Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties

[W. Niederhut]

28 minutes ago, Joseph McBride said:

Thanks for your kind comments about my Spielberg book, Jim. Yes, Spielberg has taken the care

to educate himself in history. He is an autodidact, partly because he is dyslexic, which caused him

to be a weak student in high school. His historical films are carefully researched. I interviewed

35 Holocaust survivors to see what they thought of SCHINDLER'S LIST. They all said the same

things -- that it was so authentic it felt like being back there in the midst of those events, which is a high compliment. Their criticisms

were that the film, as violent as it is, was not as violent as the actual events -- even though the film pushes the envelope

on realistic violence and does not flinch from it, some of the stories they told me would have caused

people to run out of theaters, as Spielberg said when explaining why he didn't show SS men throwing

babies into the air and spearing them with bayonets for "fun" during the liquidation of the Krakow ghetto

(you can be sure Tarantino would have shown that). I heard one story from a survivor of the Plaszow camp that is the

worst Holocaust story I have ever heard, and that is saying a lot. The survivors also said Ralph Fiennes

was too handsome to play Amon Goeth, who was an ugly monster. Spielberg wanted to explore the human

nature of even such an evil man, so casting an actor who looked like a slug might have worked against it by

desensitizing the audience. But the survivors emphasized those were relatively minor complaints in

view of the film's overall honesty. They were deeply grateful for it. By the way, Polanski turned it down

because he was actually in the liquidation of the Krakow ghetto, and even he felt he was not ready

to deal with the subject of the Holocaust then (he later did with THE PIANIST). 

Hopefully, Spielberg will eventually make a historically accurate film about the Israeli snipers who have been shooting all of those Palestinian protesters in Gaza lately.

Also, why has Hollywood never produced a single movie about the 20 million Russians and Ukrainians murdered by Bolsheviks like Beria and Kaganovich in the worst holocaust in human history?

 

 

[Joseph McBride]

Spielberg did make MUNICH and predictably got pilloried for it.

[Anthony Thorne]

Fair play to Spielberg, I thought MUNICH was really good, as is Joe's biography, which I read again (updated version) a year ago.

 

[James DiEugenio]

JM: 

By the way, Polanski turned it down

because he was actually in the liquidation of the Krakow ghetto, 

 

Well, that is something I was not aware of.

[Joe Bauer]

Slightly odd coincidence with Tex Watson, Sharon Tate and Dallas, Texas.

Sharon Tate was born in 1943 ... in Dallas, Texas.

Tex Watson was born in 1945  ... in Dallas, Texas.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[Robert Harper]

 

 

 

On 7/28/2019 at 12:36 PM, Robert Harper said:

without their knowledge; this time, it was dressed up in academic garb, and - like Kinsey's studies - used a warped sampling to bombard an individual's brain, with  his or her reaction to stress, and the ability to withstand

 

[Cliff Varnell]

23 hours ago, Robert Harper said:

 

 

 

 

So Bryan Crusius raised his son Patrick to be an anti-social loner programmed to slaughter 22 people for the express purpose of arousing condemnation of white supremacy and give impetus to the banning of military-style assault weapons?

This strikes me as more QAnon conspiracy pornography to give legitimate study of deep events a black eye.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Cliff Varnell

[John Kozlowski]

On 8/4/2019 at 5:56 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Slightly odd coincidence with Tex Watson, Sharon Tate and Dallas, Texas.

Sharon Tate was born in 1943 ... in Dallas, Texas.

Tex Watson was born in 1945  ... in Dallas, Texas.

I read something last night that said they may have mutual friends years before the murders. Let me try to find the link. The article was interesting.

[Joseph McBride]

Sharon Tate's father was in Army Intelligence.

The "Manson murders" (per CHAOS) had connections

suggestive of the CIA's MK-ULTRA program.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Joseph McBride

[Pamela Brown]

On 8/7/2019 at 10:21 PM, Joseph McBride said:

Sharon Tate's father was in Army Intelligence.

The "Manson murders" (per CHAOS) had connections

suggestive of the CIA's MK-ULTRA program.

Also, by odd coincidence, Sharon Tate and her unborn child were killed by the Manson gang, who scrawled "Helter Skelter" at one crime scene. Roman Polanski was Sharon Tate's husband.  He filmed "Rosemary's Baby", which came out the year before, at the Dakota, where John Lennon was later killed...

[James DiEugenio]

Good interview with the author of Chaos.

I will be developing these points even further in my review.  

https://whowhatwhy.org/2019/08/09/everything-you-know-about-charles-manson-is-wrong/

[Lewis Reynolds]

Interesting radio show.

I know O'Neill wants to sell books, but it would be nice to have a little more information in the interviews he does.

Better order the book I suppose!

[Denny Zartman]

I've put an order for "Chaos" on hold at my local library, and look forward to reading it when my turn comes around. I'm sorry I wasn't watching this thread earlier. I saw Once Upon A Time... In Hollywood, and I enjoyed reading the film criticism here. The debate over the film, Quentin Tarantino, and depicting history in cinema is interesting.

[Ron Bulman]

My copy of this came in yesterday.  In perusing it before starting I thought 61 pages of end notes should mean it's well documented though I've referred to none of them yet.  I probably shouldn't give this away for any planning to read it but the first line of the prologue made me chuckle.  "Vincent Bugliosi was on another tirade."  Leading to "Bugliosi wanted to sue me".  Not just a tirade.  But, another tirade.

But it's not a funny subject.  I'd read before about multiple stab wounds, shocking numbers of them, the words on the wall and door in blood.  But the details of the crimes are just horrific.  I won't go into detail here for the sake of those who may read it for themselves.  Disturbing how one can convince others to do such, especially someone like Manson.

Up to page 83.  Though it's in reference to an associate of another character in the book I never expected to find the name of General Curtis LeMay in such a book.

[James DiEugenio]

That is where Tom gets into what I consider fantasy land.

I am almost done with my review.