The Motorcade Puzzle

[Chris Davidson]

These are the same frames (albeit from different sources) as Groden's version.

Quality is a little better. imo

Groden's appears to be complete minus a few at the very beginning (before the sync point - not important at this time).

This stabilized (my work) gif is from one of the other sources (one of the countless JFK specials with bits and pieces).

The gif starts with the same Bell frame I equated to the Z435 sync and ends with the underpass sync.

The span = 29 progressive frames.

[Mark Tyler]

On 10/18/2019 at 1:07 AM, Chris Davidson said:

These are the same frames (albeit from different sources) as Groden's version.

Quality is a little better. imo

Groden's appears to be complete minus a few at the very beginning (before the sync point - not important at this time).

This stabilized (my work) gif is from one of the other sources (one of the countless JFK specials with bits and pieces).

The gif starts with the same Bell frame I equated to the Z435 sync and ends with the underpass sync.

The span = 29 progressive frames.

So you think the Zapruder gap is Z435 to Z469 (34 frames), with the Bell gap being 29 frames?  If Zapruder was 18.3 FPS then this makes Bell about 15.6 FPS, which seems fairly close to the quoted rate for Bell's camera you mentioned in an earlier post (i.e. 16 FPS).

By contrast if Zapruder was running a bit slower at say 17.3 FPS, then this section of Bell would have been 14.8 FPS.  With Zapruder at 17.3 FPS, that makes the Wiegman film about 30.1 FPS between Z295 and Z447.

This is all within acceptable boundaries I would say, both in terms of the cameras and also my study of the Wiegman timing anomaly in section C of the handbook.  As always though, there are margins for error, so an extra frame or two here or there will change the ratio dramatically as 29 sample frames is quite a small range.

[Chris Davidson]

The sample range will grow larger as I continue on.

I believe you used 18.3fps(average) for Z, I will stick with 15.6fps (average) which is quite close to its factory spec.

The progressive frame count from my sync point (Z435) to the end of Bell is 81 frames.

81/15.6 = 5.19sec.

[Mark Tyler]

16 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

The sample range will grow larger as I continue on.

I believe you used 18.3fps(average) for Z, I will stick with 15.6fps (average) which is quite close to its factory spec.

The progressive frame count from my sync point (Z435) to the end of Bell is 81 frames.

81/15.6 = 5.19sec.

This sounds plausible Chris.  The Limo travels from the position shown at Z435 to a spot just beyond the shadow of the bridge on the far side in 5.19 secs, which equates to a car speed of 25-30 MPH.  At roughly that time Daniel starts recording his film from the other side of the bridge.

After this I think Bell stops for 5-10 seconds (perhaps to wind the camera up again), and when he restarts he catches the National Press Pool car whizzing past the steps on the knoll (just as Paschall did).  Then he films Zapruder/Sitzman, Hargis, and Wiegman filming Mr & Mrs Hester.

[Robin Unger]

Bell Gif 

frames taken from "The lost bullet Documentary"

 

[Chris Davidson]

On 10/20/2019 at 6:44 AM, Mark Tyler said:

This sounds plausible Chris.  The Limo travels from the position shown at Z435 to a spot just beyond the shadow of the bridge on the far side in 5.19 secs, which equates to a car speed of 25-30 MPH.  At roughly that time Daniel starts recording his film from the other side of the bridge.

After this I think Bell stops for 5-10 seconds (perhaps to wind the camera up again), and when he restarts he catches the National Press Pool car whizzing past the steps on the knoll (just as Paschall did).  Then he films Zapruder/Sitzman, Hargis, and Wiegman filming Mr & Mrs Hester.

Agreed, and with this said, let's also include the times from extant z313 as a running count. This might make it easier for others to follow along.

Z313 - z435 = 122/18.3 =       6.66sec

Bell Sync z435 to Bell Stop = 5.19sec

I believe you have the Paschall start at 18:56 in your animation.

This would equal a gap between Bell stop/Paschall start of 6.65sec.

I would tend to agree, but with a possible difference of .05sec (minimal), which I will not include moving forward.

6.66 + 5.19 + 6.65 = 18.5 sec

Up next, Paschall.

 

 

[Chris Davidson]

I used the bumper of the "national press pool" car for the sync between Bell/Paschall.

The beginning of Paschall until she syncs with Bell = 23 Paschall frames.

The Bell sync frame with Paschall, is also the beginning Bell frame (this will become clearer when I sync Bell/Wiegman) for the next sequence. The Bell frame inset is 1 frame after the sync. I used this frame because it's much clearer in terms of "bumper to stationary object" than the actual sync frame.

She used a Bell/Howell 8mm camera (18fps) according to a 1996 Greg Jaynes analysis.

23/18 = 1.28sec

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Tyler]

22 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Bell Gif 

frames taken from "The lost bullet Documentary"

 

Thanks for the GIF Robin and letting me know the source.  What caught my eye was the man on the left hand frame running towards the camera up the grass.  I assume this is one of the two people visible in frame 405 of the Zapruder film here:

He seems to be ducking which may relate to being in the direct line of fire for the shot at Z313, or one soon after.

With Tague slightly further to the left of the Bell frame being hit by shrapnel from the Z313 shot, or the shot I calculate as being fired around Z400, its interesting how all three of these people reacted and dashed away from the danger zone so quickly.  Does anyone know who this running man was, and whether he was interviewed?  I have christened him "Duck Man" until he can be identified properly!

He is also visible in the Paschall and Daniel films, so its a good opportunity to have a chronological overlap of four films: Zapruder, Bell, Paschell, and Daniel.  I have just put him into the animation and he seems to be running an average speed of 9 MPH (peaking at 11 MPH) from Z405 to when Daniel starts his film and "Duck Man" has reached the lamppost, which seems plausible for a running speed during the 12 seconds or so after the fatal shot.  While not the most important aspect of the crime scene, "Duck Man" does at least corroborate the timings of how the films overlap which is useful for this project.

[Mark Tyler]

21 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Agreed, and with this said, let's also include the times from extant z313 as a running count. This might make it easier for others to follow along.

Z313 - z435 = 122/18.3 =       6.66sec

Bell Sync z435 to Bell Stop = 5.19sec

I believe you have the Paschall start at 18:56 in your animation.

This would equal a gap between Bell stop/Paschall start of 6.65sec.

I would tend to agree, but with a possible difference of .05sec (minimal), which I will not include moving forward.

6.66 + 5.19 + 6.65 = 18.5 sec

Up next, Paschall.

 

 

I think this is correct Chris.

That few seconds of the Paschall film is rather interesting, not just for the car but also you can see Zapruder and Sitzman walking away from their position on their perch, which means they took just 5-10 seconds to get down after Zapruder stopped filming.  If the animation timings are correct, then it also means that Paschall filmed the knoll area 18.5 seconds after Z313 and the fatal shot.

Greg Jaynes suggests that there was some movement behind the picket fence at that time, and he calculated this to be 16.45 seconds after the fatal shot at Z313:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/P Disk/P Letter/Item 55.pdf

I've only viewed poor quality versions of this film so I've not seen this movement in detail, only a flicker of light which could simply be tree foliage moving in the breeze.  Has anyone else seen the original film?

10 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

I used the bumper of the "national press pool" car for the sync between Bell/Paschall.

The beginning of Paschall until she syncs with Bell = 23 Paschall frames.

The Bell sync frame with Paschall, is also the beginning Bell frame (this will become clearer when I sync Bell/Wiegman) for the next sequence. The Bell frame inset is 1 frame after the sync. I used this frame because it's much clearer in terms of "bumper to stationary object" than the actual sync frame.

She used a Bell/Howell 8mm camera (18fps) according to a 1996 Greg Jaynes analysis.

23/18 = 1.28sec

This looks about right Chris.  I have tweaked the timing of my "Bell 3" and Paschell yellow flashes to match your triangulation as it makes things a little easier to understand in the animation.  Thanks for the idea!  The Paschall flash also syncs the bus turning the corner onto Houston St - its amazing how much useful detail is contained in that few seconds of grainy old film.

On the subject of synchronizations, the Altgens 8 photo was taken around this time too:

This helps match the Paschell and Bell films as we see Zapruder walking in both.  Also, the Wiegman and Bell films due to Charles Hester jumping up soon after Altgens 8 was taken.

[Steve Thomas]

On 10/21/2019 at 10:27 AM, Robin Unger said:

Bell Gif 

frames taken from "The lost bullet Documentary"

 

 

Deleted

 

Steve Thomas

Edited October 22, 2019 by Steve Thomas

[Robin Unger]

Thanks Mark

Zapruder GIF showing the two running men.

[Robin Unger]

Life Magazine Paschall frame.

[John Butler]

44 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

Life Magazine Paschall frame.

Robin,

Glad to see that you are back and posting various things.  This Paschall frame is absolutely neat.  Better than the copy I have.  The red arrow points to Dallas Police Officer J. W. Foster on the Triple Underpass.

 

10 railroad men are nowhere near him.  He is not on the railroad bridge.  And, they are not either.  Great photo / frame.  It gives the lie to this:

 

[Chris Davidson]

10 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

Greg Jaynes suggests that there was some movement behind the picket fence at that time, and he calculated this to be 16.45 seconds after the fatal shot at Z313:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/P Disk/P Letter/Item 55.pdf

I've only viewed poor quality versions of this film so I've not seen this movement in detail, only a flicker of light which could simply be tree foliage moving in the breeze.  Has anyone else seen the original film?

 

 

 

Mark,

Thanks for the link. Some of the information in that PDF comes from his 1996 study. His study listed a total of 29 frames in reference to the previous span described.

The copy I have is also of poor quality, but good enough to pull out the first 23 frames, followed by the rest, after that sync.

 

 

[Chris Davidson]

There are a couple of sync points for Bell/Wiegman.

I used Charles Hester and his entry into the colonnade shadow as my sync point.

I lightened him as he appears in the background (just behind the foreground lamp post).

The other sync point is Beatrice moving her left hand/arm off the ground and backwards, if one desires to use this as a sync.

Difference from the Charles sync to the Beatrice sync = 7 Bell to 11 Wiegman frames

The Charles sync span equals 32 Bell frames = 32/15.6 = 2.05 sec.