Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

The Penn Jones piece in the Aug. 21, 1971 Midlothian Mirror, does not claim that Penn Jones himself ever talked with Tommy Rowe. It merely states that Rowe told relatives about his relationship with Ruby and his role at Hardy's Shoes. It does not even state that Penn Jones interviewed one of those relatives about Rowe's statements. Instead, it seemingly implies that Jones heard of Rowe's admissions to his relatives via some third party who, presumably, then told Penn Jones.

So, the 1971 statements could be true.

But they are far enough removed from a direct quote that I think caution is in order when assessing their validity.

Penn Jones himself admitted in print on 3/1/68 - second column below, halfway down -  that he was never able to find or interview Tommy Rowe, and that as of that date, he had given up trying. We don't know what, if anything, transpired between 3/1/68 and 8/21/71, but the above 1971 editorial never claimed anything more than what Jones said in 1968, and as of that date, Jones had never talked with Rowe.

We need to be careful here. After all, we do have a living witness, Johnny Brewer, who might yet enlighten us as to who was with him in Hardy's Shoes on that afternoon. 

 

 

So did Rowe move into Ruby's apartment to protect this shed out back after Ruby was arrested?  If he was that close to Ruby, worked for Brewer., was in Hardy's shoe shop with Brewer and the two IBM men hanging out...  when Oswald ducked in.  Might his claims of pointing out Oswald, instead of Brewer doing so , indicate directing him (Brewer) to Oswald?.

[Paul Jolliffe]

12 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

So did Rowe move into Ruby's apartment to protect this shed out back after Ruby was arrested?  If he was that close to Ruby, worked for Brewer., was in Hardy's shoe shop with Brewer and the two IBM men hanging out...  when Oswald ducked in.  Might his claims of pointing out Oswald, instead of Brewer doing so , indicate directing him (Brewer) to Oswald?.

Ron,

My contention has been all along that Brewer was directed to the Texas Theater by someone (maybe Tommy Rowe, maybe the "IBM men", maybe Tommy Rowe was an "IBM man", maybe someone else) to report the person who had briefly been in Hardy's Shoes. 

I believe that Brewer did not head to the theater on his own accord - he admitted in 1996 that he didn't know who or why he was at the theater. 

How do I know that our "Oswald" did not step into Hardy's Shoes on 11/22/63?

Because Johnny Brewer did not recognize the man who stepped in, and "Oswald" was known to and remembered by Brewer! "Oswald" had been a memorably obnoxious customer a few weeks before, and Johnny Brewer not only remembered him, he could still describe exactly which pair of shoes "Oswald" bought decades later!

The obvious question - avoided like hell by the Warren Commission - was since Brewer knew "Oswald", why didn't he recognize him if "Oswald" actually entered Hardy's Shoes on 11/22/63?

Simple - "Oswald" didn't actually go to Hardy's Shoes on 11/22/63! It was a stranger, someone unknown to Brewer, not "Oswald."

 

 

[Paul Bacon]

3 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Simple - "Oswald" didn't actually go to Hardy's Shoes on 11/22/63! It was a stranger, someone unknown to Brewer, not "Oswald."

So the conspiracy plan was to "find" Oswald in the Texas Theatre.  They needed the DPD to have a reason to look for him there.  Was it "Lee" Oswald's job to go into Hardy"s Shoes looking panicked, suspicious and afraid in order to lead "someone" (J. Brewer, or J. Brewer via T. Rowe) in the shoe store to the theatre and to call the police?  Is this what you're getting at?

Edited October 27, 2019 by Paul Bacon
clarify

[Paul Jolliffe]

4 hours ago, Paul Bacon said:

So the conspiracy plan was to "find" Oswald in the Texas Theatre.  They needed the DPD to have a reason to look for him there.  Was it "Lee" Oswald's job to go into Hardy"s Shoes looking panicked, suspicious and afraid in order to lead "someone" (J. Brewer, or J. Brewer via T. Rowe) in the shoe store to the theatre and to call the police?  Is this what you're getting at?

Almost.

I doubt "Lee" actually was in Hardy's Shoes on the afternoon of 11/22/63. I am certain that "Harvey" was not there that afternoon. I am not even sure that the stranger in Hardy's actually looked all that panicked or suspicious or afraid, certainly not enough to warrant Brewer's following him on Brewer's own accord. 

Remember, Johnny Brewer himself told us in 1996 that he didn't really know why he was at the theater, nor exactly for whom he was to look. Note that Brewer confessed to Ian Griggs in 1996 that he did not recognize "Oswald" until he saw him in the theater.

But that raises the obvious question: why didn't Johnny Brewer recognize "Oswald" a few minutes earlier, at very close range, right in the lobby of Hardy's Shoes, a place that "Oswald" really had shopped weeks earlier, and who had acted so obnoxiously that Johnny Brewer could even recite, decades later, the exact pair of shoes that "Oswald" bought? Why didn't Brewer recognize "Oswald" until he saw him in the theater? 

I believe that the person/people with whom Brewer spoke back at Hardy's (Brewer returned to Hardy's briefly after stepping out of the store) directed him to follow and report the stranger in the Texas Theater. So, if I am correct, then both the stranger (probably) and the person/people at Hardy's (definitely) were in on the conspiracy to lead the DPD to the Texas Theater for "Oswald's" arrest (or to shoot him when he attempted to "escape". I think only "Oswald's" quick thinking - he shouted repeatedly "I am not resisting arrest, I am not resisting arrest" - saved his life.)

It is possible, of course, that the stranger at Hardy's around 1:30 was actually "Lee". However, I doubt it, simply because it would have been extremely risky for the conspirators to have "Lee" loose on the streets in Oak Cliff at a time when the entire neighborhood was crawling with cops. 

FWIW, I doubt that Johnny Brewer himself was a witting accomplice to the plot. I believe he was duped into thinking he was doing his patriotic duty. Who could have duped him? Only some person or persons whom Brewer knew and trusted as an authority figure/s. 

Brewer told us in 1996 that he'd known the two "IBM men" who remained in Hardy's that afternoon (they even helpfully locked the place up for him!) since August of 1962, yet Brewer was careful to claim he could not remember their names.

Why did Brewer hide their names from Ian Griggs?

My guess is they were some kind of law enforcement figures, and somewhere deep in his psyche, Johnny Brewer knows they duped him. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235&relPageId=8&search=johnny_brewer

[Ron Bulman]

A newer infrequent poster asked earlier in the thread, if the IBM guys locked up for Brewer when he ended up leaving for at least much of the afternoon, how did he get back in later?    An important question, maybe more important, why he'd leave "his" store as manager in their care? 

Maybe David Andrews can appreciate this as Buck did a version but did they just leave the key in the mailbox?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+keys+in+the+mailbox+come+on+in&view=detail&mid=580D0443C620B3C388B2580D0443C620B3C388B2&FORM=VIRE

Edited October 28, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Micah Mileto]

Is there any witness to Oswald's guilt who hasn't been thoroughly discredited?

[Ron Bulman]

I stumbled across this thread started by Jim DiEugenio almost a year and a half ago.  A really interesting link I'd read then forgotten about.

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

I stumbled across this thread started by Jim DiEugenio almost a year and a half ago.  A really interesting link I'd read then forgotten about.

 

Good find, Ron. I hadn't read that post either. 

A couple things strike me:

1. Julia Postal was an especially vulnerable woman with her tragic/awful family history and the out-of-wedlock birth of her first child. Could she have been pressured to tell a tale about seeing "Oswald" enter the theater, even though she witnessed no such thing? (And she all but admitted it in both her affidavit and her WC testimony!)

Absolutely.

2. Allen Dulles was a close friend of Robert Storey, a Dallas attorney (see below.) Charles Storey, another Dallas attorney, was both personally and professionally related to Robert.

Charles Story was a longstanding member of the Oak Cliff Lions Club with the infamous John Callahan, the general manager for the Rowley Theater Chain who departed the Texas Theater just around 1:30 - ish. (A man from whom no statement, affidavit, or testimony was taken. We don't even have a newspaper interview! He's yet another "mystery man.")

So, Allen Dulles to Robert Storey to Charles Storey to John Callahan to the Texas Theater . . .

3. Hardy's Shoes  was owned and controlled by Genesco, whose chairman, Maxey Jarman, was an enormously wealthy and ambitious man. Jarman served on the boards of several other corporations and foundations. He moved in elite circles in the financial and corporate world. (For example, he knew Oveta Culp Hobby, owner of the Houston Post and the most influential woman in the Eisenhower administration at a time when both Dulles brothers were in peak power.)

According to Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair, "The CIA's financing mechanisms for these abuses of its charter came in the form of large subventions from American businessmen among whom Allen Dulles and Forrestal passed the hat at New York's Brook Club, getting contributions from fearful millionaires such as Arthur Amory Houghton, president of Steuben Glass; John Hay Whitney, owner of the New York Herald Tribune; and Oveta Culp Hobby, owner of the Houston Post."

The point here is that the head honcho for Hardy's was powerfully intertwined with spooky people directly connected to Allen Dulles, and most of them did not like JFK.

Now, did Johnny Brewer know any of this on 11/22/63?

I doubt it. 

I bet that Brewer was subtly pressured to follow and report the stranger at Hardy's by the man/men with whom Brewer was chatting while they listened to the radio reports. 

If anyone is up for asking Johnny Brewer directly a few questions, I'd appreciate it. If not, I'll do it:

1. Did he know Kathy Kay Coleman, her daughters, or her husband DPD officer Harry Olsen? (It's been alleged elsewhere that he did know them, but I can find no evidence, just the allegation.)

2. Was Johnny Brewer related to DPD motorcyle patrolman (and motorcade rider) E. D. Brewer? Officer Brewer reported a gunman on the second floor of the TSBD.

3. How well did Brewer know DPD Nick McDonald? (Johnny claimed in a later interview to have known the "Oswald"- disarming McDonald for months prior to 11/22/63.)

Don't ask this directly, because this is the money shot: had Johnny Brewer ever been a source, a contact, an asset, an informant or in any way a conduit of information for anyone in law enforcement at either the local, state or federal level?

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80R01731R000300080009-6.pdf

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

Nick Mc Donald is the one that blows it all for me.  If I understand correctly from Bart and Uncle Malcom, please correct/discredit me.

If, Officer Nick Mc Donald had his gun already pulled, and as was stated then Oswald pulled his gun, why didn't Nick shoot him before Ozzie could shoot Nick?

That would be Standard Operating Procedure.  

[Ron Bulman]

On 10/23/2019 at 8:12 PM, Bill Simpich said:

In regards to Ron's question about why Julia told the police that the man went up in the balcony - I have to initially say that the evidence indicates Brewer and Burroughs told her he was up there before she called the police. 

But I also have to say that it is not in her initial statement, nor does she say it to the Warren Commission.   The dispatcher or the cops could have it cooked it up.

If you review the three statements of Brewer, Burroughs and Postal to the WC, which pretty much match their initial statements as reported in the press, and statements to the police by Postal - you will see that at 1:30 to 1:35 Brewer was in hot pursuit of the Oswald-type character when he "ducked" by Postal into the Theatre. 

I say 1:30 to 1:35 because Postal knew that JFK was dead before the Oswald-type character entered the theatre.  She said the news was announced "just about the time all chaos broke loose".

This was 15-20 minutes after Oswald entered the theatre and later bought popcorn from Burroughs at 1:15 - according to Burroughs' statement to Jim Marrs in 1987 - and I think it was done to provoke a call to the police to the theatre.  

I have listened to Jones Harris' very explicit description to me of his interview with Postal - and he and others at the interview were convinced that Postal knew that she had sold a ticket to Oswald - but she would not admit and will never admit.  She didn't just cry when asked if she sold him a ticket - she lost her bearings - and it happened twice.

John Armstrong describes the route to the balcony:  "The Texas Theater has a main floor level and a balcony. Upon entering the theater from the "outside doors," there are stairs leading to the balcony on the right. Straight ahead are a second set of "inside doors" leading to the concession stand and the main floor. It is possible to go directly to the balcony, without being seen by people at the concession stand, by climbing the stairs to the right." 

Thus, From the door, the Oswald-type character could either go straight up the stairs to the balcony, or he could enter the ground floor while passing by Burroughs' concession stand.

Brewer and Burroughs looked for the character on the ground floor and checked the doors - since the doors were locked and they couldn't be locked from the outside, they assumed that the character was still in the theatre and was not seen in the ground floor.  Burroughs said that he assumed that he had "sneaked up the stairs real fast" because the stairway was near the entry door - and was now up in the balcony.   Brewer said they looked up in the balcony and "couldn't see anything", probably because it was so dark. They "told Julia that we hadn't seen him...and she called the police".  The dispatcher reported that she told the police the man was "hiding in the balcony" - probably because that's what they told her.

One of the cops claim that Postal told them when they got there that the suspect was in the balcony:  K.D. Lyons, who was in the car with Hill and Bentley and Oswald during that very questionable ride.  Did others tell that tale?  This needs further research.

It is intriguing to note that the news story reports that it was the mysterious manager John Callahan who turned the lights on and exposed LHO to the police.  Postal said that just as Oswald entered the building, Callahan came running out the other way, and "got in his car...to see where (the police) were going."  Another report says that the "manager on duty" had seen one man in the theater "since 12:05".  To my knowledge, Callahan was never questioned by anybody.

Thanks for this post Bill.  It pushed the thread over 20k views in 3 1/2 months, pretty good for this site.  I realize many of the posts were lone nut answers but yours and many others by Jim H, Jim P and several more have expanded my knowledge on the subject.  It now seems Callahan was not the manager of the TT per se, but of several in the area.  A theater manager seems MIA.  Since Postal mentioned him he should have been questioned.

[Jim Hargrove]

All sorts of interesting issues have been discussed in this thread.  But as Ron suggested above, the most significant single question may be, Who was the “manager on duty” who told Det. Toney that the balcony suspect had “been in the theater since about 12:05 PM,” well before the theater opened.

That man may have been a direct lead to the people who conspired to frame “Lee Harvey Oswald” for the assassinations of JFK and J.D. Tippit.

[Ron Bulman]

15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

All sorts of interesting issues have been discussed in this thread.  But as Ron suggested above, the most significant single question may be, Who was the “manager on duty” who told Det. Toney that the balcony suspect had “been in the theater since about 12:05 PM,” well before the theater opened.

That man may have been a direct lead to the people who conspired to frame “Lee Harvey Oswald” for the assassinations of JFK and J.D. Tippit.

I defer to Bill Simpich.  Like Jim D's link provides the manager question remains.  Callahan was a manger of 5 theater's at the time, previously up to 15, a general manager from downtown Dallas.  Each Theatre had it's own site manager.  Never named for the TT. Why was Callahan there at then moment, left immediately when the xxxx came down, but no operational manager ever named?  Because "They" didn't want to know.  Even though they did.

 https://www.thenewdisease.space/texas-theatre-mysteries

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 11/3/2019 at 1:59 AM, Ron Bulman said:

I defer to Bill Simpich.  Like Jim D's link provides the manager question remains.  Callahan was a manger of 5 theater's at the time, previously up to 15, a general manager from downtown Dallas.  Each Theatre had it's own site manager.  Never named for the TT. Why was Callahan there at then moment, left immediately when the xxxx came down, but no operational manager ever named?  Because "They" didn't want to know.  Even though they did.

 https://www.thenewdisease.space/texas-theatre-mysteries

You're right - the Warren Commission didn't want to know about the "manager on duty." As far as I know, the projectionist was never identified, let alone interviewed, so it is possible that person could have the been the one to "clear" a second suspect in the balcony. It's also possible that the "manager on duty" was a complete outsider, unaffiliated with the Texas Theater in any professional capacity, a conspirator desperate to deflect attention from the second suspect.

Either way, because the WC did not investigate or identify this person, we can conclude (a la Peter Dale Scott's "negative template") that this person's identity was sensitive - they were "connected" to something the WC did not want publicized. 

Might someone here ask Butch Burroughs about the projectionist on duty that day? (Is Butch Burroughs still alive?)

 

[Jim Hargrove]

On 11/5/2019 at 3:48 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

You're right - the Warren Commission didn't want to know about the "manager on duty." As far as I know, the projectionist was never identified, let alone interviewed, so it is possible that person could have the been the one to "clear" a second suspect in the balcony. It's also possible that the "manager on duty" was a complete outsider, unaffiliated with the Texas Theater in any professional capacity, a conspirator desperate to deflect attention from the second suspect.

Either way, because the WC did not investigate or identify this person, we can conclude (a la Peter Dale Scott's "negative template") that this person's identity was sensitive - they were "connected" to something the WC did not want publicized. 

Might someone here ask Butch Burroughs about the projectionist on duty that day? (Is Butch Burroughs still alive?)

I found a Warren H. Burroughs, age 78, listed on truepeoplesearch.com with mailing addresses going back to 1990 in Lancaster TX, Dallas TX, Desoto TX and more recently (2016-2017) in Maine.

Could this be our man?  If it sounds possible, I can start queries on several email addresses given and quite a few phone numbers as well, but I’d like to establish that this contact meets some basic criteria before starting to ask around. Anyone?

[John Butler]

Paul,

You said, "As far as I know, the projectionist was never identified, let alone interviewed, so it is possible that person could have the been the one to "clear" a second suspect in the balcony."

My brother use to run the projection booth at our local theater.  He would allow me to sit in the balcony if I helped with film splicing if the film broke.

We would sit out in the balcony and watch the movie.  When it was time to change a reel a big circle would be shown on the upper right of the theater screen.  He or both of us would go into the projection booth an change the feel reel and get ready for the next change.  It didn't take long.  Most theaters of the sixties were set up about the same.  Photos showing the inside of the projection booth of the Texas Theater looked very familiar.  I may be mixing memories here and the photos of the projection booth I saw, while of a sixties era projection booth, may not have been the Texas Theater.

Afterwards we would go back out into the balcony and watch the film.  The point here is if the projectionist at the Texas Theater did the same thing then he would clearly have info on who was in the balcony or not.  I suspect that is why he was never identified or questioned.

Added later:

If the Texas Theater had the same racist, segregationist policies as our local theater did then a white person in the balcony would have stuck out like a sore thumb.  I have no doubt that the Texas Theater had the same policy.  Black people would not have been allowed to sit next to white people.  So, main floor for whites and the balcony for blacks.  Segregation, in some ways was still in force when I was there in 1969.

The projectionist would probably have seen a white person and would have asked them to leave the balcony area.  Then again maybe not.  An out of area person would have been noticed. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by John Butler