Michael Paine, Oswald lookalike?

[Denny Zartman]

8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

But I have a tough time seeing Paine as a impersonator of LHO.  Between his blue blood east coast establishment lineage from the Cabot's and Forbe's and trust fund to his day job at stepdad's company Bell Helicopter and security clearance for it I'd think he was a level above such.  Maybe more of a facilitator. taking him to an ACLU meeting, helping set up Marina with Ruth, all the time not knowing why...

Hence the call, "We both know who..." 

I would think Michael's blue blood and security clearance would be assets in diverting suspicion from him, therefore making him ideal for this type of assignment. What kind of investigator is going to try and pressure someone like Michael Paine once they know of his status? Let's not forget the most important element protecting Michael Paine: Michael had his CIA connected wife Ruth to vouch for him. We all know that, in the face of multiple witnesses saying something else, the Warren Commission almost always chose to believe Ruth Paine's version of events, no matter how many witnesses contradicted her or how credible those witnesses were.

If we're looking for someone who is setting Oswald up and posing as him in the days and weeks before the assassination and had access to Oswald's materials, Michael seems to fit the bill. Michael not only resembled Oswald, Michael had access to Ruth's garage, typewriter, car, as well as access to Marina and her children. It seems to me that Michael could have taken Marina and the children to the furniture mart, or been associated with the alleged sighting of Ruth's station wagon in Dealey Plaza as witnessed by Roger Craig and allegedly confirmed by Oswald himself.

So, off the top of my head, here's my rough list of things that might make one consider the possibility Michael Paine might have been one of the Oswald impersonators.

1. Physical resemblance
2. Access to Ruth's garage
3. Access to Ruth's typewriter
4. Access to Ruth's station wagon
5. Access to Oswald's wife and children
6. Unquestionable alibi witness in Ruth
7. Blue blood family status - favorable treatment by authorities
8. Security clearance - discourages investigators
9. Personal taxes kept secret
10. Over 30 WC documents relating to Michael, Ruth, and other Paine family members kept secret
11. The Paine's were too hot to be mentioned by name in Oliver Stone's film 1991 film "JFK"
12. Robert Oswald's suspicions of Ruth and Michael
13. 6 or 7 filing cabinets of info on pro-Castro sympathizers found at Ruth's home
14. Oswald's spy camera, which either Michael really owned or owned a broken one just like it
15. "We both know who's responsible" phone call between Michael and Ruth
16. Sighting in DC, where Ruth had been a few days prior

I read that Ruth and Michael separated in September 1962 in time for Marina & daughter to move in early 1963, but I wonder if that September '62 separation was documented anywhere.

In addition to all that mentioned above, let's remember that apparently the CIA connected Ruth Paine was instrumental in getting Oswald his job at the TSBD and neglected to tell Oswald of a higher paying job offer elsewhere. And that good-hearted Ruth Paine had apparently never taken in boarders before or since, making her act of generosity toward Marina and her daughter unique.

Finally, let's go back to your the mention of the ACLU meeting. It seems that Ruth and Michael Paine were members of the American Civil Liberties union, and Michael reportedly attended an ACLU meeting with Oswald. But... what did the good ACLU members Mr. and Mrs. Paine do to help Oswald obtain legal representation when they knew he was being held without it?

Edited July 23, 2019 by Denny Zartman

[Denny Zartman]

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Edited July 23, 2019 by Denny Zartman

[Denny Zartman]

On 7/22/2019 at 11:27 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Denny:

Lee's whereabouts on September 27, 1963 and a couple days around that day have been discussed in the recent book by Paul Blake Smith (a pseudonym?), "JFK and the Willard Hotel Plot".

https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Willard-Hotel-Plot-Explosive/dp/163554128X/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=willard+hotel+jfk&qid=1563809086&s=gateway&sr=8-1

 

The purple prose in this book makes it a chore to read. It seems Mr. Smith believes that Oswald was a rifleman in a Mafia plot against JFK, and there was supposed to be an assassination attempt in Washington DC on October 1, 1963, using the Willard Hotel as the stand in for the TSBD. So, it's a book that is totally accepting of a JFK assassination conspiracy, yet also portrays Oswald as a deranged shooter in language any LN would be proud to use. The author doesn't believe the backyard photographs were faked, or that there was any conspiracy in the assassinations of MLK and RFK either. This particular book opens with a long discourse on the Lincoln assassination, and ends with a "Bonus Chapter" entitled "The Psychic World Of Lincoln And Kennedy", which does not inspire a lot of confidence.

I might try to continue to plow through the book a little further in hopes to find something more than the Secret Service report linking Oswald to Washington DC when officially he was elsewhere, but normally I would bail on books like this.

[Stephanie Goldberg]

On 7/22/2019 at 11:20 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Kind of like Fritz's notes...

There is a resemblance between Michael and Lee.  But I have a tough time seeing Paine as a impersonator of LHO.  Between his blue blood east coast establishment lineage from the Cabot's and Forbe's and trust fund to his day job at stepdad's company Bell Helicopter and security clearance for it I'd think he was a level above such.  Maybe more of a facilitator. taking him to an ACLU meeting, helping set up Marina with Ruth, all the time not knowing why...

Hence the call, "We both know who..." 

I don't even know enough yet about Michael Paine to offer any real opinion.  Just from the little that I have surmised from reading bits of his WC testimony and seeing how he interacted with LHO and Ruth Paine, I'd say that Michael wouldn't be a first-choice candidate to impersonate LHO.  Did Marnia or Ruth Paine ever make any remarks about a resemblance between the two men?

On 7/23/2019 at 7:00 AM, Denny Zartman said:

Thanks for the tip, buying it now.

Denny - it's an interesting book. The whole Washington angle does raise a ton of questions, but when I finished reading the book I wasn't sure that it had completely made its point about LHO's whereabouts.  

Edited July 25, 2019 by Stephanie Goldberg
Edited for autocorrect of a member's name

[Andrej Stancak]

The book contains number of speculations and presents Lee Oswald as a mentally unstable person. The book also makes parallels to the assassination of Abraham Lincoln which appears to be a speculation. If a reader abstracts from these aspects, the book still gives an interesting explanation of where Lee Oswald was during the time when he was supposed to be in Mexico City. The factual support for alleged Lee Oswald's presence in Washington, DC on September 27 is the following: 1) Lee's letters from end of August in which he hinted to be in Baltimore area on October 1. 2) Dick Russel's book on Richard Case Nagell who had warned the FBI about a plot to kill the President around the end of September. 3) Most importantly, the Secret Service report elaborated between December 2 and 5, 1963 in which SS agent Boring and another agent described witnessing of Lee Oswald's presence in Washington, DC by three people: a driver of a ministerial limousine Bernard Thompson, SS agent George (Hickey?), and a local police officer. Briefly, Bernard Thomas was a driver for the Ministry of Agriculture and waited for the minister's wife who was about to come out from Willard  Hotel. He parked the limo outside the designated parking area and this was the moment when Lee Oswald allegedly exited the hotel and started to accost the driver for illegal parking. The nervous driver saw another governmental car in which an agent named George (Hickey?) was sitting and that agent recommended Thomas to keep a good eye on Oswald. Thomas then saw a local police officer who also came nearer to the scene and saw Oswald. It was at this moment when Lee Oswald decided to leave the scene. Thus, three people saw Lee Oswald in Washington, DC on Friday, the 27th September 1963.

The book is relevant in context of this thread as gives a reasonable explanation of where Lee Oswald was if he was not in Mexico City. The book is not referenced too well and appears to rely on Vincent Palamara's book without this being always clear.

 

 

 

[Lewis Reynolds]

"Briefly, Bernard Thomas was a driver for the Ministry of Agriculture and waited for the minister's wife who was about to come out from Willard  Hotel. He parked the limo outside the designated parking area and this was the moment when Lee Oswald allegedly exited the hotel and started to accost the driver for illegal parking. The nervous driver saw another governmental car in which an agent named George (Hickey?) was sitting and that agent recommended Thomas to keep a good eye on Oswald. Thomas then saw a local police officer who also came nearer to the scene and saw Oswald. It was at this moment when Lee Oswald decided to leave the scene. Thus, three people saw Lee Oswald in Washington, DC on Friday, the 27th September 1963."

If true this sounds very much like hes trying to attract attention to himself....i wonder if it was another impersonator?

[Denny Zartman]

Thank you for your summary, @Andrej Stancak . I tried to look past the problems I was having with the book and concentrate on the raw information, but when a book about the JFK assassination starts off early with the old "shot in a theater, captured in a warehouse" canard, I have trouble taking it seriously. The endless personal characterizations bother me too, especially of Oswald. It just doesn't sound objective or professional to me, and I begin to want to tune it out or stop reading all together.

5 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thus, three people saw Lee Oswald in Washington, DC on Friday, the 27th September 1963.

Would this be an accurate description of the known facts, or would "Three people allegedly observed the person that one of them later identified as closely resembling Oswald?" be more accurate? I don't see anything about the police officer in question being identified and interrogated, or that Secret Service agent "George" was identified and asked about this incident. Perhaps I missed it.

[Denny Zartman]

7 hours ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

I'd say that Michael wouldn't be a first-choice candidate to impersonate LHO

Why would you say that? I'm genuinely curious. In my opinion, circumstances would seem to indicate that he would be an ideal candidate.

[Denny Zartman]

4 hours ago, Lewis Reynolds said:

If true this sounds very much like hes trying to attract attention to himself....i wonder if it was another impersonator?

It seems to be a little different than some of the other appearances where there appeared to be a clear effort to drop hints and clues. Ironically, that might end up being more consistent with an appearance by the real Oswald than an impersonator.

[Michael Clark]

To be sure, Michael Paine seems to be well-placed at the time of the assassination. He was at work (Bell?). 

Our main LHO impersonator is a character for whom we have a rough personality sketch, as gleaned from several encounters (furniture mart, barber shop, perhaps others). He was more excitable and gruff, possibly aggressive.

I don’t think Michael was in the theater, not by a long-shot. Nor do I think he played a part in any of the LHO impersonation scenarios. What I do think is that we are seeing, in LHO, some blood connection to the family or family lines of the Paines. Perhaps he was some bastard child who had hopes of rehabilitation into the family. A pauper-come-prince? A once and future Forbe?

I have, since delving back into this, felt that there may be a struggle going on to restore or dynastic, royal, legitimacy, or add new bloodlines to a crypto-power structure and elite “New World Order”. This would be a movement that would cross ideological and political  boundaries and would undermine both of the main antagonists of the Cold War. What was George DeMohreschildt doing in Dallas, in 1963?

I also see some hereditary traits in some of the players like, Ruth and Michael, Dulles, Helms and others. I am thinking of Mandibular Prognathism, also known as the Hapsburg Jaw, which is a result of inbreeding along family lines (this is disputed but I believe it is true).

[David Andrews]

My caveat about a Michael Paine impersonation of Oswald: Paine looks considerably taller.  Then again, people only seeing Oswald on TV may have negated that.

[Jeffrey Reilley]

4 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

To be sure, Michael Paine seems to be well-placed at the time of the assassination. He was at work (Bell?). 

Our main LHO impersonator is a character for whom we have a rough personality sketch, as gleaned from several encounters (furniture mart, barber shop, perhaps others). He was more excitable and gruff, possibly aggressive.

I don’t think Michael was in the theater, not by a long-shot. Nor do I think he played a part in any of the LHO impersonation scenarios. What I do think is that we are seeing, in LHO, some blood connection to the family or family lines of the Paines. Perhaps he was some bastard child who had hopes of rehabilitation into the family. A pauper-come-prince? A once and future Forbe?

I have, since delving back into this, felt that there may be a struggle going on to restore or dynastic, royal, legitimacy, or add new bloodlines to a crypto-power structure and elite “New World Order”. This would be a movement that would cross ideological and political  boundaries and would undermine both of the main antagonists of the Cold War. What was George DeMohreschildt doing in Dallas, in 1963?

I also see some hereditary traits in some of the players like, Ruth and Michael, Dulles, Helms and others. I am thinking of Mandibular Prognathism, also known as the Hapsburg Jaw, which is a result of inbreeding along family lines (this is disputed but I believe it is true).

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Carter-5585

 

Robert E. Lee Oswald's Great Great grandmother was also Theodore Roosevelt's Great Great Grandmother, apparently. 

[Stephanie Goldberg]

14 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

Why would you say that? I'm genuinely curious. In my opinion, circumstances would seem to indicate that he would be an ideal candidate.

Michael Paine was a known quantity in Dallas.  He had a job and coworkers and a schedule.  He had a family.  He probably had friends who could blow his cover if he were in the wrong place at the wrong time and saw one of them.  While his job may have afforded him some flexibility to come and go as he pleased, his Dallas times would have made it difficult for him to be relied upon to impersonate LHO at specific times/places if there was a master schedule for those events.