Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

[Cory Santos]

8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson wrote, “I started up the stairs of the balcony because that is where the call said that he was hiding. I'm reasonably satisfied in my own mind that I met Oswald coming down. I was looking for a man in a white or light colored jacket because at that time I hadn't been told that he had discarded the jacket and that it had been found.”  He added that the man was wearing a patterned shirt.

Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers saw Cunningham, Taylor, and Toney questioning a young white man on the stairs.  These men were told by the “manager on duty” that the young man “had been in the theater since about 12:05 pm” and so they released him.  The information was erroneous.  The theater didn’t open until 12:45, and manager John Callahan left before the police arrived.  The only employees present were Postal, Burroughs, and the projectionist, none of whom identified themselves as the “manager on duty.”  

Who provided this man with a false alibi?  If this is the same guy who was led out the back door and put in a squad car, I don't know if it should be considered an arrest or not, despite the two Dallas Police reports that say Oswald was arrested in the balcony.  

Jim I appreciate your work.  However, this shows someone was questioned in the stairs.  This conflicts with being arrested in the balcony.  Two separate areas.   So it was not the same person.  

Where is there a report saying anyone was taken out the back and put in a car?   I still have not seen that.  

The more I reread theater testimony, particularly Postal's, the less credible Butch's testimony is.  He did not see Oswald go in.  Period.  So he cannot say he was there at 1.  

[Michael Cross]

2 hours ago, Denis Morissette said:

Not necessarily... Weird thinking.

As I  said.

[B. A. Copeland]

21 hours ago, John Kozlowski said:

Thanks!!!

Pleasure John 🍻.

[Jim Hargrove]

Cory,

But as I said, Jack Davis, sitting in the back row, pretty much corroborated Burroughs’ popcorn statement when he said that “Oswald” went into the lobby and came back into the theater “20 minutes or so” before the police arrived. 

It is simple to understand why the authorities lost the list of theater patrons. Main Floor Oswald created a scene by moving from patron to patron, undoubtedly seeking a contact he was told he could find there.  Several, perhaps most, of the patrons would have noticed Main Floor Oswald moving from seat to seat inside the theater too early to have killed Tippit, especially at the falsified time of 1:15, but even at the real time as well, most likely 1:06-1:08.

You keep saying the balcony Oswald was arrested, and now you conclude that he would not have been let go by the policemen who may have encountered him on the balcony stairs.  But despite the two police reports, it is not at all clear that Balcony Oswald was really arrested. That would surely produce too much paperwork. It appears more likely that he was given a false alibi by a “manager on duty” who didn’t exist and then hustled out of the theater, I believe under Captain Westbrook’s order. Balcony Oswald's job, to lead enraged cops to the theater to encounter Main Floor Oswald, was done.

Perhaps you’re looking at this whole thing as a normal cops and robbers case through an attorney’s practiced eye, but this case was anything but normal. There was an enormous cover-up orchestrated by J. Edgar Hoover and there were a handful of dirty cops in Dallas who, in one way or another, were probably involved in the plot.  

[John Kozlowski]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Cory,

But as I said, Jack Davis, sitting in the back row, pretty much corroborated Burroughs’ popcorn statement when he said that “Oswald” went into the lobby and came back into the theater “20 minutes or so” before the police arrived. 

It is simple to understand why the authorities lost the list of theater patrons. Main Floor Oswald created a scene by moving from patron to patron, undoubtedly seeking a contact he was told he could find there.  Several, perhaps most, of the patrons would have noticed Main Floor Oswald moving from seat to seat inside the theater too early to have killed Tippit, especially at the falsified time of 1:15, but even at the real time as well, most likely 1:06-1:08.

You keep saying the balcony Oswald was arrested, and now you conclude that he would not have been let go by the policemen who may have encountered him on the balcony stairs.  But despite the two police reports, it is not at all clear that Balcony Oswald was really arrested. That would surely produce too much paperwork. It appears more likely that he was given a false alibi by a “manager on duty” who didn’t exist and then hustled out of the theater, I believe under Captain Westbrook’s order. Balcony Oswald's job, to lead enraged cops to the theater to encounter Main Floor Oswald, was done.

Perhaps you’re looking at this whole thing as a normal cops and robbers case through an attorney’s practiced eye, but this case was anything but normal. There was an enormous cover-up orchestrated by J. Edgar Hoover and there were a handful of dirty cops in Dallas who, in one way or another, were probably involved in the plot.  

I don’t understand why they needed to risk using the other Oswald to attract attention to the theater. Wouldn’t it just be easier for Westbrook, Croy or whoever else was in the know to just radio in a call saying a passerby gave them the tip instead of placing the two of them in the same theater? Just seems like your exposing the plan to too many witnesses the way it was done. If Oswald wasn’t supposed to make it this far alive why was he looking for someone with the other half dollar bill?

[Ron Bulman]

That lost list of patrons has bothered me for years.  Convenient isn't it.  Joseph McBride mentions it in Nightmare.  Names of possibly up to a couple of dozen.  Never pursued, ignored, forgotten.  Nothing to see here, move on.  BS.  Why was it never entered into evidence.  Why was the Warren Omission not interested in such information?

Edited July 24, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

7 hours ago, Michael Cross said:

As I  said.

Well Michael.  Wasn't my intent to stir the nest but how far into the Texas Theater beyond the fact of Two Oswald's (is it 5 or 6 potential witnesses now, in spite of the missing list of them?) should we go?

Mc Bride cites Meagaher regarding the questionability regarding Mc Donald's account of the arrest.  Mc Donald says he had his gun drawn, crouching as he approached.  Facing a gun,  Oswald punched McDonald, then drew his gun.  And fired.  But it didn't go off.  McDonald said the hammer fell on a defective primer which was indented.  The FBI said none of such bullets  had any primer indentations.  Ozzie never pulled his gun?  McDonald wouldn't have fired first facing Oswald pulling his gun, when he already had his own drawn???

The last "shot" is quite interesting.

 

The original is better, even without video.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=happiness+is+a+warm+gun&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=c1fe38050691437cb330f4d2e9cb3421&sp=1&qs=EP&pq=happiness+is+a+&sc=8-15&cvid=c1fe38050691437cb330f4d2e9cb3421

Edited July 24, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Jim Hargrove]

Ron,

This is from memory, but I think John A. said there was an FBI report that “Oswald’s” pistol had a bent firing pin.  And another report saying it fired properly. Are we to believe that it had a defective pin in the theater but a working one at 10th and Patton minutes earlier?  It doesn’t make any sense.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, John Kozlowski said:

I don’t understand why they needed to risk using the other Oswald to attract attention to the theater. Wouldn’t it just be easier for Westbrook, Croy or whoever else was in the know to just radio in a call saying a passerby gave them the tip instead of placing the two of them in the same theater? Just seems like your exposing the plan to too many witnesses the way it was done. If Oswald wasn’t supposed to make it this far alive why was he looking for someone with the other half dollar bill?

John,

You’ve really put your finger on several key issues John A. and I have been discussing for years.  On the Murder of J.D. Tippit page on our website, John wrote:

According to researcher Leo Sauvage (who interviewed Dallas Assistant District Attorney Jim Bowie), "there were over a half-dozen anonymous phone calls made to the Dallas Police advising that a suspicious man had gone into the Texas Theater." I'll bet one of these phone calls was made by Tommy Rowe, a very close friend of Jack Ruby's. 

For several reasons, I doubt it was Westbrook or Croy who made any of the calls, but your point remains.  My belief is that this was an elaborately conceived and executed plot, both to kill JFK and to set up “Oswald” as the patsy, which included murdering Tippit.  My bet is there were plans and backup plans.

The planned murder of Tippit had several goals.  First was to provide an excuse to link the Oswald/Hidell wallet allegedly found at 10th and Patton (but probably provided by Tippit’s killer to Westbrook) to Classic Oswald®.   The second was to link the bullet’s that killed Tippit to “Oswald’s” pistol, which was probably switched when it stayed by Westbrook in DPD headquarters for more than an hour.  And lastly, the plan was to lead Dallas cops, angered by the killing of Tippit, to the Texas Theater.  If the Sauvage/Bowie account is correct about the multiple calls, then this was just done as a complement to it, sort of proving the point.

What the plotters could never get quite right (because they were juggling two Oswalds) was the minute-by-minute timing.  That’s why the police radio timestamps had to be altered, why Tippit had to be shot at 10th and Patton at the exact same time he was pronounced dead at Methodist Hospital, and why the identifications of the theater patrons had to disappear.  

[B. A. Copeland]

Was my posting of a link to ROKC against the ToS? If I've violated said terms, my apologies.

Edited July 24, 2019 by B. A. Copeland

[John Kozlowski]

2 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

Was my posting of a link to ROKC against the ToS? If I've violated said terms, my apologies.

I don’t even see a ToS unless I glanced over it. 

[James R Gordon]

B.A.

I deleted the links. There is a rule against references to banned members. I realise Greg is an acknowledged researcher and I was reluctant to delete the links since it may be that it was not a reference to Greg but his research.

I deleted because i was not sure where reference to Greg would end up.

I do not want reference and debate about Greg to dominate the forum.

However if members are only concerned with discussing Greg's research - and not Greg himself - I am happy for you to restore the link.

James.

[B. A. Copeland]

Ah...well, alright. It was just a topic in which members are currently discussing events relevant to the discussion here. I immediately thought of the topic at ROKC (since I was reading it recently) in response to John's earlier post.

[Ron Bulman]

I have to wonder if Butch Burroughs might not have had the same perspective regarding full disclosure immediately after and for several years to come of what he saw as the other Warren Omission witness regarding the Texas theater, George Applin.   And, if they might not have been spoken to about what they saw by official's in the day's after the assassination or "coached'" before their testimony as others were.

At the end of his WO testimony Applin says "But there is one thing puzzling me... And I don't even know if it has any bearing on the case, but there was one guy sitting in the back row right where I was standing at, and I said to him, "Buddy you better move.  There is a gun. … just setting there looking at me like this, just looking at me".

Applin told Commission Attorney Joseph Ball twice he didn't know the man, but in 1979 he told a reporter he recognized the man as Jack Ruby two days later, following the Oswald slaying.  Applin told the Dallas Morning news:

"At the time of the Warren Commission... my statement, I was afraid to give it.  I gave everything up to the point of what I gave the police there in town...  I'm a pretty nervous guy anyway because I'll tell you what: After I saw that magazine where all those people they said were connected with some of this had come up dead, it just kind of made me keep a low profile...

" And when Oswald pulled the gun and snapped it at [McDonald's] head and he missed and the darn thing wouldn't fire, that's when I tapped him on the shoulder and told him he had better move because those guns were waving around. He turned around and looked at me.  Then he turned around and started watching them". Pg. 352, Crossfire, 1st edition.

[Cory Santos]

Wait now Ruby was at the theater? Lol.  I would not give that witness any credibility.