Who Organized the Killing of JFK?

[John Ritchson]

I thought I would attempt to provide a brief summary of the Kennedy Assassination. This is very much my interpretation of what took place. Please fell free to criticise this account or to add your own interpretation of what happened.

Greetings All I would like to offer up the following for your concideration in addition to John Simkin's thinking on the subject at issue:

I am fairly certain that most if not all members of this forum are at least aware of the famous Flying Tigers who engaged the Japanese during WWII while based in SE Asia prior to America's entrance into the war. While this is certainly true and even heroic on its face what many may not know is that according to my uncle, Russel (Pappy) Phipps, the primary mission of the Flying Tigers was to provide armed escort to cargo planes flying over the [HUMP] as it were between Burma and China obstensivley to provide logistics and support to the Chinese resistance fighting the Japanese occupation forces in China. However, according to my uncle, the bulk of the cargo he personally flew into China during the 70+ missions he conducted was comprised of raw opium produced in the Golden Triangle area of what was then, French Indo-China and of which fueled a major portion of the world's Heroin supply.

Sometime after the war and after the Communist Mao took over China and the French got the proverbial boot at Diem Bien Phu the former commander, Andre Chenault (If memory serves), sold the entire operation to the CIA which renamed it Air America and conducted business as usual placing General Van Trang, one of Chang Ki Chek's warlords in charge of the Hmong opium producers, based in an area of Laos known as Lima Sierra, (LS-54), being a facet of Operation Whitestar refered to as OPLAN54 under the direction of MACV Siagon, and keeping alive the infamous French Connection.

At the time JFK discovered the existence of OPLAN54 and moved to shut the operation down, the CIA was raking in some 70 billion dollars (US) a year in unaccountable black-bag money which was used to finance their various other operations world wide with zero oversight, and remember folks, we're talking about 1963 dollars here!

Such would of course provide tremendous motive to kill a sitting president since not only would the CIA, but the rich and powerfull bankers and corporations that directly and indirectly profited from the world Heroin trade would also stand to lose billions of dollars if JFK was allowed to proceed with the dismanteling of the operation.

Therefore, I have no problem with the possibility that the decision to assassinate our 35th president was made around a conference table of some multinational board room representing the military-industrial-complex, and prosecuted by rogue elements of the 13 [sISTERS] and organised crime bosses.

Comments Anyone?

[John Simkin]

When are you going to see there is no straight line between the mafia and the "big boys". 

Here's a few hints: Marcello financed LBJ.

So did a lot of people. Is that really evidence that Marcello was involved in the assassination of JFK?

Frank Costello was buddies with J Edgar Hoover, Clint Murchison and a slew of politicians. That why they called him "The politician"

So what. Is that really evidence that Costello was involved in the assassination of JFK?

Even good old Ike met with Murray Humphreys.

Are you saying that proves that both Eisenhower and Humphreys were involved in the assassination?

Luciano got out of jail for a campaign contribution to his nemesis Tom Dewey.

What is the connection between this and the assassination of JFK?

Giancana rigged the Illinois election for JFK (or better said his dad)

This is unproven. Anyway, how is it evidence that Giancana ordered the assassination of JFK. Sure he was angry with JFK. He had a motive. So did a lot of people. You need to find the evidence that links to the motive.

Trafficante, Giancana and Roselli plotted against Castro with the CIA and who knows  what more (f.e. Guatemala)

I agree with you on this. However, how do we know there is a connection between the planned assassination of Castro? That is what people like Jack Anderson, Dick Billings and G. Robert Blakey want us to believe. But is it true? I will explain this in more detail in my answer to Tim.

Bugsy Siegel was buddies with George Raft.

True. But was has this got to do with the assassination? I know you are a great believer of guilt by association but this one is ridiculous.

Sinatra (and some of the rest of the rat pack) was buddies with Giancana, Roselli, Luciano, Costello and many more mob guys.

True. But was has this got to do with the assassination?

Even Jim Garrison was on good terms with Marcello. He called Marcello "a businessman" and refused to look into him.

That is what Billings says. I consider him to be an unreliable witness. Anyway, what are you saying here. Was Garrison involved in the assassination of JFK or just taking part in the cover up? If that is the case, why did he draw attention to Ferrie, Banister, etc.?

And Luis Posada Carrilles? What is he? Mob, CIA, Terrorrist? or all three?

A very unpleasant character. Nothing would give more pleasure in naming him as one of the gunman. However, I have never been able to find any evidence that he was involved in the assassination. Have you?

Moses Annenberg, have you heard of him? His son is a member of the George Bush foundation.

Never heard of him? What is the link with the assassination? His son’s membership of the George Bush foundation?

[Wim Dankbaar]

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

When are you going to see there is no straight line between the mafia and the "big boys".

Here's a few hints: Marcello financed LBJ.

*

So did a lot of people. Is that really evidence that Marcello was involved in the assassination of JFK?

The link with the assassination was not the point. The point was the intertwinement between the mafia and the "big boys"

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

Frank Costello was buddies with J Edgar Hoover, Clint Murchison and a slew of politicians. That why they called him "The politician"

*

So what. Is that really evidence that Costello was involved in the assassination of JFK?

The link with the assassination was not the point. The point was the intertwinement between the mafia and the "big boys"

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

Even good old Ike met with Murray Humphreys.

*

Are you saying that proves that both Eisenhower and Humphreys were involved in the assassination?

The link with the assassination was not the point. The point was the intertwinement between the mafia and the "big boys"

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

Luciano got out of jail for a campaign contribution to his nemesis Tom Dewey.

*

What is the connection between this and the assassination of JFK?

The link with the assassination was not the point. The point was the intertwinement between the mafia and the "big boys"

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

Giancana rigged the Illinois election for JFK (or better said his dad)

*

This is unproven. Anyway, how is it evidence that Giancana ordered the assassination of JFK. Sure he was angry with JFK. He had a motive. So did a lot of people. You need to find the evidence that links to the motive.

The link with the assassination was not the point. The point was the intertwinement between the mafia and the "big boys"

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

Trafficante, Giancana and Roselli plotted against Castro with the CIA and who knows what more (f.e. Guatemala)

*

I agree with you on this. However, how do we know there is a connection between the planned assassination of Castro? That is what people like Jack Anderson, Dick Billings and G. Robert Blakey want us to believe. But is it true? I will explain this in more detail in my answer to Tim.

The connection with the planned assassination of Castro is well proven with documents and testimonies. Did you miswrite and actually mean to say the planned assassination of JFK?

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

Bugsy Siegel was buddies with George Raft.

*

True. But was has this got to do with the assassination? I know you are a great believer of guilt by association but this one is ridiculous.

The link with the assassination was not the point. The point was the intertwinement between the mafia and the "big boys"

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

Sinatra (and some of the rest of the rat pack) was buddies with Giancana, Roselli, Luciano, Costello and many more mob guys.

*

True. But was has this got to do with the assassination?

The link with the assassination was not the point. The point was the intertwinement between the mafia and the "big boys"

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

Even Jim Garrison was on good terms with Marcello. He called Marcello "a businessman" and refused to look into him.

*

That is what Billings says. I consider him to be an unreliable witness. Anyway, what are you saying here. Was Garrison involved in the assassination of JFK or just taking part in the cover up? If that is the case, why did he draw attention to Ferrie, Banister, etc.?

It's also what Jones Harris says. I don't think Garrison was not sincere, he was on the right track too, but I think his relationship with Marcello may have compromised where he wanted to go. He probably was convinced that Marcello had nothing to do with it, but if he had any doubts he may have stashed them away in the back of his mind. It's a good question though. Why did he he not pursue the link between Ferrie and Marcello?

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

And Luis Posada Carrilles? What is he? Mob, CIA, Terrorrist? or all three?

*

A very unpleasant character. Nothing would give more pleasure in naming him as one of the gunman. However, I have never been able to find any evidence that he was involved in the assassination. Have you?

Well, I only know he was a member of the secret CIA team of assassins called Operation 40, and that he was on Dealey Plaza that day.

QUOTE(Wim Dankbaar @ Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM)

Moses Annenberg, have you heard of him? His son is a member of the George Bush foundation.

*

Never heard of him? What is the link with the assassination? His son’s membership of the George Bush foundation?

The link with the assassination was not the point. The point was the intertwinement between the mafia and the "big boys"

[Pamela Ray]

I thought I would attempt to provide a brief summary of the Kennedy Assassination. This is very much my interpretation of what took place. Please fell free to criticise this account or to add your own interpretation of what happened.

As touchy of a subject as it is, the group MJ-12 is often overlooked in the discussion of who organized the killing of JFK.

To find numerous references the individual researcher will have to sort through, search with the key words “MJ-12 Bush JFK oil UFO”

"Those conspiracies that are too incredible to be believed, are by the same right those which most often succeed."

http://www.ufoarea.com/government_dulce_branton_ch1.html

It is interesting to note that James Files mentions Gordon Gray in the unedited version of the November 2003 interview. You’re getting there Wim!

http://think-aboutit.com/Omega/files/omega3.htm

630000 - Kennedy issues ultimatum to MJ-12 member Gordon Gray, says he's going to spill the beans on the whole mess [CIA disk projects, international drug trafficking, mind control, collusion with Grey aliens, etc.] and inform the public. Kennedy, having had to learn these facts from the RUSSIANS, discovers that the scenario is true and threatens to 'dismember' the CIA if they don't come clean and surrender to Congressional supervision.

631122 - President Kennedy murdered in a fascist coup d'etat attempt carried out by CIA agents, Mafia hit men, and the overseers of MJ-12 [MAJI -- or the BLACK MONKS]; their man Lyndon Johnson becomes President.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

More food for thought...

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/angleton.html

Excerpts from:

The CIA, UFOs, MJ-12, JFK & James Jesus Angleton

As the CIA's Counterintelligence Chief, James Jesus Angleton had access to the Agency's most closely guarded secrets, including MJ-12 files on UFOs.

ANGLETON AND THE MJ-12 DIRECTIVE

Among the controversial documents leaked to the public in the last 20 years regarding state secrets and the UFO phenomenon, are the CIA's unacknowledged Majestic Twelve/MJ-12 files which disclose the most guarded of all classified subjects: extraterrestrial life-forms and their technologies.8

In order to secure this knowledge and prevent foreign countries from learning this vital secret and getting an edge on the United States, President Harry S. Truman signed a directive that basically said that no one (including a chief executive) was to be in possession of or disclose the finding without a "need to know" clearance which was above Top Secret.9

The directive was secretly implemented without the knowledge or consent of Congress and was concealed by the wording of the National Security Act of 1947, which prohibits the disclosure of classified matters without presidential approval and prior agreement by the Department of Defense and the Central Intelligence Agency, as amended in later versions of the National Security Act.

Knowledge of the finding was limited to only a select few within the government's intelligence and scientific communities. As long as the secret remained unresolved, there would be no official acknowledgement. The only official study program, Project Blue Book, was taken over by the CIA in 1953 as a public experiment and used as a debunking tool to discount the extraterrestrial reality, and possibly to quash any attempts by the KGB and GRU to glean any technological or defence secrets from the study.

Like the Manhattan Project group, Majestic Twelve or MJ-12 (as used in some leaked documents) was a joint government/military/private-sector undertaking that encompassed every facet of national security functions. The CIA was the premier intelligence agency tasked with maintaining the first line of defence of the United States during the 55-year Cold War between the capitalist West and the communist East. When Angleton assumed his throne as Chief of Counterintelligence, no doubt Truman's directive was a most inviting instrument, allowing him to carry on his mole-hunting career within the CIA against the KGB and GRU.

Majestic Twelve enjoyed greater protection than did the hydrogen bomb program of the early 1950s. With that, the Soviets were driven to penetrate not only the secrets of the H-bomb program itself, but the ultimate prize that lay scattered throughout the US Government's maximum security research facilities located in the southwestern and eastern United States.

The shocking truth of the Soviet atomic weapons espionage program, Enormous, dealt a tremendous blow to US and British security when it was learned that British diplomats operating within the US State Department, as well as US Army technicians at Los Alamos National Laboratories, had not only supplied blueprints and materials for the atomic bomb to their KGB handlers in New York, but had stolen the proposed plans for the hydrogen bomb as well. Security officials were left guessing as at what else the Soviet spies had stolen from under their noses.10

As far as we know, there was no successful penetration by KGB or GRU agents into the CIA's UFO program - in large part, due to the disgraceful and unlawful actions taken by Angleton's CI Staff. After the fallout from the Burgess-MacLean-Philby defections and the execution of the Rosenbergs, Angleton tightened security and dedicated himself to safeguarding whatever secrets still eluded the Soviets. Thus he embarked on a vicious mole-hunt that would almost paralyse the CIA until his departure in 1974.

During the time of the Eisenhower administration (1953-1960), the CIA was at its apex in covert operations, piling up one success after another where cores of Soviet moles were detected and sent home to Moscow. However, comments from the White House were nil when it came to the UFO problem, although Eisenhower's supposed meeting with extraterrestrials in 1954 was given some publicity. While it was largely discounted by the Press, some did try to connect Eisenhower's heart attack with the meeting. The national media were downplaying the UFO sightings in the US and abroad as part of a Cold War hysteria that accompanied the "duck and cover" scare that seemed to grip the country. No real problems popped up until the 1960 presidential elections when Democratic candidate Senator John F. Kennedy accused the Republican incumbent President Eisenhower of allowing a "missile gap" to exist, and charged that the United States was getting too close to the Soviet Union through détente.

Soon after Kennedy became President, he began to needle the CIA for information on UFOs,11 which was unnerving at the outset to Allen Dulles after he was burned over the failed Bay of Pigs invasion of Castro's communist-enslaved Cuba in April 1961. The once cordial relationship that had existed fell apart, and Dulles knew his time as DCI was short - as evidenced in his 1961 draft directive to MJ-12.12 He knew that the explicit instructions contained in the September 24, 1947 Truman directive - prohibiting the DCI from making disclosures to a chief executive who obviously did not have a "need to know" clearance - would compromise the CIA, but also that the lengthy and costly UFO program, deemed so necessary to national security by all involved, simply could not be jeopardised for anyone - not even the President of the United States.

Knowing the character of Allen Dulles and James Angleton, I can only speculate as to what kind of response Kennedy got. The DCI Top Secret/ MJ-12 document leaves no doubt that Dulles was not going to cooperate with Kennedy's request of June 28, 1961, which he forwarded to Angleton for consideration and feedback.

Majestic Twelve/MJ-12 included spin-off projects that were obviously equally sensitive activities of the CIA, such as Parasite, Parhelion, Enviro, Psyop, Green, Spike and House Cleaning. Other sensitive and covert programs could be affected as well, such as MK-ULTRA, Artichoke and Domestic, which all appear to have been operational projects associated with Majestic Twelve. The full implications of the above are not clear at present, but it is obvious that the other projects were held in readiness for some kind of mass indoctrination and deception undertaking in a national crisis.

MARILYN MONROE AND MURDER, INC.

The pressure put on the CIA by Kennedy was reaching a flashpoint of wills; and with the Noresenko affair13 driving Angleton to obsession, a UFO leak crisis brought new strains on Angleton. He learned that Hollywood screen star Marilyn Monroe's phone conversation with a New York art dealer14 - in which she discussed Kennedy's secret visit to an undisclosed military base to see alien artifacts, and her disdain over her soured relationships with President Kennedy and his brother, the United States Attorney General - had been recorded by CIA domestic electronic surveillance experts. Since 1955, Monroe had been under surveillance by the CIA, and the FBI had maintained a security dossier on her because of her marriage to a well-known American writer suspected of having communist affiliations, and her trip to Russia and the Press coverage she received while she was there.15

The wire-tap report also mentions nationally recognised New York syndicated reporter Dorothy Kilgallen as having conversations with Monroe regarding the Roswell UFO crash of 1947 and President Kennedy's politically motivated NASA Apollo Moon program. Dorothy Kilgallen made headlines in 1955 when she disclosed a private conversation with a British Cabinet official who told her that UFOs are real and that the US and British authorities consider the matter as of the highest importance.

The significance of the wire-tap has to do with the fact that Monroe was murdered the following day in her Brentwood condo. According to Milo Speriglio, internationally recognised private investigator and director of the Nick Harris Detective Agency, Monroe was the victim of a national security management hit by the CIA and the Mob.16 The suggestion that somehow the CIA was involved in a domestic murder of an American citizen is not too far-fetched when considering the past abuses coming from Angleton's CI program with its "absolute security at any cost" philosophy. Whether Angleton authorised the hit is not known, but the modus operandi of the way her body was found and moved around, the fashion in which the autopsy records were changed to reflect suicide, and the theft of her secret red diary one day after her autopsy, all have similarities to the methods used by Angleton's covert CIA Counterintelligence operators.

JFK AND THE CIA'S UFO FILES

The final straw for Angleton came when President Kennedy fired off a Top Secret memorandum to him,17 outlining a previous discussion concerning a classification review of all CIA UFO files that could affect national security. It was dated November 12, 1963 - just 10 days before he would be gunned down in the streets of Dallas, Texas.

Kennedy informed Angleton that he was setting things in motion to share sensitive CIA UFO intelligence data with the Russians through the director of NASA, James Webb.18 This request was made on the same day he requested Webb19 to begin Kennedy's peace overture to the Russians via joint space exploration. Webb, being a board member of the intelligence community,19 most likely interpreted Kennedy's program to mean the sharing of classified UFO data, which was forbidden under the current directive.

In Kennedy's Top Secret memorandum,20 he outlined for Angleton the specific items he wished to have disclosed to Webb, such as "[to] have the high-threat cases reviewed with the purpose of identification of bona fide as opposed to the classified CIA and USAF sources", and "that we make a clear distinction between the known and unknowns in the event the Soviets try to mistake our extended cooperation as a cover for intelligence-gathering of their defense and space programs". Finally, Kennedy wanted Angleton to "arrange a program of data-sharing with NASA mission directors in their defensive responsibilities".

This was unprecedented and was totally unacceptable to Angleton and the CIA. Here, Kennedy was requesting the Central Intelligence Agency - the agency he swore he would "break into a thousand pieces" - just to hand over the most guarded secret ever! This memo was passed on to William Colby, who indicated to someone in Angleton's staff in a handwritten note, "Response from Colby: Angleton has MJ directive".21 The note is dated November 20, 1963 - just two days before Kennedy's assassination.

It seems that Kennedy's request was bounced to and from Angleton's desk; either consensus was being sought, or the buck was being passed back to Angleton. In any case, it was a hot potato that Angleton had to deal with. It is also significant that NSAM No. 271 was the last to come from Kennedy's desk, just before he left Washington for Dallas. Whatever the real significance, it was buried somewhere within the CIA, and Angleton spent many a day trying to figure out who ordered Kennedy's execution.

Was Angleton set up, or did he unintentionally supply the needed ingredient for the murder of the century? In either case, the secret remained safe.

NSA SPECIAL ACTIVITIES

One of the few former CIA officers to speak publicly on the Kennedy assassination and the UFO secret is Victor Marchetti, who at one time was Assistant to the Deputy for Plans and Operations under DCI William Colby. In a rare interview with Second Look magazine in 1979, Marchetti - author of the sensational book, Cult of Intelligence, which was vetted and censored by the CIA prior to publication (the only book to include the redacted portions within the text) - made some interesting observations regarding the CIA's UFO intelligence-gathering program and why the subject is not open for discussion.

Retired Air Force intelligence officer Robert Collins produced for his website an insightful foreword to an extract from the Marchetti interview, in which he quotes Marchetti as saying: "My theory is that we have, indeed, been contacted - perhaps even visited - by extraterrestrial beings, and that the US Government, in collusion with other national powers of the Earth, is determined to keep this information from the general public."

Marchetti alluded to "rumors" at the highest levels within the CIA that the NSA has information as well, and that this must be kept away from public viewing.

We know now that the National Security Agency does have sensitive COMINT files, which for reasons of national security it cannot disclose. One of these NSA files that Marchetti speaks of might be the NSA intercept of Kennedy's phone conversation with Khrushchev on November 12, 1963, in which Kennedy spoke of a "situation that affects both our countries and the world" and "a problem that we share in common".

It is believed that the UFO problem became a national security issue when President Truman authorised the covert establishment of the National Security Agency, whose primary responsibility bordered on "special activities" - perhaps as outlined in an alleged Intelligence Estimate prepared by national security officials on September 30, 1947, in which one of the concerns stated that "what we are up against is controlled by intelligent operators" and that "these objects are real and not illusionary".

It is not surprising that, in 1968, an NSA employee drafted a significant analysis of the intelligence community's ambivalence towards the UFO camouflage and warned of dire consequences unless the defence establishment woke up and recognised the danger these phenomena pose in the nuclear age.

On a final note, the legend of James Jesus Angleton and his "wilderness of mirrors", as he often referred to his daunting task of protecting vital state secrets, faded into obscurity on May 11, 1987. But the secret that went with him re-emerged almost precisely the day he died.

Perhaps Jim was not the real bad guy in the counterintelligence game. Maybe he was its victim.

Endnotes:

8. This remarkable fact is substantiated in the mistakenly downgraded Top Secret Canadian Department of Transport intra-departmental correspondence, dated 21 November 1950, from Wilbert B. Smith to Dr Robert I. Sarbacher, an American physicist and science consultant in the US Defense Department's Research and Development Board and a member of the Guidance and Control Panel. Smith acknowledged that UFO studies were "considered by the United States authorities to be of tremendous significance" and that the "matter is the most classified subject in the United States Government, rating higher than the H-bomb".

9. September 24, 1947 Top Secret/MAJIC/ Eyes Only Project White Hot Preliminary Estimate in Five Parts (unacknowledged by the US Government). See Robert M. Wood, PhD, and Ryan S. Wood, The Majestic Documents, Wood & Wood Enterprises, 1998, pp. 43-81.

10. November 25, 1955 Top Secret memorandum from Rear Admiral Edwin T. Layton, Deputy Director for Intelligence, The Joint Staff, to the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, ref. JCS 1712/5. This report deals with the Burgess-MacLean defection, after it was learned that sensitive weapons research information had been sent to Moscow through diplomatic means and after the CIA was informed of the defection. Angleton was devastated to learn that Kim Philby, a longstanding friend of British intelligence, was part of the spy ring.

11. Unacknowledged June 28, 1961 Top Secret National Security Memorandum from President John F. Kennedy to The Director [Dulles], Central Intelligence Agency, Subject: Review of MJ-12 Intelligence Operations as they relate to Cold War Psychological Warfare Plans. It is a one-line request that reads: "I would like a brief summary from you at your earliest convenience."

12. Unacknowledged CIA Top Secret/ MJ-12 Counterintelligence carbon copy of draft directive from Director of Central Intelligence to MJ-12 members 1 to 7, with eight tabs on government watermark onion skin paper, circa 1961.

13. Yuriy Ivanovich Norsenko was a Soviet KGB officer who defected in 1962. Angleton had him detained and tortured for three years, believing the warning given by another KGB defector, Anatoliy Mikaylovich Golitsyn, that Norsenko was ordered to defect and act as a disinformation plant to spread misleading information to the CIA regarding Soviet capabilities and intentions. Later CIA analysis suggested that it was Golitsyn, not Norsenko, who was the real mole planted within the CIA. Angleton was convinced that Golitsyn was a bona fide defector and he used Golitsyn's information, but the CI mole-hunt virtually destroyed the CIA's covert operations for some time.

14. Top Secret CIA wire-tap report, dated August 3, 1962, of discussion between Marilyn Monroe and Howard Rothberg, with references to Project 40, Moon Dust, the 5412 Committee and MJ-12. The report was given to Angleton and has his signature at the bottom right-hand portion of the document, establishing that CI was aware of Monroe's desire to blackmail the Kennedys over their indiscretions during a sexual affair with her prior to August.

15. FBI file No. 105-40018-1, formerly classified Secret. CIA is copied on an August 19, 1955 FBI document from Mr Dennis A. Flinn, Director, Office of Security, Department of State. A copy was sent to Director, Central Intelligence Agency, for the attention of Deputy Director, Plans, and was marked Secret. It was declassified on November 11, 1978, but the subject matter was redacted.

16. See Adela Gregory and Milo Speriglio, Crypt 33: The Saga of Marilyn Monroe - The Final Word, Birch Lane Press, 1993.

17. This would be amazing, since no one in government knew that James Angleton worked for the CIA, much less of his existence, since there were few pictures of Angleton and very few within the Agency knew who he was and what he did. It is also interesting that until his appearance before the Church Committee in 1975, the public did not know about Angleton or his CIA Counterintelligence position. His identity had been kept secret for 20 years.

18. National Security Action Memorandum No. 271, dated November 12, 1963, to The Administrator, National Aeronautics and Space Administration, Subject: Cooperation with the USSR on Outer Space Matters. President Kennedy instructs James Webb as Administrator of NASA to "...assume personally the initiative and central responsibility within the Government for the development of a program of substantive cooperation with the Soviet Union in the field of outer space, including the development of specific technical proposals. I assume that you will work closely with the Department of State and other agencies as appropriate." Kennedy had requested an interim report on NASA's progress in this adventure by December 15, 1963. Of course, after Kennedy was killed, this program was never acted upon.

19. It should be pointed out here that James E. Webb served on President Truman's Psychological Warfare Strategy Board and assisted in revising NSC 10/2 for the Office of Policy Coordination (Covert Operations) in 1948 for the CIA and the Joint Chiefs of Staff for emergency plans in case of war. He also was the author of the Webb Staff Study that worked out cooperation between the military and the CIA concerning IAC intelligence-sharing of foreign atomic research with the AEC, which allowed the DCI prerogatives in the dissemination to key executive officials. Webb considered the DCI slot after Rear Admiral Hillenkoetter left office in 1950.

20. Top Secret Kennedy memorandum to the Director [of Counter Intelligence], Subject: Classification review of all UFO intelligence files affecting National Security, dated November 12, 1963.

21. ibid.

Additional References:

For further updates and reports, see:

· http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/ tim_cooper_documents.html

· http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/ Sanctuary_Of_The_Birds.htm

About the Author:

Timothy S. Cooper is an independent researcher and writer who has worked in security and investigation fields for 15 years. A Vietnam veteran, he began researching military UFO intelligence operations in 1988 and has collected extensive CIA and NSA files. He has also acquired the largest collection of MJ-12 documents and privately owned, original Project Blue Book files in the USA

[Pamela Ray]

I thought I would attempt to provide a brief summary of the Kennedy Assassination. This is very much my interpretation of what took place. Please fell free to criticise this account or to add your own interpretation of what happened.

Greetings All I would like to offer up the following for your concideration in addition to John Simkin's thinking on the subject at issue:

I am fairly certain that most if not all members of this forum are at least aware of the famous Flying Tigers who engaged the Japanese during WWII while based in SE Asia prior to America's entrance into the war. While this is certainly true and even heroic on its face what many may not know is that according to my uncle, Russel (Pappy) Phipps, the primary mission of the Flying Tigers was to provide armed escort to cargo planes flying over the [HUMP] as it were between Burma and China obstensivley to provide logistics and support to the Chinese resistance fighting the Japanese occupation forces in China. However, according to my uncle, the bulk of the cargo he personally flew into China during the 70+ missions he conducted was comprised of raw opium produced in the Golden Triangle area of what was then, French Indo-China and of which fueled a major portion of the world's Heroin supply.

Sometime after the war and after the Communist Mao took over China and the French got the proverbial boot at Diem Bien Phu the former commander, Andre Chenault (If memory serves), sold the entire operation to the CIA which renamed it Air America and conducted business as usual placing General Van Trang, one of Chang Ki Chek's warlords in charge of the Hmong opium producers, based in an area of Laos known as Lima Sierra, (LS-54), being a facet of Operation Whitestar refered to as OPLAN54 under the direction of MACV Siagon, and keeping alive the infamous French Connection.

At the time JFK discovered the existence of OPLAN54 and moved to shut the operation down, the CIA was raking in some 70 billion dollars (US) a year in unaccountable black-bag money which was used to finance their various other operations world wide with zero oversight, and remember folks, we're talking about 1963 dollars here!

Such would of course provide tremendous motive to kill a sitting president since not only would the CIA, but the rich and powerfull bankers and corporations that directly and indirectly profited from the world Heroin trade would also stand to lose billions of dollars if JFK was allowed to proceed with the dismanteling of the operation.

Therefore, I have no problem with the possibility that the decision to assassinate our 35th president was made around a conference table of some multinational board room representing the military-industrial-complex, and prosecuted by rogue elements of the 13 [sISTERS] and organised crime bosses.

Comments Anyone?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aloha John,

I will copy this and send it to James Files for comment. He was in Operation Whitestar.

Please see my post on MJ-12 and comment if you care to. Thanks.

Pam

[Shanet Clark]

John, you went out on a limb with that one, so congratulations for some courage, anyway. I see what Wim is stressing, the theme of intertwining elements of organized crime and politically powerful individuals. Was the Organized Crime theme as delivered in the 1970's a limited hang out for a deeper governmental conspiracy? Many believe so, on the basis of the Cover-up.

Because of the FBI errors and impossibly reversed investigatory methods, the CIA's tight lips, the Bethesda Naval and military autopsy cover-up, the Elements of the governing clique come under scrutiny. If these murky organized crime/mecenaries with legitimate Cold War credentials like JOHNNY ROSELLI, then the point of origin may never be found, but the cover-up, the Warren COmmission, the mysterious deaths, the 25th Amendment and the HSAC all these point to ongoing government action at the highest level to cover-up and deny the truth about the murders of 11/22/63...so we will draw conclusions that bring all these elements into some sense...hence, evidence based theories of conspiracy between military, governmental, hired and enrolled parties........

[John Simkin]

First, a general comment.  think the assassination could have been organized by anti-Castro Cubans either to avenge what they saw as Kennedy's "betrayal" of them at the Bay of Pigs, or to frame Castro for the murder and prompt an invasion of Cuba, or both.  If LHO was indeed a pro-Castroite (who really knows what he was?) it is even possible that he was manipulated into participating by believing the act was in fact done for Fidel.  (Two legal counsel for the WC suggested this scenario and urged investigation of anti-Castro Cubans; the WC declined the suggestion.)  The anti-Castro Cubans had a strong motive: they felt the freedom of their country was at stake.  Americans associated with them (if this scenario is correct) could very have thought the survival of the US was dependent on the removal of Castro. These motives were probably strong enough to even justify a murder, and for those involved to risk their own lives.

Anti-Castro Cubans clearly had a motive to be hostile to JFK. Many blamed JFK for the Bay of Pigs disaster. This did not only mean that Castro remained in power, the failed operation resulted in a large number of Anti-Castro Cubans being killed. It has always been assumed that as a result of the Bay of Pigs some members of this group began plotting the assassination of JFK. I don’t believe that. In fact, we have a great deal of evidence to suggest that JFK and RFK enjoyed a good relationship with this group after the Bay of Pigs.

One of the most important books in helping us understand the JFK assassination is The Bay of Pigs: The Leaders’ Story of Brigade 2506 (1964). The book is written by Haynes Johnson with the help of Manuel Artime, Jose Perez San Roman, Erneido Oliva and Enrique Ruiz-Williams.

The book discusses the Bay of Pigs disaster in great detail. They agree that JFK made mistakes but their hostility is directed towards two groups: the CIA and right-wing political forces in America. It is these two groups they accuse of betrayal. They are full of praise for JFK and RFK for trying to get their comrades released from Castro’s prisons. They compare this to the CIA and the right-wing who provide no help over this issue. In fact, they suggest rightly, that these prisoners were used in the propaganda war against Castro. They claim it was in their political interests for the anti-Castro Cubans to remain in prison.

It has to be remembered that the leaders of Brigade 2506 were left of centre politicians. They had been opponents of Batista. Some had fought alongside Castro in the revolution. They had become disillusioned by Castro’s decision to move towards a Soviet type of government. Although the CIA worked with this group, their political sympathies were with the pro-Batista faction.

Within hours of JFK being assassinated RFK, John McCone, director of the CIA, visited RFK at his home. We now know that during this meeting RFK asked McCone if the CIA killed JFK. When McCone left RFK phoned up Haynes Johnson and asked him if Brigade 2506 had killed JFK. Is that what McCone told him? Both groups said no. Did RFK believe both groups?

It is of course argued that the anti-Castro Cubans killed JFK because he had promised Castro he would not be overthrown by US forces. If that is the case, the killing of JFK would only make sense if they knew LBJ would act very differently. Of course he did not. LBJ refused to order the invasion of Cuba. In fact, although their was evidence that JFK had been killed as a result of a pro-Castro plot, he conspired to cover this information up from the American public.

I do believe that ant-Castro Cubans were involved in the plot to kill JFK. Some of these men were motivated by revenge (although most were doing it for the money). However, they were being manipulated by another group who had a very different agenda. It was this group that got what it wanted from the JFK assassination.

For logical reasons (as well as any evidence) I reject the theory that members of the MICC planned the assassination.

John admits much of his scenario is speculation and he offers no clue as to what members of the MICC were involved.  The motive for the MICC to kill Kennedy was purely economic.  John suggests some rich old bastards were greedy enough not only to overlook whatever religious or moral scruples they might have for murder, but also to risk the death penalty.  I strongly suggest this scenario makes little sense.  Historically, assassinations are either motivated by political considerations or the acts of "lone nuts" (yes, I believe there have been some "lone nut" assassinations).  Granted, some murders are motivated by hope of economic gain but in most cases I believe such murders are perpetrated by people who are not already filthy rich….

So, in summary, I think the involvement of anti-Castro Cubans and rogue elements of the CIA is possible but I highly doubt some rich old bastards killed JFK to put a few more bucks in their pocket at the risk of capital prosecution.

This statement reflects our different political ideology. I believe that economics is at the core of all political decision making. Therefore it is economics that will explain the JFK assassination. As I pointed out at the beginning of the thread, JFK posed a serious threat to the wealth of the Texas oilmen. As a result of the Kennedy wealthy oilmen had seen a fall in their earnings on foreign investment from 30 per cent to 15 per cent. It is estimated that the proposed removal of the oil depletion allowance would result in a loss of around $300 million a year. We are talking about large sums of money. In fact, when the oil depletion allowance was eventually reduced, it resulted in Clint Murchison going bankrupt. This was an issue of survival. They could not continue in business without the oil depletion allowance.

It is true that I do not name the members of the MICC involved in the assassination in this thread. However, I do in my seminar: “LBJ and the Assassination of JFK”. I name Lyndon Johnson, Richard Russell, George Brown, Clint Murchison and John McCone as being the key men in this group.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2310

It is of course impossible to say if any of these men were involved in the decision to assassinate JFK. They would never have left any evidence behind that would have won a conviction in court. People with that sort of power work like that. You say: “John suggests some rich old bastards were greedy enough not only to overlook whatever religious or moral scruples they might have for murder, but also to risk the death penalty.” My point is that “rich old bastards” never put themselves at risk of the death penalty. That is one of the advantages of being rich and powerful. You get other people to do the killing for you.

Moreover, let us assume the MICC conspirators were friends of LBJ (e.g., George Root and Murchison).  I suggest if they were smart enough to plan the assassination, they realized they could accomplish their purpose of replacing JFK with LBJ simply by waiting until after the election and then using the undisclosed sexual scandals to remove him from office.  Beside avoiding the risk of the death penalty, this method would remove Kennedy in a scandal while they surely must have known his murder would make him a martyr.

This strategy was not adopted because it would not have worked. I assume that when you talk about JFK’s “sex scandals” you are referring to his relationship with Ellen Romesch. It is true that JFK had been sleeping with a Soviet spy. However, LBJ’s supporters could not use this story to impeach JFK. Any investigation into this affair would have revealed how JFK met Romesch. As Bobby Baker revealed in Wheeling and Dealing, he was the one who got JFK involved with Romesch. Everybody knew that Baker was LBJ’s fixer. It would have been clear to everyone concerned that JFK had been set up by LBJ. He would never have been able to replace JFK in 1964.

Anyway, LBJ would not have been vice president in 1964. You seem to have forgotten that Don Reynolds testified in a secret session of the House Senate Rules Committee on the day that that JFK was assassinated, that LBJ had been getting a rake-off for setting up the TFX contract. LBJ’s friend, Fred Korth, had already been forced to resign as Navy Secretary because of this contract. It was only by becoming president on the 22nd November that LBJ could survive. If he had left it any later, LBJ would himself have been impeached. This would have resulted in a full exposure of how LBJ and the MICC was controlling the distribution of arms contracts.

[Tim Gratz]

[

This strategy was not adopted because it would not have worked. I assume that when you talk about JFK’s “sex scandals” you are referring to his relationship with Ellen Romesch. It is true that JFK had been sleeping with a Soviet spy. However, LBJ’s supporters could not use this story to impeach JFK. Any investigation into this affair would have revealed how JFK met Romesch. As Bobby Baker revealed in Wheeling and Dealing, he was the one who got JFK involved with Romesch. Everybody knew that Baker was LBJ’s fixer. It would have been clear to everyone concerned that JFK had been set up by LBJ. He would never have been able to replace JFK in 1964.

Anyway, LBJ would not have been vice president in 1964. You seem to have forgotten that Don Reynolds testified in a secret session of the House Senate Rules Committee on the day that that JFK was assassinated, that LBJ had been getting a rake-off for setting up the TFX contract. LBJ’s friend, Fred Korth, had already been forced to resign as Navy Secretary because of this contract. It was only by becoming president on the 22nd November that LBJ could survive. If he had left it any later, LBJ would himself have been impeached. This would have resulted in a full exposure of how LBJ and the MICC was controlling the distribution of arms contracts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Query whether JFK would have let LBJ be impeached. He still needed LBJ to carry Texas. Moreover, his own presidency (candidacy) would have been damaged had his VP been impeached or had to resign in a scandal. So JFK had personal reasons to protect LBJ.

LBJ must have known about JFK's involvement with Rometsch through either Bobby Baker or J. Edgar Hoover.

So they both had "the goods" on each other.

I recently came across a discussion of how the Baker scandal was "contained" after LBJ became president. From Ch 14 of Perlstein's "Before the Storm":

"In late January [of 1964] when Republicans tried to get Walter Jenkins, Johnson's most intimate aide, to testify before a Senate subcommittee investigation, Johnson put in the fix. Two psychiatrists appeared to testify that ab appearence would--literally--kill him. [Republican] Carl Curtis moved to call Jenkins to the stand anyway. He lost 6-3 in a party line vote. . . . Curtis lost again when he moved to make the record of the sessionpublic. The investigation closed without a single Administration witness being called."

[Wim Dankbaar]

. Powerful figures in the MICC approached David Atlee Phillips about arranging the assassination of JFK. He is also instructed to make it look like the assassination has been carried out by supporters of Castro. Phillips is also told to tell the people he recruits that the operation is being paid for by organized crime figures with links to the anti-Castro movement. It is claimed that this is being done to stimulate an invasion of Cuba and the overthrow of Fidel Castro.

Phillips discusses the operation with David Morales.  The two men  recruit Rip Robertson to organize the assassination. He is not told who is paying for the assassination. He is instructed that he must make sure the assassination looks like a pro-Castro operation. Robertson decides to use members of Interpen (a group he had worked with before in Cuban operations).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This post will comment on the possible participation of CIA employees David Atlee Phillips and David Morales in the assassination.

Almost every assassination researcher believes that David Atlee Phillips was the mysterious Mr. Bishop and that Veciana observed Phillips meeting with Oswald in Dallas shortly before the assassination.

I think we may have had this discussion before but it is probably posting in this thread: if Phillips was really involved in the plot, the last thing he would want would be to be observed with the patsy shortly before the assassination. Therefore, if indeed Veciana saw Phillips with Oswald, it is highly illogical to postulate that Phillips was a conspirator. Moreover, there is no evidence that he was.

The case of Morales is different. As I am sure every Forum member knows, Morales made an admission of sorts in front of his attorney and a friend that he was involved in the assassination. The question may be whether Morales was smart enough to plan it. This issue may be why John suggests the involvement of Phillips. But if Phillips was smart enough to plan it, he was surely smart enough to stay the heck away from Oswald.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This assumes that a man like Phillips does not make mistakes. I would be careful with such assumptions, because they might cut your path to the truth. We do not know how that meeting between Phillips and LHO came about. Maybe it was Lee who just walked up to him. Maybe it was Lee who WANTED to be seen with Phillips. There are numerous indications that Lee was made to believe he was to infiltrate the plot in order to prevent the assassination. But there are also indications that felt he was being setup and that he did not trust Phillips, who according to several sources was his CIA controller. Apart from that, I think Phillips would not have been to worried about being seen with LHO in a public place. Who would remember LHO with Phillips in a lobby anyway, other than people who knew Phillips and were supposed to be trusted CIA people? Remember he chose this public place for a meeting with Veciana, the leader of Aplha 66. I would expect him not to choose such a place for a meeting with Veciana either, but yet it seems that he did.

But now that I think of it, we could alos speculate that Phillips was worried about Veciana being able to place him in the presence of LHO and therefore sent Disodado to inquire if Veciana would volunteer this information. I have another consideration that I think you are overlooking. If they had already intended to frame Lee for the assassination at the time of this meeting (Veciana, Phillips, Oswald), and I think it is fair to assume that, then they had not intended to have Lee escape the TSBD and be in custody for televisoin camera's and press coverage. I think they had intended to kill him right away. The fact that Veciana recognized Oswald was because of all the media coverage on him. This would not have happened if they had killed Lee right after the fact, which seems to have been the original plan. There would only have been shown some existing photo's of Lee, like probably the backyard photos. There would not have been moving tv footage. I think the chance for Veciana to recognise Oswald would have been much much slimmer. I'm pretty sure you haven't thought of that. It means Phillips would have felt relatively safe.

And by the way, Fonzi established that Morales was a close sidekick of David Atlee Phillips. Phillips was an ideal man to plan such an operation and use men like Morales. He was also in on the overthrow of Arbenz and Allende.

No evidence that Phillips was a conspirator in the JFK assassination? I guess you are not aware of it then, I won't even aks you to take into account James Files. Also there is no doubt that David Atlee Phillips was Maurice Bishop. Even Veciana confirmed that to Fonzi (read chapter "the final confirmation"). Another good source is Anthony Summers book Conspiracy. Ever heard of Ron Cross? You should also read ZR-Rifle by Claudia Furiati. and her interview with Fabian Escalante.

This is what Fonzi wrote me a few years back:

As I said, the final brick in Phillips-Bishop foundation was put in place for me when I went to Cuba and Escalante provided information that confirmed it.

best,

Gaeton

Edited December 17, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar

[Shanet Clark]

No matter who I may theorize was ultimately responsible, these characters, from the Mafia and CIA intertwinement, fill in a center position. There are two planes of interest, and they intersect.

One plane of interest runs from Giancana through Jack Ruby, Licavoli, Harrelson and Files, possibly.

Another plane of interests includes Alpha 66 & Interpen, the angry Bay of Pigs commandos who came back together at the Watergate burglary, Gerry Hemmings, Morales, Rip Robertson and David Attlee Bishop Phillips. Santo Trafficante was intertwined with both groups.

The real focus, the intersection of the CIA subset and the Mafia group who wanted Kennedy dead was JOHNNY ROSELLI....now if that is disinfo, and a limited hang out of information as desired by someone above them in establishment credibility (Like GHW Bush, Maxwell Taylor or C.D.Dillon, Dulles, Murchison, McCone and McCloy) THEN WE HAVE NO FIRM EVIDENCE OF THIS, so we cannot discard the facts of the two planes being central to the plot as we know it ... The possibility of JFK's "Incapacity" and the lack of protection on 11/22/63 from Army Intelligence and the 1963 Secret Service raises the stakes, but we have little evidence of their complicity before the fact. Some, but not as much as we have on Chicago and the WH station MC.

[John Simkin]

Now, I want to say that I want to use several posts to discuss specific suggestions John has made. Here I will comment on the suggestion that the Malcolm Wallace fingerprint was planted to ensure LBJ's cover-up of the assassination.

First, the use of the Malcolm Wallace fingerprint to frame LBJ to ensure his participation in the cover-up. If LBJ's good friend Hoover discovered a Wallace fingerprint early on (in time to motivate the cover-up) and (as John's scenario suggests) he knew Johnson was being framed, why did he just not get rid of the evidence? Why would it be left in the TSBD to be discovered later?

Obviously any explanation of the assassination needs to account for the Wallace fingerprint. Presumably, there are only four possibilities: 1) interpretation error, not really his fingerprint; 2) planted, for whatever reason, but much closer to the date of the discovery of the print; 3) although it has not yet been discovered, Wallace had a part-time job in the TSBD; or 4)Wallace did in fact participate in the assassination (with or without LBJ's knowledge).

I am myself slightly uncomfortable about the Malcolm Wallace fingerprint. (It is not an important part of my theory and probably I should not have referred to it in my original posting.) I am not sure it existed. Even if it did, I am not sure Hoover was aware of it at this stage of the investigation. Hoover had files on all leading American politicians and would have known a great deal about Johnson’s past. Hoover would have been aware that Wallace was a problem for Johnson. However, from the LBJ’s tapes it would seem that Johnson was in control of the situation. Hoover would have been unhappy with Johnson’s decision to go for the “non-political, lone gunman” theory. Yet he eventually agreed to this strategy. As I have explained, there were political reasons why Hoover did this. Maybe LBJ blackmailed him into this position. We know via Bobby Baker’s Wheeling and Dealing and Robert Caro’s books that like Hoover, LBJ had files on everyone. Hoover was himself very vulnerable (his homosexuality along with his passion for wearing women’s clothes). Apparently there were photographs of this that were in the possession of Meyer Lansky. According to Lansky, this was the reason why Hoover claimed that the Mafia did not exist. These photographs might have been obtained by Carlos Marcello who spent holidays with Hoover and Clyde Tolson.

Other than the fingerprint, Loy Factor is the other source of information on this. Factor claims that Oswald, Wallace and himself were the three gunman in the TSBD. Factor is another James Files. He was serving a 44 year sentence for murder and had nothing to lose and a great deal to gain by making this confession. Interesting, Glen Sample, Factor’s leading advocate (The Men on the Sixth Floor) insists that the Wallace fingerprint is not genuine.

[Tim Gratz]

. Powerful figures in the MICC approached David Atlee Phillips about arranging the assassination of JFK. He is also instructed to make it look like the assassination has been carried out by supporters of Castro. Phillips is also told to tell the people he recruits that the operation is being paid for by organized crime figures with links to the anti-Castro movement. It is claimed that this is being done to stimulate an invasion of Cuba and the overthrow of Fidel Castro.

Phillips discusses the operation with David Morales.  The two men  recruit Rip Robertson to organize the assassination. He is not told who is paying for the assassination. He is instructed that he must make sure the assassination looks like a pro-Castro operation. Robertson decides to use members of Interpen (a group he had worked with before in Cuban operations).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This post will comment on the possible participation of CIA employees David Atlee Phillips and David Morales in the assassination.

Almost every assassination researcher believes that David Atlee Phillips was the mysterious Mr. Bishop and that Veciana observed Phillips meeting with Oswald in Dallas shortly before the assassination.

I think we may have had this discussion before but it is probably posting in this thread: if Phillips was really involved in the plot, the last thing he would want would be to be observed with the patsy shortly before the assassination. Therefore, if indeed Veciana saw Phillips with Oswald, it is highly illogical to postulate that Phillips was a conspirator. Moreover, there is no evidence that he was.

The case of Morales is different. As I am sure every Forum member knows, Morales made an admission of sorts in front of his attorney and a friend that he was involved in the assassination. The question may be whether Morales was smart enough to plan it. This issue may be why John suggests the involvement of Phillips. But if Phillips was smart enough to plan it, he was surely smart enough to stay the heck away from Oswald.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This assumes that a man like Phillips does not make mistakes. I would be careful with such assumptions, because they might cut your path to the truth. We do not know how that meeting between Phillips and LHO came about. Maybe it was Lee who just walked up to him. Maybe it was Lee who WANTED to be seen with Phillips. There are numerous indications that Lee was made to believe he was to infiltrate the plot in order to prevent the assassination. But there are also indications that felt he was being setup and that he did not trust Phillips, who according to several sources was his CIA controller. Apart from that, I think Phillips would not have been to worried about being seen with LHO in a public place. Who would remember LHO with Phillips in a lobby anyway, other than people who knew Phillips and were supposed to be trusted CIA people? Remember he chose this public place for a meeting with Veciana, the leader of Aplha 66. I would expect him not to choose such a place for a meeting with Veciana either, but yet it seems that he did.

But now that I think of it, we could alos speculate that Phillips was worried about Veciana being able to place him in the presence of LHO and therefore sent Disodado to inquire if Veciana would volunteer this information. I have another consideration that I think you are overlooking. If they had already intended to frame Lee for the assassination at the time of this meeting (Veciana, Phillips, Oswald), and I think it is fair to assume that, then they had not intended to have Lee escape the TSBD and be in custody for televisoin camera's and press coverage. I think they had intended to kill him right away. The fact that Veciana recognized Oswald was because of all the media coverage on him. This would not have happened if they had killed Lee right after the fact, which seems to have been the original plan. There would only have been shown some existing photo's of Lee, like probably the backyard photos. There would not have been moving tv footage. I think the chance for Veciana to recognise Oswald would have been much much slimmer. I'm pretty sure you haven't thought of that. It means Phillips would have felt relatively safe.

Gaeton

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I respectfully suggest that being seen in a public place with a man that you intend to frame as the killer of the President of the United States is a mistake of rather collassal proportions, different in kind than, say, forgetting one's briefcase in a public place. Even if the plot included LHO being killed before 11/22/1963 was over (as I am sure it did if this scenario is correct) Phillips could not count on LHO being killed immediately and even if he had been the media coverage would have been phenomenal. Phillips, whose expertise was the media, would have known this. Moreover, the concern would probably not be with a passeby remembering LHO, it would be with VECIANA remembering the incident. So I still believe that if this incident occured what it demonstrates is that: 1) LHO had ties to the CIA; 2) Phillips had nothing to do with the assassination; and 3) the CIA probably had nothing to do with the assassination since it would be foolhardy for the CIA to frame one of its own agents for the assassination.

If the incident did occur, I agree with you that logic suggests that Diosdado was sent to talk to Veciana to determine whether Veciana would volunteer information about the incident. Rules of intelligence would suggest that Diosdado would not have been told the resason for his assignment. To get further "up" the chain, though, it would be helpful to determine who gave Diosdado his assignment. As you know, Diosdado is still alive.

We need to, however, consider all of the possibilities. What if the Phillips/Oswald meeting never occured but Veciana simply made it up? A number of reasons for such a fabrication suggest themselves. First, Veciana, by his story to Fonzi, was upset with Bishop. But what if Veciana was a double agent. That would explain why he escaped Cuba while his conspirator in that assassination scheme was caught.

The connection between Veciana and the Odio family is certainly interesting.

Finally, what evidence exists that Phillips was Oswald's "controller"?

Edited December 18, 2004 by Tim Gratz

[John Simkin]

Just a question:  if there was no involvement of organized crime, how did Ruby get involved?

After the failure to kill Oswald soon after the assassination, it was necessary for him to be eliminated. As I explained, the Mafia plot was Plan B. Therefore someone with Mafia links had to persuaded to kill Oswald. However, Johnson insisted on the lone gunman theory. Therefore, the Warren Commission had to cover up Ruby’s links with organized crime. In the long run this helped Plan B as it reinforced the idea was to cover up the Mafia’s role in the assassination of JFK.

[Tim Gratz]

Just a question:  if there was no involvement of organized crime, how did Ruby get involved?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After the failure to kill Oswald soon after the assassination, it was necessary for him to be eliminated. As I explained, the Mafia plot was Plan B. Therefore someone with Mafia links had to persuaded to kill Oswald. However, Johnson insisted on the lone gunman theory. Therefore, the Warren Commission had to cover up Ruby’s links with organized crime. In the long run this helped Plan B as it reinforced the idea was to cover up the Mafia’s role in the assassination of JFK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obviously I realize much of this must remain speculative absent a confession. But if the Mafia was not involved in the JFK assassination, how was Ruby "persuaded" to kill LHO?

Have you heard the story (not sure what to call it) that on either the day of or the day after the murder of LHO, someone from a crime-controlled casino in Las Vegas made the call to Melvin Belli's office to line him up to defend Ruby? I suspect Ruby was promised the best lawyer to get him off. Perhaps they should have gotten Johnny Cochran. (Now I know he was not practicing in 1963!)

[Wim Dankbaar]

Finally, what evidence exists that Phillips was Oswald's "controller"?

-------------------------------

I thought you had seen the James Files interview? Furthemore I believe Judyth Baker's story, and her account is that Lee's CIA contact was "Mister B" and in her last telephone conversation with Oswald he told her to never forget the name David Atlee Phillips becuuse he believed he was a traitor.

Furthermore, there is no doubt in my mind that Phillips was Maurice Bishop, as I pointed out before, ther is conclusive evidence for that, and Veciana places Bishop (thus Phillips)

talking to Oswald in Dallas. One more note to that is that Veciana was early for his appointment. It is likely that he did not intend to be seen with LHO by Veciana.

Then there is the vanished anti Castro training film that Robert Tanenbaum saw during the HSCA. He is now very shy to comment on this, but in his novel he identifies people like David Ferrie, Lee Harvey Oswald, Guy Banister, David Ferrie and David Atlee Phillips in it. He has confirmed the existence of this film in his testimony for the ARRB. Judyth Baker had seen this film too in the summer of 1963 when Ferrie (if I recall correctly) and Oswald were working on it. Tanenbaum also believed firmly that Phillips had been lying in his testimony before the HSCA, and wanted to call him back. The Committee's refusal was one of he reasons why he resigned.

Phillips also told a cuban double agent , who picked out a photograph of Phillips to identify a man he knew as "Bishop", that when he was on Arlington cemitary he had "seized the opportunity to piss on Kennedy's grave", which was probably a joke to explain his contempt for JFK.

There is an additional account from Gordon Novel, that places Phillips in the middle of the usual suspects, although I do not know how reliable that is.

See below

All this, leaves me with no doubt whatsoever that Phillips played a major role in the planning of the Kennedy assassination and was Lee's CIA controller.

Wim

http://www.realhistoryarchives.com/collect...eeport-cuba.htm

Arcacha, Banister, and "Mr. Phillips"

Probe has turned up a long lost transcript of a deposition of a person whose name would be instantly recognized by anyone who has studied the Kennedy assassination. It is our hope to reveal the source of this deposition to the ARRB if and when they come to the West Coast.

In this deposition, we find the following startling information. Picking up where the witness was telling how Sergio Arcacha Smith, one of Garrison's original suspects in the Kennedy assassination planning, had invited the witness to a meeting in Guy Banister's office:

Q: Did you go alone to that meeting?

A: As I recall, I did, yes.

Q: Who was there?

A: Mr. Banister, Mr. Arcacha Smith, and Mr. Phillips.

Q: Do you know his first name [meaning Phillips]?

A: No.

Q: Had you seen him before?

A: No.

Q: Was he a Latin?

A: No.

Q: What was his interest in the meeting?

A: He seemed to be running the show.

Q: Telling Banister and Arcacha Smith what to do?

A: His presence was commanding. It wasn't in an orderly military situation, you know. It was just they seemed to introduce Mr. Phillips.

Q: How old a man was he?

A: I would say he was around 51, 52 [Note: the speaker is young.]

Q: American?

A: American.

Q: Was he identified as to his background?

A: No.

Q: Were hints dropped as to his background?

A: Just that he was from Washington, that's all.

Q: Did you assume from that he was with the CIA?

A: I didn't assume anything, I never assume anything. . . .I think someone mentioned something about this conversation isn't taking place.

The project that Banister and Arcacha and Mr. Phillips were working on, according to the witness, was to be a televised anti-Castro propaganda program, something that would have been in the direct purview of David Phillips as chief of propaganda for Cuban operations at that time.

http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr900-ang.html

Other CIA people who show up often in this story include David Atlee Phillips of the Western Hemisphere division, who worked with Bill Harvey and later Des Fitzgerald on Cuban operations; Win Scott and his "right-hand man" Anne Goodpasture from the Mexico City station; John Whitten ("Scelso") of the Western Hemisphere, Division 3; Charlotte Bustos of the Mexico City desk at Headquarters; and Richard Helms and his deputy Thomas Karamessines, who play large roles in the pre- and post-assassination paper trail. We should also note that the entire Western Hemisphere was run by J. C. King, a man closely linked to Nelson Rockefeller. King himself had been involved in the CIA’s assassination plots involving Castro and Trujillo.3

--------------------

Phillips is the CIA man who most closely ties Angleton in the frequency of his appearance in the assassination story. Phillips appears to have been seen in the presence of Oswald by Antonio Veciana.21 And a "Mr. Phillips" who was running CIA operations against Cuba at a time when that was David Phillips’ job was seen by Gordon Novel in the presence of Guy Banister and Sergio Arcacha Smith, who were themselves in turn seen with Oswald. Oswald even rented an office in Banister’s building that had previously been rented by Sergio Arcacha Smith.22 When the HSCA investigators tracked down the many false "Castro did it" leads, they kept tracing back to assets run by Phillips.23 Dan Hardway, who had much documentation to support that allegation, told Gaeton Fonzi,