Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

This is the sane interpretation of the Texas Theater episode:

- A generic young white man, the real-life, historical, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald, was arrested on the ground floor and escorted out of the front of the building.

- Another generic young white man, George Applin, was spoken to by the police on the ground floor and escorted out of the rear of the building, as witnessed by Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire.

- Burroughs was mistaken in recalling, several decades later, that George Applin was arrested.

- The police reports were mistaken in claiming that someone named Oswald was arrested in the balcony.

If, like Jim, we insist that neither Burroughs nor the police reports can possibly be mistaken, we are left with this insane interpretation of the Texas Theater episode:

- One long-term top-secret Oswald Project doppelganger was the one person recorded as being escorted by the police out of the front of the building.

- A second long-term top-secret Oswald Project doppelganger was the one person recorded as being escorted by the police out of the rear of the building.

- A third long-term top-secret Oswald Project doppelganger was the one person recorded as being arrested in the balcony of the building. This third doppelganger left the building by mysterious means, possibly hitching a ride on the 'Harvey and Lee' spaceship.

If, like Jim, we want to support the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, we must show that either Burroughs or the police, but not both, were mistaken. Otherwise we are left with three Oswalds in the Texas Theater. So, which one is mistaken: Burroughs or the police reports? And why?

[Jim Hargrove]

Here is John A's writeup from the Nov. 22 page on our website:

LEE OSWALD IS ARRESTED IN THE BALCONY AND TAKEN OUT THE BACK OF THE THEATER

Westbrook may not have seen HARVEY Oswald again after he was arrested, but he most likely saw LEE Oswald and may have escorted him out the back of the theater. Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson saw a young man in the balcony who looked identical to Lee Harvey Oswald. One police homicide report of Tippit's murder reads, "suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas theater at 231 W. Jefferson." At least two other DPD documents reported the arrest occurred in the balcony. In his report to Captain Gannaway, Dallas Police Detective L.D. Stringfellow wrote: "On Novemberr 22, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater, 231 West Jefferson Blvd., and was charged with the murder of President John F. Kennedy and the murder of Officer JD Tippit." How could several experienced, career police officers and detectives report that Oswald was arrested in the balcony, when he was arrested in the lower section?

After entering the Texas Theater Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson hurried up the stairs to the balcony and was "reasonably satisfied in his own mind" that he met Lee Harvey Oswald coming down the front stairs. Lt. Cunningham and Detective J.B. Toney encountered the same young man and began to question him. As Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers rushed up the stairs to the balcony, he saw the officers as they were questioning the young man. According to a Dallas police Homicide Report LEE Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the theater.

Sgt. Jerry Hill and Det. Paul Bentley were checking fire escapes in the balcony when Hill opened the exit door to the fire escape. Sgt. Stringer, standing in the alley below, heard someone inside the theater yell "We got him." The police officer inside the theater may have thought the man on the staircase, being questioned by Lieutenant Cunningham and Toney, was under ar­rest, which caused him to shout "we got him." This young man may have been wearing a white t-shirt and dark pants, which matched the description of the suspect as reported by the police dispatcher. But an unknown person, who identified himself as the "manager on duty," said the young man had been in the theater since 12:05 PM. The unidentified "manager on duty" may have been an accomplice who provided Oswald with a much needed alibi, as theater manager John Callaghan left the theater before the police arrived (Julia Postal, Butch Burroughs, and the projectionist were the only employees left in the theater). The young man was released. Sgt. Stringer, standing below in the alley, asked Hill if the suspect had been arrested. Hill looked back into the balcony area and said, "No, we haven't got him."

Something happened in the 2nd floor balcony that caused a police officer to yell, "We got him." Something caused veteran police officers to write reports that Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony. Something happened in the 2nd floor balcony.

After HARVEY Oswald was arrested and taken out the front of the theater, LEE Oswald was escorted out the back of the theater. There is no police report, no record of arrest, nor any mention of a person taken out the rear of the theater. Capt. Westbrook saw LEE Oswald shoot officer Tippit at 10th & Patton. Capt. Westbrook produced a 2nd Oswald wallet at 10th & Patton. Capt. Westbrook either planted or knew exactly where to find the suspect's jacket. Capt. Westbrook was the first police officer to arrive at the theater. Capt. Westbrook told his officers to cover (HARVEY) Oswalds face and get him out of here. Capt. Westbrook ordered police to compile a list of the names and addresses of theater patrons, a list that soon disappeared. Capt. Westbrook was the highest ranking officer at the Texas Theater, and it was likely that Capt. Westbrook escorted LEE Oswald out the rear of the theater. During author James Douglas's 2007 interview with theater concessionaire Butch Burroughs,  Burroughs said that he saw two different people arrested in the Texas Theater.  He saw (Harvey) Oswald's arrest and then, "three or four minutes later," watched as the Dallas police arrested "an Oswald lookalike."  Burroughs added that the second man arrested "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something."  Apparently, Butch Burroughs saw both Harvey and Lee at the Texas Theater.

 

 See the Dallas Police Homicide Report for J.D. Tippit and Detective L.D. Stringfellow's report, which both state that (LEE) Oswald was arrested in the balcony.

Bernard Haire, owner of a hobby shop two doors east of the theater, saw the police escort a young man who he thought was LEE Oswald out the rear of the theater. Perhaps the young man in the balcony, who was identified by Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson as LEE Oswald, was this man. For the next 25 years Mr. Haire thought he had seen the arrest of Oswald. If Bernard Haire and Butch Burroughs observed "LEE" Oswald taken out the back of the theater then who, if not Captain Westbrook, was responsible for escorting him out of the back of the theater? After all, it was likely Capt. Westbrook who watched his co-conspirator, LEE Oswald, murder Tippit at 10th Patton only a half hour earlier. After he was taken out the rear of the theater, someone (perhaps Croy) then drove LEE Oswald to a red 1961 Ford Falcon that was parked nearby. Croy told the Warren Commission that after leaving 10th & Patton he drove by the Texas Theater (how convenient).

On the other hand, recall that (HARVEY) Oswald, according to many reports and police statements, was arrested on the main floor of the theater.

 See Dallas Police reports indicating (Harvey) Oswald was arrested on the main floor and charged with the murder of President Kennedy and J.D. Tippit.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

I'm glad Jim agrees with me that Douglass's account of the Texas Theater incident is high on speculation and low on demonstrable facts.

Jim writes:

Quote

Mr. B. continues to pretend that James Douglass’s interview with Butch Burroughs provided information precluding an arrest of the Oswald lookalike in the balcony, while Mr. Douglass’s own published analysis of the interview clearly suggests otherwise.

I haven't been saying what Jim seems to think I've been saying. I haven't been saying that Burroughs' account negates the possibility of an arrest in the balcony.

The point I've been making, which Jim (and, as we now see, Armstrong) still doesn't appear to grasp, is that an arrest in the balcony (if it happened at all) was an entirely separate incident from Burroughs' recollection, 30 years after the event, of seeing someone who was not Oswald arrested on the ground floor.

If there was an arrest in the balcony, it cannot have involved the man Burroughs saw on the ground floor. If there was an arrest on the ground floor of someone who wasn't Oswald, it cannot have involved the man supposedly arrested in the balcony.

If you believe that there was an arrest in the balcony, and if you believe Burroughs' recollection (and Jim and his guru appear to believe both of these things), you must conclude that two Oswald imposters were arrested in the Texas Theater, one in the balcony and one on the ground floor. That makes three Oswalds arrested in the Texas Theater. This isn't difficult to understand, surely. And if there were three Oswalds arrested in the Texas Theater, bang goes Jim's beloved theory.

Jim writes:

Quote

[Douglass's] speculation was based on the information he received from Butch Burroughs, which, clearly in his opinion, did not preclude a balcony arrest.

Jim is correct: Burroughs' interview with Douglass, insofar as it is reported in Douglass's book, did not preclude an arrest in the balcony. But that's not the point at issue. The point is ... here we go again ... if there was an arrest in the balcony, it must have been a separate event to the arrest of an Oswald imposter on the ground floor. Again, that makes two fake Oswalds. 1 real Oswald + 1 fake Oswald + 1 fake Oswald = bang goes Jim's theory.

Douglass's excessive speculation was due to his desire to create a grand narrative of the assassination, fitting together as many different threads as possible. Jim's excessive speculation is due to his desire to promote a nonsensical theory that almost no-one takes seriously, a theory that is liable to make the general public think that everyone who questions the lone-nut account is a tin-foil-hat-wearing, moon-landings-denying lunatic.

The real-life, historical, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald was the only person arrested in the Texas Theater that day. George Applin was the young white man who was escorted by police officers from the rear of the building and driven away in a police car.

[Steve Thomas]

On 9/11/2019 at 8:30 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Here is John A's writeup from the Nov. 22 page on our website:

 In his report to Captain Gannaway, Dallas Police Detective L.D. Stringfellow wrote: "On Novemberr 22, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater, 231 West Jefferson Blvd., and was charged with the murder of President John F. Kennedy and the murder of Officer JD Tippit."

Deleted

Steve Thomas

Edited March 3, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

But Hoover wrote a memo on 11/22/63 saying that Oswald "went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for."  I'll try to find the actual memo.  There is no record that Classic Oswald ever went to Cuba.  If Hoover was right, it must have been another LHO.

[Guest Rich Pope]

On 7/24/2019 at 6:51 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Ron,

This is from memory, but I think John A. said there was an FBI report that “Oswald’s” pistol had a bent firing pin.  And another report saying it fired properly. Are we to believe that it had a defective pin in the theater but a working one at 10th and Patton minutes earlier?  It doesn’t make any sense.

Jim,

Your thinking is very spot-on here.  Again, it comes back to the guns used that day.  The Carcano rifle was defective as well as Oswald's .38 (possibly).  But your intuition is correct in that how could Oswald have killed Tippit with a gun in working condition, yet fail to fire right before he was arrested.  Here's a thought...why would Oswald go home to get a gun that didn't work?  

[Jim Hargrove]

Don't worry.  Someone will 'splain it.

[Jim Hargrove]

Mr. B’s repeated talking points about “three Oswalds” in the theater are just unsuccessful attempts to mock what most likely really happened there.  A second, but hardly a third, Oswald is so much a part of Kennedy assassination research that even the earliest investigators, such as Sylvia Meagher, discussed how it seemed to be a reality, at least in the weeks preceding to the assassination.

Both Jack Davis and Butch Burroughs (we only know a few theater witnesses since the Dallas Police conveniently “lost” the list of theater patrons) said one Oswald arrived in the theater roughly twenty minutes before the second Oswald in the Postal/Brewer saga allegedly arrived. 

Mr. B. wants us to believe Davis and Burroughs were wrong about when the first Oswald arrived, and/or he wants us to believe that the Postal/Brewer timeline was incorrect about the time the second Oswald arrived. He wants us to believe that if a second Oswald was arrested in the balcony and hustled out of the theater, none of this could be seen clearly enough by Burroughs to enable him to say he saw Oswald arrested, even as the man was hustled down stairs and out the back door.  Are we seriously to believe this scene necessitates THREE OSWALDS to envision?  That’s the silliness Mr. B. wants us to believe.

And so we are to believe that not one but two Dallas Police reports saying Oswald was arrested in the balcony were silly mistakes.  This was the most famous arrest in the history of Texas!  Are we to believe that the names and addresses of theater patrons collected by three different cops just disappeared because of yet another silly mistake?  We are to believe that two witnesses who say they saw a man taken out the back door of the theater never saw images of “Lee Harvey Oswald” that night and therefore couldn’t tell the man they saw from George Applin?  Mr. B. says this with great certainty without even knowing what George Applin looked like!

 Silly rabbit!

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

But Hoover wrote a memo on 11/22/63 saying that Oswald "went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for."  I'll try to find the actual memo.  There is no record that Classic Oswald ever went to Cuba.  If Hoover was right, it must have been another LHO.

Steve,

Below is the full Hoover memo sent to all the FBI top brass on 11/22/63--the very day JFK was assassinated--in which he (Hoover) described telling AG Robert F. Kennedy that Lee Harvey Oswald "went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for." 

I'm aware of no other hint on the record that Classic Oswald ever went to Cuba.  Therefore, it must have been another "Lee Harvey Oswald" who went there.

Isn't it amazing how much evidence points to two Oswalds?

Apparently, it isn't easy to make an entire human being disappear without a trace.  If it were easy, Hoover and the Warren Commission would have surely succeeded.

The documents below are also available on the Mary Ferrell website at this address:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62251#relPageId=96&tab=page

[Ron Bulman]

Two's company, three's a crowd.  Three is not supported.  Two is. 

Burroughs saw first floor Oswald taken out the front door.  Had a clear frontal then side view, the last up close, as they brought Oswald up the aisle toward his concession stand then turned to go into the lobby.  

"Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald's arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only "three or four minutes later".  He said the Dallas Police then arrested an "Oswald lookalike."  Burroughs said the second man "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something."  I questioned the comparison by asking could you see the second man as well as you could see Oswald?  He said, "Yes, I could see both of them.  They looked alike." … "within a space of three or four minutes... saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed but taken out of the back of the theater."

Unless Applin bore a strong resemblance to LHO he wasn't the guy Burroughs saw taken out the back.  What are the odd's a random theater patron, one of 20 or so in the 900 seats would look like Ozzie?  

[Steve Thomas]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Below is the full Hoover memo sent to all the FBI top brass on 11/22/63--the very day JFK was assassinated--in which he (Hoover) described telling AG Robert F. Kennedy that Lee Harvey Oswald "went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for." 

I'm aware of no other hint on the record that Classic Oswald ever went to Cuba.  Therefore, it must have been another "Lee Harvey Oswald" who went there.

The documents below are also available on the Mary Ferrell website at this address:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62251#relPageId=96&tab=page

Jim,

 

My reference to the "Stringfellow" cable was that Stringfellow allegedly said that Oswald had "defected" to Cuba in 1959, not just visited there as Hoover maintains in the memo you cited. We know that it was Russia he "defected" to, not Cuba.

 

What's that business in Hoover's memo about Oswald shooting at two cops a block or two away from the TSBD, killing one?

It wasn't just Stringfellow who was "slinging a lot of questionable info around that day."

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

Stringfellow my have been using the term “defected” inaccurately, but there’s credible evidence that one Oswald was in Cuba (as well as in the U.S. involved in anti-Castro activities) while the other was in Russia, and Hoover indicated he had been there several times.  The U.S. Army seemed to take seriously this claim that "Lieutenant Harvey Oswald" was in Havana in 1961.

FROM: SAC (New York)
TO: Director FBI

Enclosed for each recipient is one copy of a self-explanatory Army communication dated 12.30.63 captioned Harvey Oswald.

Enclosed Army communication alleges that Oswald was in Cuba in the company of Robert Taber, former head of Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC), approximately three weeks after the April 1961, Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba.

   

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Stringfellow my have been using the term “defected” inaccurately, but there’s credible evidence that one Oswald was in Cuba (as well as in the U.S. involved in anti-Castro activities) while the other was in Russia, and Hoover indicated he had been there several times.  The U.S. Army seemed to take seriously this claim that "Lieutenant Harvey Oswald" was in Havana in 1961.

FROM: SAC (New York)
TO: Director FBI

Enclosed for each recipient is one copy of a self-explanatory Army communication dated 12.30.63 captioned Harvey Oswald.

Enclosed Army communication alleges that Oswald was in Cuba in the company of Robert Taber, former head of Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC), approximately three weeks after the April 1961, Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba.

   

Jim,

 

This document apparently references that Army Communication:

FBI 62-109060 JFK HQ File, Section 43

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62297&search=luaces#relPageId=89&tab=pageprior to the assassination.

The previous page (page 88) says that Taber called the FBI's New York office and told them that he had never heard the name Oswald prior to the assassination.

PS: Oswald carrying a briefcase seems a little unbelievable to me. But that's just me.

PPS: It's funny. Joe Backes was just asking about Stuart Reed - who was in Personnel in the Canal Zone - just the other day.http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25994-military-intelligence-photographer/

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

Steve,

Interesting, and I hadn't noticed the Canal Zone before.  But someone is clearly lying here.

Do we know an organization that routinely altered witness statements in this case?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODXoISgU-0M

[Guest Rich Pope]

On 7/23/2019 at 2:40 AM, Denis Morissette said:

I don’t. Michael looked much like him, so there is a chance it is him. Allegedly her wife was CIA and Michael was overheard saying over the phone “We both know who is responsible”. And she is the one who helped Lee to find his job in the TSBD. When Detective Guy Rose 🌹 arrived at his residence Ruth she told 🌹 “We were expecting you...” 

Who said Michael Paine's wife was CIA?  His wife's SISTER was CIA.