Chris Bristow Posted July 17, 2019 Author Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said: I like the way you phrased your question Chris. I noticed DVP weighs in with one piece of physical evidence, which is good, but ultimately DVP and other LNer's shy away from questions of intent such as these. Because inevitably they are left with nothing to say but Oswald was a "loser" failed in every aspect of his life, yet always they come back to an intensely ambitious person, out to make a name for himself, who ultimately when faced with the accumulated failures of his everyday life just unthinkingly struck out and pursued a self destructive course, not considering any consequences, unable to think ahead enough to manage the most elementary coverup. Would their contention be that Oswald simply "snapped". They've never been detailed or clear about that. Yet ultimately he could impart no message, because he denies his wrongdoing. I'm not sure I can think of any other such profiles that they would cite that would fit with Oswald. He was a loser despite the fact that he had managed to accomplish more, seen more places and cultures in his short 24 years, than the great majority of us have see have seen in our lifetime. But the more primary and one dimensional they can depict Oswald, the easier they can craft an explanation. When you ascribe a specific motive to Oswald's Behavior the contradictions become apparent. Marina said his Russian was so good she thought he was native born. That's not a dumb guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Oswald never had a chance to escape because he didn't know he needed to until after the assassination actually happened. Then it was too late. When he heard that JFK had really been shot, then he realized he needed to get the hell out of Dallas. Up to that point he didn't have a clue what was really happening. He'd been told something might happen, a protest, a security test as Vince Palamara suggests or a faked attempt on JFK's life to scare him into attacking Cuba, something along this line. I personally think he wasn't where he was supposed to be or he would have been caught and killed at the TSBD. When he realized what had really happened, he ran. To the only place he thought he might have a contact with a match for his torn in half dollar bill, the Texas Theater, why he was moving around, sitting by different people. But that was a trap itself. Somehow the DPD knew so quickly where to find him, and he'd been abandoned and set up, he was a patsy. Amazing he survived the TSBD and Texas Theater. Reasonable, logical, speculation? As opposed to the official fairy tale? JMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said: Oswald never had a chance to escape because he didn't know he needed to until after the assassination actually happened. Then it was too late. When he heard that JFK had really been shot, then he realized he needed to get the hell out of Dallas. Up to that point he didn't have a clue what was really happening. He'd been told something might happen, a protest, a security test as Vince Palamara suggests or a faked attempt on JFK's life to scare him into attacking Cuba, something along this line. I personally think he wasn't where he was supposed to be or he would have been caught and killed at the TSBD. When he realized what had really happened, he ran. To the only place he thought he might have a contact with a match for his torn in half dollar bill, the Texas Theater, why he was moving around, sitting by different people. But that was a trap itself. Somehow the DPD knew so quickly where to find him, and he'd been abandoned and set up, he was a patsy. Amazing he survived the TSBD and Texas Theater. Reasonable, logical, speculation? As opposed to the official fairy tale? JMO. 500 N Beckley is 7-8 blocks from the Texas Theatre. Plenty of time to walk there from where Whaley let him out and saw him continue South, and buy popcorn. As the guy in charge of the place said he did. Then again he said he saw one Oswald taken out the front, and another brought down from the balcony and taken out the back. https://www.google.com/maps/place/500+N+Beckley+Ave,+Dallas,+TX+75203/@32.7454696,-96.828947,16z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x864e999ae861c781:0xc5c5ac3d259c7df7!8m2!3d32.7489222!4d-96.8228704 Edited July 17, 2019 by Ron Bulman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 12 hours ago, Ron Bulman said: 500 N Beckley is 7-8 blocks from the Texas Theatre. Plenty of time to walk there from where Whaley let him out and saw him continue South, and buy popcorn. As the guy in charge of the place said he did. Then again he said he saw one Oswald taken out the front, and another brought down from the balcony and taken out the back. https://www.google.com/maps/place/500+N+Beckley+Ave,+Dallas,+TX+75203/@32.7454696,-96.828947,16z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x864e999ae861c781:0xc5c5ac3d259c7df7!8m2!3d32.7489222!4d-96.8228704 Whilst Lee was taken to Oswald's apartment in the Station wagon? Interesting theory, Ron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 The answer to the thread's topic is a resounding NO.... (When is the FBI - who has been monitoring his mail thru the first months of 1963 - aware of his ordering and picking up both a rifle and a pistol... as there are no contemporaneous reports mentioning these activities.... all physical evidence incriminating Oswald comes into existence on Nov 22 and after, as if it never existed before.... amazing.) Oswald would have needed a plan.... According to Wesley, he does not ask for a ride home until Thursday... Here's my take on what his "plan" would need to involve.... https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-on-november-22-1963 But then again most ain't gonna learn what they don't wanna know.... DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Curtis Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 19 hours ago, Chris Bristow said: I do think Oswald's actions are that of an innocent man. I only posed these questions has an interesting thought experiment. Your thought experiment also serves to put the lone nut idea in proper perspective. It neatly highlights much of what is wrong with the lone nut canard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: The answer to the thread's topic is a resounding NO.... (When is the FBI - who has been monitoring his mail thru the first months of 1963 - aware of his ordering and picking up both a rifle and a pistol... as there are no contemporaneous reports mentioning these activities.... all physical evidence incriminating Oswald comes into existence on Nov 22 and after, as if it never existed before.... amazing.) Oswald would have needed a plan.... According to Wesley, he does not ask for a ride home until Thursday... Here's my take on what his "plan" would need to involve.... https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-on-november-22-1963 But then again most ain't gonna learn what they don't wanna know.... DJ Great article David. There are so many at K & K, kind of like threads here I've missed and never read, I could spend months on end perusing the archives of both. So Ozzie had no plan to assassinate JFK (after all he admired him, if you believe anything Marina said), just all happenstance, fly by the seat of your pant's, actions of an impulsive lone nut. Right. He didn't need a plan since he didn't shoot JFK or Connally. Since he didn't plan to or shoot either, he didn't need a plan to get away. In a moment of brainstorming, any idea is worth consideration, I thought, he's a victim product of his employer the CIA's MKULTRA project. David Phillips, David Morales or one of those guy's met him for lunch on Thursday the 21'st and slipped him a four way hit of Windowpane or Orange Sunshine and suggested why don't you go see Marina tonight? He was still trippin the next day at 12:30 and thought, I've got to get the hell out of here. But he came down real fast in the Texas Theater. I probably shouldn't post this, some lone nut out there might take the last part seriously. Ah, what the heck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kozlowski Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 23 hours ago, Ron Bulman said: Oswald never had a chance to escape because he didn't know he needed to until after the assassination actually happened. Then it was too late. When he heard that JFK had really been shot, then he realized he needed to get the hell out of Dallas. Up to that point he didn't have a clue what was really happening. He'd been told something might happen, a protest, a security test as Vince Palamara suggests or a faked attempt on JFK's life to scare him into attacking Cuba, something along this line. I personally think he wasn't where he was supposed to be or he would have been caught and killed at the TSBD. When he realized what had really happened, he ran. To the only place he thought he might have a contact with a match for his torn in half dollar bill, the Texas Theater, why he was moving around, sitting by different people. But that was a trap itself. Somehow the DPD knew so quickly where to find him, and he'd been abandoned and set up, he was a patsy. Amazing he survived the TSBD and Texas Theater. Reasonable, logical, speculation? As opposed to the official fairy tale? JMO. You say you believe Oswald wasn’t where he was supposed to be? Where do you think he was told to be? I don’t think whoever was setting him up wanted him on the 6th floor as he would see who and what was actually happening at the window and putting him somewhere else in the building at the time of the shooting couldn’t really guarantee him being captured and killed right away. What’s your theory on what he thought he was supposed to be doing that day and why he didn’t do as he was told? I’m just curious on what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 (edited) Reading Marina Oswald's WC testimony we get her account of Lee Oswald's plans to shoot at General Edwin Walker including his escape and ditching of the gun ( burying this ) until he could get it later. Lee's Walker shooting plan was quite detailed and well thought out. According to Marina's recollection Lee Oswald did a lot of prep work for this fascist kill mission. He took photos of Walker's house ( wonder what camera he used? ) he planned bus travel routes and times and created maps and made entries in a note book. He had a physical escape running route planned until he could find a later evening - farther away city bus to catch home. Lee had a gun ditching plan. Lee probably did some gun cleaning and scope alignment and even taken some target shooting just before the Walker attempt according to Marina. So on 11,22,1963 we have Lee Harvey Oswald supposedly taking on a monumentally much more risky JFK kill effort that he couldn't have had much secure pre-planning for considering the unknowns of his work duties that day, getting the rifle to his work place ( risked Buell Wesley Frazier seeing his wrapped package ) and up to the 6th floor unnoticed just hours before JFK's motorcade passed his work building, the exact timing of the motorcade and having the 6th floor to himself at just that right brief window of opportunity time period, etc., etc. And with the gun kept and wrapped in a blanket at the Paine residence for weeks Lee couldn't have had it available for cleaning and alignment or even practice shooting right up until minutes before he supposedly used this on JFK? And if Oswald did the JFK shooting, he must have known his immediate escape from his 6th floor perch would have been an absolute possible suicide mission. This wasn't a well planned General Walker - one shot - patient aiming turkey shoot in the dark cover of night with no eyewitnesses effort. The JFK shooting was a hurried one in broad daylight with hundreds of people/witnesses just yards below him and Oswald must have known the powerful gun shot sounds would have drawn someone's sight to his direction and location. Maybe when Lee left his wedding ring in Marina's cup before he left the Paine's house that morning he was truly anticipating his death that day? But, of course Lee could have had something better planned in an escape attempt imo than waiting for a city bus just blocks away, getting on and off and hailing a cab but still being a Southern gentleman and letting a cab needing women take his first ride. And what do we make of the normally tight-fisted Oswald actually tipping the cab driver a whole nickle!? Or, was Dallas sheriff Roger Craig correct in IDing Oswald as jumping into a Rambler station wagon just West and in front of the TXSCB Depository? Now that sounds like a planned escape. The bus taking, leaving, cab taking Oswald's escape plan sounded made up on the spot. Lee arming himself once he got to his N. Beckley rooming house sounds like he didn't know earlier that he may have to shoot someone to protect himself if caught. But who? His fellow conspirators who he now knew had betrayed him? Marina said in her WC testimony that Oswald did like to go to the movies. And mostly went by himself. Maybe Oswald went to the movies just because he wanted to? A war movie with Van Heflin would be just the kind of movie Oswald would like it seems. Through all this however, it is amazing to me that Oswald ( if he was the shooter ) could have done the 6th floor shooting and made it all the way down through and away from the TXSBD amidst all that heightened police presence and make his way back to his rooming house right after. What incredible chutzpa! And logistical luck! I think I would have had a major panic or even heart attack at some point in all that risky life and death drama. Edited July 18, 2019 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 If one buys the WC, then this is a serious problem. How on earth can anyone explain Oswald leaving the scene by a public bus, getting off and walking back to the scene of the crime, hailing a cab, offering it to a little old lady, then getting in and then taking the cab five blocks away from your rooming house? To me, that right there is enough for any person of normal intelligence and objectivity to raise his eyebrows about the WR. In fact, that actually is one of the things that made me do a double take about it. When you add in the matter of the Robinson/Craig sighting, and the landlady saying she saw Oswald standing at a bus stop headed the other way from 10th and Patton at about 1:03 or 1:04, then not only is what the WR says highly improbable, but you begin to see the outline of what they decided to discard in order to construct their dubious story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 (edited) From the invaluable Malcolm Blunt posted at ROKC: English bus10.jpg Root folder © 2019 Servimg.com Edited July 18, 2019 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 (edited) On that above memo, note that it went from Redlich to Willens and then to Ball and Belin. Willens was the go between from the management level to the working counsel level. Once the WC was up and running, Redlich was the workhorse for Rankin. He was aware of many of the problems and contradictions in the evidence. If one recalls, when Liebeler presented his memorandum objecting to the overstatements in the report in August, he got his butt chewed out by a combination of Rankin and Redlich: Rankin held him up, with Redlich doing the punching. I have become convinced that this is why Redlich hardly ever talked afterwards. He understood that every aspect of the WC story was filled with problems, as he himself states above and in numerous other places. But, as he said, "I work for the Commission." Which means, he was Rankin's B--CH. In other words, the point we are talking about here--Oswald having no escape plan-- was talked about back then. They papered it over, like they did everything else. Edited July 18, 2019 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Jim... If he USED THE TRANSFER - how could it still be in his pocket? Or am I asking the wrong question here.... 14 hours ago, Ron Bulman said: Since he didn't plan to or shoot either, he didn't need a plan to get away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 The transfer was discovered, like the extra bullets on Oswald, right before he went out for the line up. Reportedly, LHO said not a word about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 McWatters finally admits he was mistaken about OSWALD on his bus.... He claims to have given only 2 transfers out from that book he only received that morning.... 4452, 4453.... what happens to 4454 thru 4458 so that we get 4459 related to Oswald? ....I only put out two transfers and I told them that there was one man in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I could not do it. Mr. BALL - Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup as the passenger? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir. Mr. BALL - As the passenger who had gotten on? Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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