film is unaltered.

Chris gives a good account of some of the very serious practical problems that would have had to be overcome to fake the Zapruder film. I'm not so sure about his final remark, however: "too many witnesses saw the limo stop for me to think the Z film is unaltered".

I presume he's referring to Vincent Palamara's article, 'Fifty–nine Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street': https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16241#relPageId=5 . In fact, only about 13 of Palamara's 59 witnesses claimed consistently and unambiguously that the car stopped, and only 5 of those 13 actually had a clear view of the car.

To put it another way, of the 31 quoted witnesses who had a clear view of the car or who were passengers in the car, fewer than one in six stated consistently and unambiguously that the car stopped. And of course there were many other witnesses in Dealey Plaza with a clear view of the car who mentioned nothing about the car slowing down or stopping, and who for that reason were not included in Palamara's list.

A large majority of the 59 quoted witnesses either claimed that the car slowed down rather than stopped, or claimed only that cars further back in the motorcade, rather than the presidential car itself, slowed down or stopped.

There's a full account at http://22november1963.org.uk/did-jfk-limo-stop-on-elm-street, which concludes:

Quote

A large majority of the witnesses’ statements are consistent with what can be seen in the three home movies: President Kennedy’s car slowed down but did not stop during the shooting. If the car did come to a complete halt, several other things must also have happened:

  • well over 80% of the witnesses who had a clear view of the car did not notice that it had stopped;
  • the Zapruder film was altered to disguise this event;
  • the Nix film was altered to match the altered Zapruder film;
  • and the Muchmore film, which remained undeveloped until it was sold to UPI on 25 November, was altered to match the altered Zapruder and Nix films.

It is much more likely, of course, that those few witnesses who stated unambiguously that the car stopped had simply misremembered one detail of a very brief, unexpected and traumatic event, and that the reason why a large majority of witnesses failed to report the car stopping was because the car did not in fact stop.

 

Edited by Jeremy Bojczuk
Credited the wrong Chris. Duh!
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12 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Newman was not the only one to say JFK stood up. And many said they were in front of the TSBD but were making  general statements. You may be 100 feet to the side and 100 feet to the front of a building  but I could see them calling that being "In front of" the TSBD. I give those statements some latitude.
Maybe an hour after the event Brehm said he and his son were standing on Commerce. They were on Elm of course, but had walked across Commerce just a few minutes before. We often mix up our memory by combing events that did not happen together. I think placing the shots heard with the location of the limo will have many wrong  accounts. The whole thing happening in a matter of seconds and makes it even more unreliable. 
I think the best testimony is that with lots of corroborating witnesses. You said the shot on the corner had 50 witnesses. I thought that was an early missed shot, not the neck or head shot and that they mostly stated that there were additional shots afterwards. So I am not sure what it shows other than many did not hear that 1st shot and took the 2nd shot as the first.
Connally's wife said JFK never spoke a word. An SS agent in the Cadillac said he yelled "I been shot". (that would have to be the shallow back wound before the neck shot cause how could he yell after the throat shot), point is they both should be credible but one has to be 100% wrong. I think we should expect every witness to get some stuff wrong.

A lot of if then and maybes as far as witnesses go according to what you are saying.  I don't see selecting some from others as a realistic option.  Neither one of us were there so therefore we have to rely on what they said rather than impose our own interpretations on their statements. 

"You said the shot on the corner had 50 witnesses"

What I said was the whole assassination took place in the intersection and in front of the TSBD according to 50 + witnesses.

Actually Chris, there is enough reasonable doubt on just about anything about the assassination and that is why people are still trying to find answers to what happened.  It is nearly impossible to get folks to agree on any particular aspect of the shooting.

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The problem in all this, of course, is that we never had a thorough crime scene search of the limo and we didn't have an open and honest autopsy. Clint Hill reported a gaping hole on the rear of JFK's head. Until we can resolve those cover ups we're at a serious disadvantage.

 

Remember one of the SS agents in the vehicle talked about a flurry of shots entering the limo. I was ambushed twice while a cop and shot at on a number of occasions. I quickly learned to recognize gunfire  AND NOT ALL COPS AT THE SCENES DID AND i HAD TO YELL AT SOME TO TAKE OVER ON REPEATED OCCASIONS.

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The presidential limo arrived back at the white house garage between 9:00pm and 9:35pm Nov 22nd.

Between 1:35am and 4:30am Nov 23rd, the Secret Service and the FBI photographed the limo.

At 10:00am on Nov 23rd this guy from Ford Motor Company arrives at the white house garage...

He returns to the white house garage and the limo on the 24th Nov.

On the 25th of Nov he calls a Virginia glass company and has them come to the white house garage
that day to remove the windshield.

He returns to the white house garage on Nov 27th to fix the blood stained carpeting on the back floor of the limo.

The white house upholsterer is working on the carpeting piece up until Friday Nov 29th.

He returns Monday the 2nd of December to the white house garage and installs the carpeting and metal frame 
work/trim to the rear limo floor.

Subject: Subject: The JFK Limo at the White House Garage - Ford Memo 12/18/63
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:25:52 -0500
From: Pamela McElwain <pamelam@primenet.com>


I'm including below a typed copy of a document that was sent to me
some time ago on a general request from the National Archives for data
on the limo SS-100-X. I am not finding a document number for it, am
requesting that from NARA, but do find numbers for two similar
documents, also inter-company Ford memos regarding "Changes in the
White House 'Bubbletop'".  They are 180-10112-10188 and
180-10505-10086.  Both are also 2-page memos, and their status is
"Postponed in full".

This document is both puzzling and fascinating to me, because it
indicates that the original intent of the SS was to put the limo back
into service as quickly as possible.  It is quite pathetic to think of
this lonely man, Vaughn Ferguson, trying to clean the blood away from
the seat cushion buttons with his pen knife, and trying to clean the
carpet.  For some reason (well the SS DID need a good parade car for
the President) the fact that an assassination had just occurred in
this vehicle, and that even if it could be put back into service,
driving in it might not bring good luck, was no deterrence to
expediently correcting the damage to the car; this decision had to
have been made made at the time the limo was returned to the White
House garage.

It was, then, at some time subsequent to this memo, (which relates to
the days immediately following the assassination, though written on
December 18th), that the decision was made to send the car to Ohio on
December 12 for rebuilding as an armored vehicle.

Also note Ferguson's description of the windshield, its removal, and
the sequence of action on the limo lap robes.  The 'lap robes' were
blankets carried in the side pockets of the rear of the limo, used
when the weather was cool, yet the top down, to keep the passengers
warm.

(Markley and Ferguson were Ford Company employees; Morgan Geis was
SAIC of the White House Garage.  btw, it is odd that SS-100-X was
referred to as the WH 'Bubbletop' as the car usually referred to by
that name was the Eisenhower Lincoln. And the plastic top on SS-100-X
that was referred to as the 'bubbletop' was the only top for this car;
it had a 'leatherette' cover that was placed over it to make it look
like an enclosed sedan.  This was what was done at Parkland Hospital,
for example.)

Ford Motor Company  Washington Office
Intra-Company Communication December 18, 1963

TO: R.W. Markley, JR.
FROM: F. Vaughn Ferguson
Re: Changes in White House "Bubbletop"

On November 23rd, the day following the President's assassination, I
went to the White House garage in response to a telephone call to my
home from the Secret Service.  When I arrived about 10:00 a.m., the
White House "Bubbletop" was in a stall in the garage with two Secret
Service men detailed to guard it.  A canvas cover was over the unit. I
was permitted only to see the windshield of the car and then only
after the guards had received permission from higher ranking Secret
Service personnel.  Examination of the windshield disclosed no
perforation, but substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from
the center of the windshield at a point directly beneath the mirror.

I was at the garage only about one hour that day, but while I was
there Morgan Geis contacted the Secret Service and told them to have
me make arrangements to replace the windshield.

The following day, when I returned to the garage, the unit was no
longer under guard.  The Secret Service had cleaned the leather
upholstery the day before, but underneath the upholstery buttons dried
blood was still in evidence.  On my own initiative, I pulled up these
upholstery buttons and with a knife removed the caked blood around
them.  At this time, there was a heavy odor of dried blood still
noticeable.  There was a large blood spot on the floor covering which
the Secret Service had not been able to remove, but I did nothing
further about it that day.

In response to my call of November 25, personnel from Arlington Glass
came to the White House garage that same day to replace the
windshield.  The Arlington Glass personnel advised Morgan Geis and me
that removal would cause additional damage to the windshield but Geis
told them to go ahead and remove it anyway.  The Arlington Glass
personnel did remove it by putting their feet against the inside of
the windshield and pushing it out.  In doing so, additional cracks
formed (downward to the bottom of the windshield).  A Mr. Davis of the
Secret Service then took the windshield and put it in the stockroom
under lock and key and I have not seen it since.

That same day, November 25, I tried to clean the blood spot on the
carpet with only moderate success.  Late that afternoon I called Hess
and Eisenhardt who agreed to send new carpeting including masking and
binding.  It was also that day that Morgan Geis called my attention to
a dent in the chrome topping of the windshield at a point just above
the rear view mirror and asked why I hadn't fixed it while I was at
it.  I told him that my experience with chrome had been that in trying
to remove a dent of that size lead only to additional marks that
further marred the trim. In addition, the dent is not visible when the
top is on the unit.

On November 26th, late in the afternoon after I had left, the carpet
masking and binding arrived at the garage from Hess and Eisenhardt.
When I got to the garage on the 27th and was told that the carpeting
material was in, I contacted Morgan Geis who arranged with the White
House upholsery man to receive the metal piece containing the carpet,
remove the old carpeting, replace it with the new carpet, and return
the piect to me for reinstallation in the "Bubbletop."  This
upholsterer did not complete the job until late Friday afternoon the
29th.

On the morning of December 2nd, the re-carpeted piece was delivered to
me by a Secret Service agent named Davis and I then reinstalled it.
Also on the 2nd of December I noticed that the two lap robes had a few
blood spots on them, but, more than that, were soiled from handling
and required cleaning.  The White House chauffeurs were detailed to
take the lap robes to Fort Myer for cleaning.  These persons remained
with the lap robes until they were cleaned and returned the same day.

I think this represents a complete account of changes made in the
"Bubbletop" since November 22.

F.V. Ferguson
Edited by Adam Johnson
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13 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Chris Bristow writes:Chris gives a good account of some of the very serious practical problems that would have had to be overcome to fake the Zapruder film. I'm not so sure about his final remark, however: "too many witnesses saw the limo stop for me to think the Z film is unaltered".

 

https://youtu.be/q0Ta8PsYJfU?list=WL

Jeremy, I think the qualifier "consistently and unambiguously" is too strict and does not allow for slight variations in the accounts. Many witnesses said it "stopped or almost stopped". This would imply it went so slow that many could not tell if it was fully stopped or almost stopped. slightly ambiguous but consistently stated that way by many witnesses.
I believe I have read close to all the witness statements from multiple law enforcement agencies that day to the WC and later interviews. Having read those I found that some skeptics bend the truth a bit and some add those 'qualifiers" that skew the results. If the limo did stop I would expect some witnesses to miss the stop entirely due to the intense drama of the event. Also witnesses in front and behind would not recognize the motion of the limo as well as those watching from the sides.
If it didn't stop I would not expect to see a lot of reports that it did stop, unless you can find a reason. For instance maybe the car behind rushed up so quickly and closed the gap that people mistook that for the limo slowing way down.
There was a witness right there at the head shot that did not see it stop. Because of their proximity I would be inclined to make a snap judgement. But Nellie Connally said Jfk never said a word, yet an SS agent in the follow up car said he clearly heard JFK say "I been shot". He remembers that "damn Boston accent". Both Witnesses are credible and both were just feet away from JFK. Both can't be right so we have to discount one of those reports. My point is even highly credible close up accounts can be wrong.
 Hargis was the closest to the limo and he has said it stopped, but later said "slowed way down" and I think at least once said it happened just the way we see it in the Z film. How do we make sense of that? Well in the video clip of Hargis below(I think from the eighties) he says something very telling. Before he admits the limo "Slowed" and seconds later elaborates "That it slowed down almost to a stop", he says "Now this is not to be shown publicly but". 
 So consider this. The Z film had been made public maybe 10 years before so why does he not want his retelling shown publicly? The answer is because his story does not match the Z film! The second thing you can take from it is some witnesses contradict the Z film and they are not willing to go public with it.
 Maybe Hargis was wrong, maybe all the witnesses were wrong and it did not stop. but if we take an honest look at the witness statements there are closer to 30 who saw it slow to almost a stop or completely stop. That is compelling.
  https://youtu.be/q0Ta8PsYJfU?list=WL

 

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6 hours ago, John Butler said:

A lot of if then and maybes as far as witnesses go according to what you are saying.  I don't see selecting some from others as a realistic option.  Neither one of us were there so therefore we have to rely on what they said rather than impose our own interpretations on their statements. 

"You said the shot on the corner had 50 witnesses"

What I said was the whole assassination took place in the intersection and in front of the TSBD according to 50 + witnesses.

Actually Chris, there is enough reasonable doubt on just about anything about the assassination and that is why people are still trying to find answers to what happened.  It is nearly impossible to get folks to agree on any particular aspect of the shooting.

I just can't remember any witnesses who implied that the whole assassination happened in front of the TSBD. Do you have a list or partial list? As far as who to believe and who to throw out I am trying to rely on reports with lots of other collaborating witnesses.

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4 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

The presidential limo arrived back at the white house garage between 9:00pm and 9:35pm Nov 22nd.

Between 1:35am and 4:30am Nov 23rd, the Secret Service and the FBI photographed the limo.

At 10:00am on Nov 23rd this guy from Ford Motor Company arrives at the white house garage...

He returns to the white house garage and the limo on the 24th Nov.

On the 25th of Nov he calls a Virginia glass company and has them come to the white house garage
that day to remove the windshield.

He returns to the white house garage on Nov 27th to fix the blood stained carpeting on the back floor of the limo.

The white house upholsterer is working on the carpeting piece up until Friday Nov 29th.

He returns Monday the 2nd of December to the white house garage and installs the carpeting and metal frame 
work/trim to the rear limo floor.

Subject: Subject: The JFK Limo at the White House Garage - Ford Memo 12/18/63
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:25:52 -0500
From: Pamela McElwain <pamelam@primenet.com>


I'm including below a typed copy of a document that was sent to me
some time ago on a general request from the National Archives for data
on the limo SS-100-X. I am not finding a document number for it, am
requesting that from NARA, but do find numbers for two similar
documents, also inter-company Ford memos regarding "Changes in the
White House 'Bubbletop'".  They are 180-10112-10188 and
180-10505-10086.  Both are also 2-page memos, and their status is
"Postponed in full".

This document is both puzzling and fascinating to me, because it
indicates that the original intent of the SS was to put the limo back
into service as quickly as possible.  It is quite pathetic to think of
this lonely man, Vaughn Ferguson, trying to clean the blood away from
the seat cushion buttons with his pen knife, and trying to clean the
carpet.  For some reason (well the SS DID need a good parade car for
the President) the fact that an assassination had just occurred in
this vehicle, and that even if it could be put back into service,
driving in it might not bring good luck, was no deterrence to
expediently correcting the damage to the car; this decision had to
have been made made at the time the limo was returned to the White
House garage.

It was, then, at some time subsequent to this memo, (which relates to
the days immediately following the assassination, though written on
December 18th), that the decision was made to send the car to Ohio on
December 12 for rebuilding as an armored vehicle.

Also note Ferguson's description of the windshield, its removal, and
the sequence of action on the limo lap robes.  The 'lap robes' were
blankets carried in the side pockets of the rear of the limo, used
when the weather was cool, yet the top down, to keep the passengers
warm.

(Markley and Ferguson were Ford Company employees; Morgan Geis was
SAIC of the White House Garage.  btw, it is odd that SS-100-X was
referred to as the WH 'Bubbletop' as the car usually referred to by
that name was the Eisenhower Lincoln. And the plastic top on SS-100-X
that was referred to as the 'bubbletop' was the only top for this car;
it had a 'leatherette' cover that was placed over it to make it look
like an enclosed sedan.  This was what was done at Parkland Hospital,
for example.)

Ford Motor Company  Washington Office
Intra-Company Communication December 18, 1963

TO: R.W. Markley, JR.
FROM: F. Vaughn Ferguson
Re: Changes in White House "Bubbletop"

On November 23rd, the day following the President's assassination, I
went to the White House garage in response to a telephone call to my
home from the Secret Service.  When I arrived about 10:00 a.m., the
White House "Bubbletop" was in a stall in the garage with two Secret
Service men detailed to guard it.  A canvas cover was over the unit. I
was permitted only to see the windshield of the car and then only
after the guards had received permission from higher ranking Secret
Service personnel.  Examination of the windshield disclosed no
perforation, but substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from
the center of the windshield at a point directly beneath the mirror.

I was at the garage only about one hour that day, but while I was
there Morgan Geis contacted the Secret Service and told them to have
me make arrangements to replace the windshield.

The following day, when I returned to the garage, the unit was no
longer under guard.  The Secret Service had cleaned the leather
upholstery the day before, but underneath the upholstery buttons dried
blood was still in evidence.  On my own initiative, I pulled up these
upholstery buttons and with a knife removed the caked blood around
them.  At this time, there was a heavy odor of dried blood still
noticeable.  There was a large blood spot on the floor covering which
the Secret Service had not been able to remove, but I did nothing
further about it that day.

In response to my call of November 25, personnel from Arlington Glass
came to the White House garage that same day to replace the
windshield.  The Arlington Glass personnel advised Morgan Geis and me
that removal would cause additional damage to the windshield but Geis
told them to go ahead and remove it anyway.  The Arlington Glass
personnel did remove it by putting their feet against the inside of
the windshield and pushing it out.  In doing so, additional cracks
formed (downward to the bottom of the windshield).  A Mr. Davis of the
Secret Service then took the windshield and put it in the stockroom
under lock and key and I have not seen it since.

That same day, November 25, I tried to clean the blood spot on the
carpet with only moderate success.  Late that afternoon I called Hess
and Eisenhardt who agreed to send new carpeting including masking and
binding.  It was also that day that Morgan Geis called my attention to
a dent in the chrome topping of the windshield at a point just above
the rear view mirror and asked why I hadn't fixed it while I was at
it.  I told him that my experience with chrome had been that in trying
to remove a dent of that size lead only to additional marks that
further marred the trim. In addition, the dent is not visible when the
top is on the unit.

On November 26th, late in the afternoon after I had left, the carpet
masking and binding arrived at the garage from Hess and Eisenhardt.
When I got to the garage on the 27th and was told that the carpeting
material was in, I contacted Morgan Geis who arranged with the White
House upholsery man to receive the metal piece containing the carpet,
remove the old carpeting, replace it with the new carpet, and return
the piect to me for reinstallation in the "Bubbletop."  This
upholsterer did not complete the job until late Friday afternoon the
29th.

On the morning of December 2nd, the re-carpeted piece was delivered to
me by a Secret Service agent named Davis and I then reinstalled it.
Also on the 2nd of December I noticed that the two lap robes had a few
blood spots on them, but, more than that, were soiled from handling
and required cleaning.  The White House chauffeurs were detailed to
take the lap robes to Fort Myer for cleaning.  These persons remained
with the lap robes until they were cleaned and returned the same day.

I think this represents a complete account of changes made in the
"Bubbletop" since November 22.

F.V. Ferguson

I agree putting the limo back into service like that is the strangest part of the scenario. So completely morbid I can't accept that they would really even consider it except to cover up evidence.
The other thing is the story of the ford manger who saw the limo in Detroit on Sunday or Monday. It can't be true if Ferguson is truthful.
Ferguson made one mistake when he put the crack in the wrong place. 
"Examination of the windshield disclosed no perforation, but substantial cracks radiating a couple of inches from the  CENTER of the windshield at a point DIRECTLY BENEATH the mirror". I also find it weird that he offered up the fact that there was no perforation instead of just noting the crack. He was not an investigator and his plan was just to pop out the window and replace it. He also documented the lengthening of the cracks as they removed it. When Cter's say the windshield in the archives has different cracks the story of the lengthening cracks is offered up as part of the explanation. That is fine and expected but a strange coincidence that Ferguson decided to document it when he was just the guy directing repairs. 
 Ferguson is completely at odds with the Detroit managers story. The detailed accounts can't be just bad memory, The limo had the windshield removed in D.C. or Detroit not both. Someone is lying.
 The Detroit manager only has his word, no other witness came forward. On the other hand the CIA is known for changing/faking documents and getting people to keep their mouths shut.

Note: the CT theory that the archive windshield has a different set of cracks(different angles) than the Garage photos is not valid. I reproduce the angles on glass with tape and found when you match the different camera angle of each, they change exactly as the archive and garage photos do.

 

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Zoom in and take a look at chrome windshield piece between the sun visors at love field 11/22/63

Also notice how large the rear vision mirror is.

https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/11774/image-of-the-empty-presidential-limousine-waiting-at-love-fi?ctx=fb6edab5-558d-41fa-a966-e60f7569aa5b&idx=49

Click on this pic of limo and zoom in on windshield........i see a mark and a single crack line in nurses uniform......something odd though i dont see any chrome damage

https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/11868/image-of-empty-limousines-outside-parkland-hospital?ctx=f36776c3-3853-41da-ac4b-63d1b6d7a45a&idx=7

 

Edited by Adam Johnson
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