Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

[Jim Hargrove]

9 hours ago, John Kozlowski said:

Of course they cut him off. Beckham knows a good bit of what went down the weekend of the assassination and the time leading up to it. Joan Mellon wrote that LJ Delsa and Robert Buras were suspended from the HSCA by Blakley for giving Beckham an unauthorized polygraph. He brought up Fred Lee Crisman and Buras and Adela’s wanted to have him investigated. Funny thing is Louis Stokes gave them permission to do so. Beckham ran with the guys in New Orleans and claimed he met with Oswald at the TSBD. 

Do you have any clue if he’s still alive? I thought I heard on a podcast he still was but am not certain on that.

Interesting question.  Beckham would still be in his seventies, and so he might well be alive.

We should note, however, that he testified to Garrison's grand jury and told a somewhat different story.  He said, for example, that he never met "Oswald," and that he was not in Dallas in 1963.  He did say he knew Ferrie, Banister and some of the other New Orleans characters, but not Shaw.  His very lengthy testimony is here:

https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/garr/grandjury/pdf/Beckham.pdf

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

There's a lot of good information, that should be pursued, on a few others here, e.g. Beckham and Brewer.  But reviewing the thread I thought of the topic, Two Oswald's in the Texas Theater and wondered about what I'd learned.  Please correct me but I think the following can now be said.

1.  Between 1:00 and 1:07 concessionaire Butch Burroughs is convinced someone came in the theater front doors but not on through the doors into his concession area behind the floor/orchestra seats.  He was never fully questioned about how he concluded such, (heard them shut?) but he seemed convinced of this, repeating it over time.  If he is correct such person would have to go up the stairs he also couldn't see to the balcony.  No other choice.

2.  During opening credits for the movie, after the advertisements for coming attractions and popcorn, customer Jack Davis has a stranger sit down beside him in the 900 seat theater with about 20 people in it.  After a minute the stranger gets up and goes and sits by another of the few patrons.  Then another.  Then he gets up and goes out to the concession area behind them. 

3.  Butch Burroughs sells popcorn to a man at 1:15 he later sees arrested and taken out the front door of the theater.  He later learns this man is named Oswald.  The Warren Omission claims Tippit was shot at 1:15 (it was earlier, closer to 1:05).

4.  Burroughs sees the man go back into the floor seats and sit by a pregnant woman.  The woman gets up and heads toward the bathrooms.

5.  Davis is "fairly certain(?)" he sees the man who sat by him earlier and went to the concession area come back in down the opposite aisle from the one close to him and sit down by another of the few customers.  

6.  Around 1:35  three doors down from the Texas Theater shoe store manager Johnny Brewer sees someone suspicious at the front of his store.  He follows him to the Texas Theater, but doesn't see him go in, yet tells ticket seller Julia Postal in the booth separate from but in front of the frond doors to call the police.

7.  Per author Leo Sauvage to author John Armstrong the Dallas Police Department receives up to a half dozen anonymous calls advising of a suspicious man entering the Texas Theater.  But the dispatch tapes for this period disappear.

8.  DPD dispatch does say at 1:46 a suspect is hiding in the balcony of the Texas Theater.

9.  Live (on tape) from the scene of the Tippit murder reporter Reiland says police were taking off because of a report of a man with a shotgun going into a local theater.

10.  Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson wrote "I started up the stairs to the balcony because that' where the call said he was hiding."

11.  Lt. Cunningham said the lady cashier said there's a young man upstairs, he just went up there.

12. Officer Paul Bentley's report says he as told by detective Toney the suspect is in the balcony.

13.  Oswald is arrested on the first floor, taken out the front door. Witnessed by Burroughs, Davis and others.

14.  3-4 minutes after this Burroughs sees a man who looked like he could have been Oswald's brother taken out the back door.

15.  Hobby shop (next to the shoe store managed by Brewer) owner Bernard Haire sees police bring a man out the back door of the Texas Theater, put him in a police car and drive him off.

16.  Tippit's autopsy report states the suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.

17.  DPD officer Stringfellow, the day After the assassination and arrest, stated in writing and signed to his superior, Oswald was arrested in the balcony.

Ron,

That looks like a very thorough summary.  In fairness, we should point out that some witness statements you summarized above were made long after the assassination.  Burroughs in particular has made some conflicting statements over the years.   On the other hand, he has said consistently since at least as far back as the 1990s that he saw a guy who looked like “Oswald” arrested in the balcony.

In addition to what you have summarized above, I’d also like to look at the big picture here.  Why do we always have so much evidence suggesting there were two Oswalds, two Oswalds active during the entire day of 11/22/63, active in and around Dallas for six weeks or so prior to the assassination, and, for that matter, for years prior to that?  

At 8:30 am on assassination day, while one Oswald was already at the TSBD, another showed a Texas driver’s license in the name of “Lee Oswald” or possibly “H. Lee Oswald” to buy beer from Jiffy store clerk Fred Moore.  Try as they might, the WC couldn’t get the white shirted Oswald seen by Mrs. Reid inside the TSBD into a brown shirt in time to be seen by Baker and Truly.   The evidence that one Oswald left Dealey Plaza in a Nash Rambler while the other rode in a bus and taxi is substantial.

One of the closest witnesses to the Tippit slaying, Domingo Benavides, thought Tippit’s slayer looked just like “Oswald” except his hair in back was different.  Police radio dispatches after the Tippit killing sought a man in a “white jacket” and “white shirt,” not a brown shirt.  One “Oswald/Hidell” wallet appeared in Westbrook’s hands at the Tippit muder scene, and yet another “Oswald/Hidell” wallet was taken from Oswald in a police car after his arrest.  Two wallets for two Oswalds.  

Even after “Oswald” was arrested there is credible evidence, compiled by a future mayor of Dallas, that another “Oswald” was seen in a car traced to J.D. Tippit’s close friend Carl Mather.  Mather was employed by Agency connected Collins Radio.  Mistakes in identities by eyewitnesses happen all the time, but many people were taken aback by the Mather connection here.

Even the earliest researchers realized that in the six weeks or so prior to the assassination, a fellow who looked like Oswald and often claimed to be “Oswald” was busy setting him up in Dallas and environs.  Sylvia Meagher described these actions in Accessories After the Fact in a section called “Two Oswalds.”

Here’s just a partial list.  Bear in mind that Classic Oswald® was demonstrably somewhere else during most of these encounters:

“Oswald” visits the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target;

On Nov. 2 “Oswald” visits Morgan's Gun Shop in Fort Worth.

Also on Nov. 2 “Oswald” visits the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership where he test drives a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car.

On Nov. 6 or 7 “Oswald” visits the Irving Furniture Mart for a gun part and is referred to the shop where Dial Ryder works.

On Nov. 15, “Oswald” goes to the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) and applies for a job and asks how high the Southland Building is and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.

On Nov. 20 “Oswald” hitch-hikes on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4 foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introduces himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald,” discusses the President's visit, and asks to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” is already working).

Despite the fact that several H&L critics have been mocking John A. and me for years and calling us all kinds of names, they know as well as we do that there is a trainload of evidence for two Oswalds.  The above is just a start at summarizing it.

 

[Steve Thomas]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It was George who was driven away in a police car,

Jeremy,

 

You could very well be right.

George Applin's affidavit is found in Box 2, Folder# 2, Item# 3 in the DPD Archives here:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

It was taken on the 22nd by Eunice Sorrells, who was a stenographer in Curry's office; and while Toney's name isn't on it, Applin's affidavit was witnessed by Arthurene Teague, who was a typist in the Forgery Bureau, where Toney worked.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

 

Steve Thomas

[John Kozlowski]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Interesting question.  Beckham would still be in his seventies, and so he might well be alive.

We should note, however, that he testified to Garrison's grand jury and told a somewhat different story.  He said, for example, that he never met "Oswald," and that he was not in Dallas in 1963.  He did say he knew Ferrie, Banister and some of the other New Orleans characters, but not Shaw.  His very lengthy testimony is here:

https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/garr/grandjury/pdf/Beckham.pdf

True but by the time he talked to Joan Mellon alot of the people he talked about were dead so he really had nothing to worry about. Not saying what he told herself the whole truth but it’s something to look into.

Edited August 28, 2019 by John Kozlowski

[Joseph McBride]

Mellen. A lot. Two Oswalds. FYI. There is an edit function here.

PS, good to see the title of the thread corrected!

Edited August 28, 2019 by Joseph McBride

[Steve Thomas]

On 8/28/2019 at 9:08 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Jeremy,

 

You could very well be right.

George Applin's affidavit is found in Box 2, Folder# 2, Item# 3 in the DPD Archives here:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

It was taken on the 22nd by Eunice Sorrells, who was a stenographer in Curry's office; and while Toney's name isn't on it, Applin's affidavit was witnessed by Arthurene Teague, who was a typist in the Forgery Bureau, where Toney worked.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

 

Steve Thomas

From JFK and the Unspeakable, by James Douglas p, 361

https://books.google.com/books?id=KS-6XrdalGkC&pg=PA361&lpg=PA361&dq=%22George+Applin%22&source=bl&ots=1jTd8TtRCF&sig=ACfU3U0A7VQ-QtdiVf2_hEoZYmni3vqVJQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj51oiUrabkAhUnjK0KHSzoAzY4ChDoATAAegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=%22George%20Applin%22&f=false

 

 

 

Footnote 823 (pp 486-487) is not included in this online version.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited August 3, 2022 by Steve Thomas

[Ron Bulman]

I wonder if there are any pictures available of Applin from that time.  Burroughs claimed the guy taken out the back looked like he could have been Oswald's brother.  Even a physical description, height, weight, age would be a start.  One from that day would be outstanding.  Bernie Haire described the clothing of the man he saw brought out the back door.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

I'm not aware of a physical description of George Applin, but his affidavit (see my post on page 18) describes him as "w/m, 21": white male, 21 years old. A picture of Applin with a police officer may well exist. See this page and scroll down:

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2051-time-to-kill-another-myth-there-was-no-second-oswald-arrested-at-the-theater

The photograph was identified as possibly being of Applin by Ed Ledoux, who I believe is a member of this forum.

I'd forgotten about Applin's claim to have seen and spoken to Jack Ruby in the Texas Theater. In my copy of Douglass's book (hardback, "Fourth Printing: August 2009" according to the copyright page), that text appears on page 362, not 361, and the footnote numbers are also increased by one, so "Applin got up from his seat.819" in the Google Books version reads "Applin got up from his seat.820" in my copy. The relevant footnotes appear on page 479, not 486-7. Anyway, the notes give Douglass's source as Earl Golz's article, 'Man Believes He Saw Ruby at Scene of Oswald's Arrest,' in the Dallas Morning News, 11 March 1979, p.32A. I haven't been able to track down a copy of that article online.

Applin's claim that he went to Butch Burroughs' concession stand before having his details taken by the police does not, as Jim suggested, imply that Applin left by the front of the building. A plan of the Texas Theatre reveals that the concession stand was at the back of the auditorium, and was separated from the lobby by a set of doors. The concession stand was in fact closer to one of the rear doors than to the front entrance. We know that the police officers who spoke to Applin had entered the auditorium by one of two doors which gave access to the auditorium from the alley behind the building. According to Bernard Haire, the alley was full of police cars, and a young white man was taken away in one of those cars. We know that Applin was taken away in a police car so that he could give a statement. We know that Haire did not see Oswald being escorted out of the front of the building. There's no reason to doubt that Applin left by the rear entrance that the police had used, and that Applin was the man whom Haire saw. Here is the plan:

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/utils/getfile/collection/po-arm/id/10936/filename/10935.pdfpage/page/2

George Jefferson Applin, Jr, a 21-year-old white man, was escorted by police officers from the rear of the building and then driven away in a police car. It really isn't difficult to see how this incident might have been mistaken for the apprehension of a different young white man in the same building at the same time. One more piece of sinister evidence for the ridiculous 'Harvey and Lee' theory is shown to be a simple, everyday misunderstanding.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Jeremy Bojczuk
Changed 'george' to 'George'

[Karl Hilliard]

If it hasn't been mentioned....Johnny Brewer stated to Vince Bugliosi [the trial film] that he saw Oswald sneak into the theater from his position in front of the shoe store...or at least from some distance. The  shoe store is a bridal shop now [213 W Jefferson] on the same side of the block. I will attempt to link a google map showing that the doors and ticket booth of the theater are so deeply inset that such an observation is ludicrous.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/213+W+Jefferson+Blvd,+Dallas,+TX+75208/@32.7431917,-96.8260671,3a,60.3y,51.8h,84.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si6u_xuJUITbpvS11vexEbA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x864e998e305a7679:0x3853c98ef9ce45e!8m2!3d32.743286!4d-96.825207?hl=en

[Steve Thomas]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

We know that the police officers who spoke to Applin had entered the auditorium by one of two doors which gave access to the auditorium from the alley behind the building. According to Bernard Haire, the alley was full of police cars, and a young white man was taken away in one of those cars. We know that Applin was taken away in a police car so that he could give a statement.

Jeremy,

 

Buhk, Cunningham, Talylor and Toney were riding together. This is from Buhk's after-action report: (from Box 2 of the DPD Archives).

Cunningham said:

I'm not sure where Ward's Drug Store is in relation to the Theater, or if Buhk moved the car to the alley after letting the other three out. Buhk said, "We brought him to City Hall", so I'm almost certain it was their car that took Applin downtown.

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

According to Dale Myers, Ward's Drug Store was across the street from the Theater on Jefferson at the corner of Jefferson and Madison.

 

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

Captain, Cecil Talbert was back in that alley too. Talbert was the Captain of the Patrol Division, Second Platoon 8:00 AM to 4:00 PM shift.

 

Report of Sergeant H.H. Stringer Personnel Bureau, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 40.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

 

Report of Paul Bentley Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 71

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

 

 

There is no report from Talbert in the DPD Archives concerning his actions on the 22^nd.

Talbert was in charge of the TSBD until Lumpkin showed up at 12:49 PM.

He was also at the site of Tippit’s shooting. That's where he and Bentley hooked up.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited May 4, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Karl Hilliard]

On 8/25/2019 at 12:58 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

 To those who say they will only pay attention to witness statements made in 1963 or 1964, I ask, “Explain why the list of theater patrons was lost?"

 

 

Did anyone ever interview the projectionist?  

Also.... An Overlooked Texas Theater Witness By Bill Drenas

Claims that he clobbered Oswald in the head with his shotgun--  http://www.billdrenas.com/articles/OverlookedTheaterWitness.html

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Karl Hilliard

[Jim Hargrove]

Karl,

Thanks much for the link to the Bill Drenas piece about his interview with Paul Bentley's nephew, C.F. Bentley.  Here's an excerpt from it that interested me (and I've added some boldface emphasis):

When the light turned green he traveled approximately 20 yards past the intersection when another police radio dispatch was broadcast that a suspect had entered the Texas Theater and was in the balcony. C. F. was almost directly in front of the Texas Theater at the time of this broadcast, and so he pulled into the first parking spot in front of the theater. He was the first squad to arrive there and as he got out of his car another arrived right after him. C. F. entered the front door of the theater with his shotgun and was told by a theater employee that the suspect had gone to the balcony. By this time there was another police officer beside him (name unrecalled) and they both went up the stairs to the balcony. As far as he could see there were 3 to 5 people in the balcony at that time, and he could hear voices saying turn up the house lights, but unfortunately the house lights were already on and it was still very difficult to see. At this time C. F.’s uncle Paul and another detective arrived in the balcony. Paul told C. F. to search everyone in the balcony and to get their names. Just as C. F. began to do this someone downstairs hollered, “The son of a bitch is downstairs!” All the officers turned and exited the balcony, ran down the stairs and turned left into the theater.

I'd sure like to know who hollered out that the s.o.b. "is downstairs."  According to Bentley, it diverted the immediate attention of the cops from the balcony.  My bet, just conjecture, is that it was Captain Westbrook.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

On 8/29/2019 at 5:45 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

George Jefferson Applin, Jr, a 21-year-old white man, was escorted by police officers from the rear of the building and then driven away in a police car. It really isn't difficult to see how this incident might have been mistaken for the apprehension of a different young white man in the same building at the same time. One more piece of sinister evidence for the ridiculous 'Harvey and Lee' theory is shown to be a simple, everyday misunderstanding.

There is no evidence that George Applin left the theater through the alley exit, nor is there evidence that he left the theater in time to be the man seen by Bernard Haire.  (He said he left the theater “later” after the police had questioned the customers.)  Nowhere in his affidavit or 1964 testimony does he say when he first saw Main Floor Oswald in the theater. 

Since the list of theater patrons vanished, we only have two eyewitnesses on the record as to when Main Floor Oswald arrived at the theater, Butch Burroughs and Jack Davis. Both witnesses say he was there before 1:15 pm, the time the WC wanted us to believe Tippit was murdered.  And Davis’s description of events suggests Main Floor Oswald may have created a scene because moved about in the theater, sitting right next to several different customers, which may be one of the reasons the customer list had to disappear.

By his own account, Applin was on the main floor, not the balcony, and so he had nothing to do with the Balcony Oswald.  According to the WC, citing the Postal/Brewer saga, Balcony Oswald entered the theater shortly after 1:30 pm, at least 20 minutes after Burroughs and Davis saw Main Floor Oswald inside the theater.  

At 1:45 pm, Postal called the police and said the suspicious man who ducked into the theater was hiding in the balcony.  At 1:46 pm, the Dallas Police dispatcher broadcast this message: “Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson ... supposed to be hiding in balcony.  

Two DPD reports say “Oswald” was arrested in the balcony.  For decades now, Burroughs has said he saw a man who looked like Classic Oswald® arrested in the balcony soon after Main Floor Oswald was captured.  That man was not George Applin.