Somebody Blew Up America

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Snopes isn’t buying the ‘4000 Jews didn’t show up for work’ theory. As for Al Franken, he wrote the line but never spoke it. Taken out of context from his 2003 book. 

I’m upset now. I’m no Israeli apologist, I just believe in fact checking. Honestly, those of you on this thread who are peddling these theories have been had, and need to realize that. What is super unfortunate about this is the possibility that members of this forum who are rightly concerned with what happened on 9/11 are now living proof of why these rumors circulate. Who is going to believe a conspiracy theorist when they espouse demonstrably false information? So the predictable result is that 9/11 conspiracy theorists will be dismissed and not taken seriously. 

Paul,

       Notice the sleight-of-hand here.   The story about Odigo warning people (in Hebrew) of the impending attacks on the World Trade Center on 9/11 was not about "Jews," per se.  It was about Israeli casualties on 9/11.

        As for Al Franken, I don't recall where I read about his alleged comment about being forewarned on 9/11.  Do you happen to have a link?  If he didn't say it, I was wrong to misquote him.

        Meanwhile, let's be honest about the 9/11 evidence, without resorting to deflective "Anti-Semitic" name-calling here.  Can we discuss the Mossad without being called, "Anti-Semitic?

1)  There is incontrovertible evidence that the five Mossad-affiliated "Dancing Israelis" arrested near the Holland Tunnel on 9/11 were seen filming and celebrating the WTC demolitions.  They even admitted that much on Israeli television (after being released to Israel by the FBI.)

2)   Their boss at Urban Moving Systems in Weehawken, N.J., Dominick Suter, fled to Israel before he could be questioned by the FBI.

3)   The story was completely blacked out of the mainstream U.S. media.

Those are verified facts.

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Paul,

       Notice the sleight-of-hand here.   The story about Odigo warning people (in Hebrew) of the impending attacks on the World Trade Center on 9/11 was not about "Jews," per se.  It was about Israeli casualties on 9/11.

        As for Al Franken, I don't recall where I read about his alleged comment about being forewarned on 9/11.  Do you happen to have a link?  If he didn't say it, I was wrong to misquote him.

        Meanwhile, let's be honest about the 9/11 evidence, without resorting to deflective "Anti-Semitic" name-calling here.  Can we discuss the Mossad without being called, "Anti-Semitic?

1)  There is incontrovertible evidence that the five Mossad-affiliated "Dancing Israelis" arrested near the Holland Tunnel on 9/11 were seen filming and celebrating the WTC demolitions.  They even admitted that much on Israeli television (after being released to Israel by the FBI.)

2)   Their boss at Urban Moving Systems in Weehawken, N.J., Dominick Suter, fled to Israel before he could be questioned by the FBI.

3)   The story was completely blacked out of the mainstream U.S. media.

Those are verified facts.

W. - I never used the term Anti-Semitic. I think it’s is loaded and misused, and I don’t like being called anti-Semitic when I criticize Israeli policies or question Zionism. I do revere facts. The problem with what you are presenting as facts is that I cannot verify. Al Franken did write those words in a book of political satire. If he was ever asked about it later I cannot find evidence of that. It is unclear how many Israeli citizens died in the twin towers, but at least 400 Jews did die. There is a report in Haaretz that comes from the massaging company Odigo a few weeks after 9/11. The company says that two users reported to the company that they got such a message. There is no follow up to that story that I can find. Who sent the message? How many got it? Who knows. Would I like to know! You bet.

As for dancing Israelis, the story is true to some extent, not not in the sensational way you report it. First of all, they were not filming before the fact. There is nothing supporting that. They were employed by a moving company. Was it a Mossad front? Maybe. We’re they happy about the destruction? Doesn’t quite look that way. They were taking pics of themselves as well as of the twin towers from a perch that they found after the first building was hit. They appeared happy. So what? What does this prove? That Mossad was involved in the attack? They were taken into custody and grilled for weeks. Nothing came of it.

these kind of half baked stories do nothing to advance the cause of 9/11 research. But since you think it’s important, why don’t you flesh out what conclusions you have drawn?

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Paul Brancato

[W. Niederhut]

24 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

W. - I never used the term Anti-Semitic. I think it’s is loaded and misused, and I don’t like being called anti-Semitic when I criticize Israeli policies or question Zionism. I do revere facts. The problem with what you are presenting as facts is that I cannot verify. Al Franken did write those words in a book of political satire. If he was ever asked about it later I cannot find evidence of that. It is unclear how many Israeli citizens died in the twin towers, but at least 400 Jews did die. There is a report in Haaretz that comes from the massaging company Odigo a few weeks after 9/11. The company says that two users reported to the company that they got such a message. There is no follow up to that story that I can find. Who sent the message? How many got it? Who knows. Would I like to know! You bet.

As for dancing Israelis, the story is true to some extent, not not in the sensational way you report it. First of all, they were not filming before the fact. There is nothing supporting that. They were employed by a moving company. Was it a Mossad front? Maybe. We’re they happy about the destruction? Doesn’t quite look that way. They were taking pics of themselves as well as of the twin towers from a perch that they found after the first building was hit. They appeared happy. So what? What does this prove? That Mossad was involved in the attack? They were taken into custody and grilled for weeks. Nothing came of it.

these kind of half baked stories do nothing to advance the cause of 9/11 research. But since you think it’s important, why don’t you flesh out what conclusions you have drawn?

 

Paul,

    I admire your fact-checking habit, and appreciate it.  I read somewhere that Al Franken made that comment about being forewarned on 9/11, and certainly regret misquoting him, if that is the case.  (And I've been a fan of Al Franken since the days of "Franken and Davis" on SNL in the 70s.)

     As for the "Dancing Israelis" arrested near the Holland Tunnel on 9/11, I have read that at least two of them were known Mossad agents.  Some FBI data about them (including photos) was recently obtained (and published) through an FOIA request. They claimed that they were filming the WTC attacks on 9/11 in order to "document the event."  They were celebrating.  Their Urban Moving Systems employer, Dominick Suter, fled to Israel after their arrest, before the FBI could question him.

    The entire 9/11 Urban Moving Systems case has always been shrouded in secrecy in the U.S. media.

[John Kozlowski]

4 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Paul,

    I admire your fact-checking habit, and appreciate it.  I read somewhere that Al Franken made that comment about being forewarned on 9/11, and certainly regret misquoting him, if that is the case.  (And I've been a fan of Al Franken since the days of "Franken and Davis" on SNL in the 70s.)

     As for the "Dancing Israelis" arrested near the Holland Tunnel on 9/11, I have read that at least two of them were known Mossad agents.  Some FBI data about them (including photos) was recently obtained (and published) through an FOIA request. They claimed that they were filming the WTC attacks on 9/11 in order to "document the event."  They were celebrating.  Their Urban Moving Systems employer, Dominick Suter, fled to Israel after their arrest, before the FBI could question him.

    The entire 9/11 Urban Moving Systems case has always been shrouded in secrecy in the U.S. media.

The lawyer for Kurzburg said that he worked for Mossad in the past but in another country not the US. 

 A few of the pictures the FBI had released were taken the day before 9/11 while the men were working. They clearly show 9/10 on the bottom of the photo. These are the only pics that have the actual day of the month shown. The ones from 9/11 only show the month and year. One picture dated 9/10 shows Kurzburg holding up a lighter with the city skyline in the background. While that doesn’t prove anything it’s mighty suspicious. The FBI also claimed at one point that all of the pictures were destroyed.

[Kirk Gallaway]

 Lance called him on it.

And Robert with only 3 Jews died and 4000 Jews were tipped off and avoided it doesn't deny it.

I've heard some of those allegations before and I think they're total bullsh-t.

[Robert Harper]

9 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

with only 3 Jews died and 4000 Jews were tipped off

Prime example of the use of the ADL definition of Jew = Israeli. I wrote that  it was reported - and is memorialized in stone at the Memorial in NYC - that 3 Israeli Nationals died at the WTC and 2 died on the planes. Many Jews died that day and no one suggested otherwise. The equation is fallacious no matter what Messrs Netanyahu,  Pompeo, Trump or Galloway says.The whole concept of  Israel as the center of World Jewry is nonsense. Iran has had Jews living there for literally centuries and many countries of the world have seamlessly assimilated a Jewish population. The Vatican is a sovereign State but hardly a "democratic" one -  and although the administrative center of the billion Catholics worldwide, there is no pretense that a Catholic = a Vatican National. If the Swiss guards starting killing teenagers who claimed to have a ancestral right to land occupied by the Church would it be "anti-Catholic" to say so?  Since there is the oft noted "reverence" for facts on this site, one may as well start with proper use of terms.

It is somewhat surprising to find JFK "researchers" so ready to swallow another "big lie." One would think that the SBT was a lesson is deception. The number "4000" was released by the Israeli Foreign Ministry and such was used by the poet Baraka . Is it reasonable to think that there were more Equadorean and Colombian Nationals working at the WTC than Israelis? The Jerusalem paper Haaretz reported the Odigo messages - it wasn't "made up" by someone who wanted to cause trouble. Regarding the Al Franken quote - I recall reading that he said that Ed Koch called him since he knew he had an office at the WTC.  I noted it at the time but didn't pursue its accuracy.

Like many people I still have the desire to "believe" what the government says, but as I read illusions pop up. I read the 9/11 Report (which rather ingeniously managed to not mention at all the free fall of a 47 story building) and the follow up reports. I also read Dr Judy Wood's massive exposure of the use of thermite in the "explosion" at the WTC. Pierce Marshall's book Bamboozled showed how unlikely the narrative of the self taught "highjackers" was. David Ray Griffen's books brought the likely collaboration of the US neo-cons/ military complex and the Israeli intelligence services.The group Architects and Engineers for Truth about 9/11 stated categorically that no steel structured high rise in history ever collapsed because of a fire.Christopher Bollyn's books and presentations make a compelling case for the cui bono concept applicable to Israel and the US military. Is it not of concern that the US Government found it necessary to spend 30 million investigating Trump and 25 million investigating Clinton and only 15 million for the murder of over 2800 Americans on 9/11? There's a case for prioritizing, eh? The WTC site was never treated as a crime scene.There was never a trial even though the claim is that the "mastermind" of the attacks  still sits in Guantanamo. What more does one need to at least question the veracity of the Government version? But that's not enough for the "virtue signalers" who spring up to  smear and attack whenever one has the audacity to question what is perceived to be another "big lie." Is there any connection to the containment of the big lie when Alan-but-I-wore-underwear Dershowitz flew to Qatar and "persuaded" Al Jerzerra to withhold the USA showing of their explosive under cover documentary about AIPAC and its efforts to smear via the "anti-semitic" charge. Luckily all 4 parts are available on You Tube - that is until someone at google decides it's "hate speech." Also online is the documentary Defamation where it is acknowledged that the use of the "anti-semitic" charge is a "trick" to push people in a defensive mode. Another documentary online - Witchhunt - is a look at the use of such attacks on the Labor Party in the UK.

Lucky Larry Silverstein - Netanyahu's weekly phone pal - took control of the WTC 6 weeks before the attacks and had the hindsight to pay insurance for two "terrorist" attacks. He also managed to forget to inform his partners that he had a "dermatologist appointment" at 8 am on 9/11 so he didn't show up that day. Quite apart from the likelihood of an 8 am appointment with a dermatologist, what are the chances that he wouldn't even "remember" he had one until his wife "insisted" he go? Again via a Haaretz headline:  "Netanyahu Says 9/11 Terror Attacks Good for Israel."

It does nobody any goodt o deny rational considerations of facts. Who controlled the site, who benefited from the attack, and who controlled the cover-up, remain key questions--as they did in the JFK killing.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Robert Harper

[Paul Brancato]

4 hours ago, Robert Harper said:

Prime example of the use of the ADL definition of Jew = Israeli. I wrote that  it was reported - and is memorialized in stone at the Memorial in NYC - that 3 Israeli Nationals died at the WTC and 2 died on the planes. Many Jews died that day and no one suggested otherwise. The equation is fallacious no matter what Messrs Netanyahu,  Pompeo, Trump or Galloway says.The whole concept of  Israel as the center of World Jewry is nonsense. Iran has had Jews living there for literally centuries and many countries of the world have seamlessly assimilated a Jewish population. The Vatican is a sovereign State but hardly a "democratic" one -  and although the administrative center of the billion Catholics worldwide, there is no pretense that a Catholic = a Vatican National. If the Swiss guards starting killing teenagers who claimed to have a ancestral right to land occupied by the Church would it be "anti-Catholic" to say so?  Since there is the oft noted "reverence" for facts on this site, one may as well start with proper use of terms.

It is somewhat surprising to find JFK "researchers" so ready to swallow another "big lie." One would think that the SBT was a lesson is deception. The number "4000" was released by the Israeli Foreign Ministry and such was used by the poet Baraka . Is it reasonable to think that there were more Equadorean and Colombian Nationals working at the WTC than Israelis? The Jerusalem paper Haaretz reported the Odigo messages - it wasn't "made up" by someone who wanted to cause trouble. Regarding the Al Franken quote - I recall reading that he said that Ed Koch called him since he knew he had an office at the WTC.  I noted it at the time but didn't pursue its accuracy.

Like many people I still have the desire to "believe" what the government says, but as I read illusions pop up. I read the 9/11 Report (which rather ingeniously managed to not mention at all the free fall of a 47 story building) and the follow up reports. I also read Dr Judy Wood's massive exposure of the use of thermite in the "explosion" at the WTC. Pierce Marshall's book Bamboozled showed how unlikely the narrative of the self taught "highjackers" was. David Ray Griffen's books brought the likely collaboration of the US neo-cons/ military complex and the Israeli intelligence services.The group Architects and Engineers for Truth about 9/11 stated categorically that no steel structured high rise in history ever collapsed because of a fire.Christopher Bollyn's books and presentations make a compelling case for the cui bono concept applicable to Israel and the US military. Is it not of concern that the US Government found it necessary to spend 30 million investigating Trump and 25 million investigating Clinton and only 15 million for the murder of over 2800 Americans on 9/11? There's a case for prioritizing, eh? The WTC site was never treated as a crime scene.There was never a trial even though the claim is that the "mastermind" of the attacks  still sits in Guantanamo. What more does one need to at least question the veracity of the Government version? But that's not enough for the "virtue signalers" who spring up to  smear and attack whenever one has the audacity to question what is perceived to be another "big lie." Is there any connection to the containment of the big lie when Alan-but-I-wore-underwear Dershowitz flew to Qatar and "persuaded" Al Jerzerra to withhold the USA showing of their explosive under cover documentary about AIPAC and its efforts to smear via the "anti-semitic" 

Lucky Larry Silverstein - Netanyahu's weekly phone pal - took control of the WTC 6 weeks before the attacks and had the hindsight to pay insurance for two "terrorist" attacks. He also managed to forget to inform his partners that he had a "dermatologist appointment" at 8 am on 9/11 so he didn't show up that day. Quite apart from the likelihood of an 8 am appointment with a dermatologist, what are the chances that he wouldn't even "remember" he had one until his wife "insisted" he go? Again via a Haaretz headline:  "Netanyahu Says 9/11 Terror Attacks Good for Israel."

It does nobody any goodt o deny rational considerations of facts. Who controlled the site, who benefited from the attack, and who controlled the cover-up, remain key questions--as they did in the JFK killing.

I’m beginning to take umbrage. I never called anyone anti-Semitic. I don’t swallow propaganda. I’m quite clear minded, and no Israeli apologist. My main point is that if there was a conspiracy behind 9/11, and like you Robert I’ve come to the same conclusion for the same reasons, it’s counterproductive to throw the kitchen sink at it. If you or anyone thinks Mossad was involved, say it. If you want anyone to believe you or follow your logic and reasoning, be careful what you posit. I’ve looked at the sources for the various stories involving messaging protecting Israelis on 9/11. I’ve looked at the Franken statement and the Dancing Israelis. There is not enough there to make any of it worth mentioning. 

Then you throw in AIPAC and Dershowitz. I could not agree with you more. But wtf does that have to do with Mossad involvement on 9/11?

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Paul Brancato

[Paul Brancato]

11 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Paul,

    I admire your fact-checking habit, and appreciate it.  I read somewhere that Al Franken made that comment about being forewarned on 9/11, and certainly regret misquoting him, if that is the case.  (And I've been a fan of Al Franken since the days of "Franken and Davis" on SNL in the 70s.)

     As for the "Dancing Israelis" arrested near the Holland Tunnel on 9/11, I have read that at least two of them were known Mossad agents.  Some FBI data about them (including photos) was recently obtained (and published) through an FOIA request. They claimed that they were filming the WTC attacks on 9/11 in order to "document the event."  They were celebrating.  Their Urban Moving Systems employer, Dominick Suter, fled to Israel after their arrest, before the FBI could question him.

    The entire 9/11 Urban Moving Systems case has always been shrouded in secrecy in the U.S. media.

I’ll keep looking at the Urban Moving Systems story. Am I correct that they did not work in the Twin Towers? 

I am also a big fan of Franken - Vote For Me, Al Franken days. He was a great Senator, and he was treated shamefully by his colleagues. 

[Robert Harper]

49 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I’m beginning to take umbrage.

Paul- I certainly don't see why you are offended. I never said you were the anti word, although at least 3 posters here used that tired smear and it was to them, that I made reference. I believe WN's intentions were similar.

I "threw in" underwear wearing Dershowitz as an example of  the Israeli Lobby trying to control the narrative; of the perception of Israelis as anything other than victims and do gooders whose only concern is justice. Any suggestion of nefarious behavior is immediately met with accusations of anti-you-know-what. It's the finger in the dyke approach to ANY criticism--let a little in and who knows what will pour out. If the al jazeera  doc had been shown on 60 Minutes, say, it might have awoken Americans to the activity of this organization -that smears at the drop of a dime and keeps lists of college students who are concerned about the abuse of the Palestinians.

In a book by Robert Sherrill about LBJ called The Accidental President, a tactic of LBJ was relayed which I never forgot and which is pertinent to some of the responses to this thread. In the midst of an early campaign, Johnson suggested that perhaps they ought to pass the word around that his opponent likes to sleep in the barn with his sows. His manager said "Lyndon, we can call the man a pig f**ker," and Johnson's reply was--"No, but we can make the SOB deny it." 

[Guest]

 

20 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

I think the above comments are truly embarrassing to the community and anti-Semitic.

This is a JFK research community, or so I thought although, lately, it is mostly bashing of President Trump for everything.

Now it has really gone into the depths.

I cannot believe I am agreeing with Lance, but, by transposing JFK research into now 911 and showing a willingness to believe anything that is repeated without any evidentiary basis is simply sad and Lance's umbrella discussion on psychology regarding some conspiracy mindsets is actually proven correct by the above.  Perhaps we will soon see moon landing was faked, etc. comments going on in this forum by some.  In other words, you have literally just proven Lance's analysis correct by the above comments.  Congratulations.

If you have real evidence, prove it.  If not, quite repeating clear anti-Semitic comments that have been clearly proven false by multiple sources.

Thanks, Cory and others.  It is heartening to see that there are at least some members of the forum community who insist on a basic level of rationality and decency.  I will not belabor the point, but this discussion does indeed underscore what I have posted regarding conspiracy theorists.

Within the JFK conspiracy community, and almost all such communities, there are conspiracy theorists and Conspiracy Theorists.  The former, "conspiracy theorists," raise points that are grounded in evidence and logic and are worth examining and discussing.  Larry Hancock comes to mind.

The latter, "Conspiracy Theorists," are the focus of the serious research I have described.  They are the True Believers.  Largely because of psychological predispositions, they are drawn, like moths to a flame, to the most preposterous, non-evidence-based, irrational, nonsensical sort of theories that have zero chance of being true.  Often, like Mr. Niederhut, they became enamored of multiple conspiracy theories or use the same basic theory to explain completely unrelated events (e.g., the JFK assassination and 9/11).

Conspiracy Theorists are, or should be, an embarrassment to conspiracy theorists.  They make the entire community look silly.  They distract from serious discussion.  They waste vast amounts of time.  I have previously suggested, only half in jest, that if the CIA really were going to plant disinformation agents, they would look a lot more like Mr. Niederhut and the Harvey and Lee zealots than Lance or DVP.

I recently repeated on another thread Lance's Axiom, which has proved invaluable to me over the years:  "Just because someone is highly educated, occupies a responsible position, is high-functioning in most areas of his life and seems generally sane and reasonable, do not assume that there is not some corner of his life where he is pretty much completely insane."

Let's keep it in mind here.

When I pointed out the absurd and anti-Semitic nature of the original post, I had previously satisfied myself that the statistics quoted in it were false and simply 9/11 Truther blather (which took me perhaps 5 minutes).  Mr. Niederhut, who struts his stuff as a Harvard-educated psychologist, came back with his "Al Franken" post to show that even Jews recognize the Israeli involvement in the events of 9/11.  When the falsity of this example was pointed out to him, he sheepishly explained that he had "read it somewhere."

Read it somewhere?  Yeah, read it on just about every 9/11 Truther site on the planet.  Google "Al Franken" and "Jew call" and you will generate literally nothing but 9/11 Truther sites, forums and videos.  It is literally 9/11 Truther gospel.  It was Mr. Niederhut's - our Harvard-educated psychologist's - gospel.

Mr. Niederhut has previously established his dubious credentials as a 9/11 True Believer.  But let's examine how careful this Harvard-trained psychologist is in regard to what he believes and passes along, even to the extent of suggesting that I don't know what I'm talking about.

In short, how difficult is it to get at the truth of the Al Franken Matter?

For starters, here is Al Franken jocularly suggesting he blames Ann Coulter for 9/11:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iapFBzcuTsI.  You can also find Franken humorously imitating Henry Kissinger delivering the report of the 9/11 commission.  In a more serious vein, here is Franken taking George W. Bush to task for "blowing" the opportunity to bring the world together against terrorism after the tragic events of 9/11:    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaqvwFXYgN4.  Even more to the point, you can readily find videos of Franken interacting with 9/11 Truthers and telling them that he does not buy into their theories and does not believe 9/11 was an "inside job."

It took me precisely one YouTube search to discover all of these videos.

Here is the actual "Jew call" quote from Al Franken's comedic 2003 book, Lies (and the Lying XXXXX Who Tell Them), which is readily available online for free,  https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4ae5/27042113d1b5d399428feea8c7bb687323c8.pdf.  I spent perhaps 2 minutes finding it.  The book is satire and is full of obvious nonsense - God told Franken to write it, he once had an affair with a Supreme Court Justice, etc., etc.  Anyway, here you go:

Six months after 9/11, the Gallup Poll of Islamic Countries found that an overwhelming majority of those surveyed believed the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon had not been the work of Arabs. Well-educated Egyptians and Saudis believed that the Israelis were behind the murder of three thousand innocents on 9/11, in large part because of articles in their countries' official state newspapers. One of the widely disseminated stories was that no Jews died in the collapse of the Trade Towers because they had received calls telling them not to go to work that day. To tell you the truth, I got the Jew call. I had an office in the Trade Center where I used to do most of my writing. The call came from former New York mayor Ed Koch. "Al," he told me, "don't go to work on the twenty-third day of Elul." 

Actually, I watched the events of that awful day from Minneapolis, where I was visiting my mom. Mom's in a nursing home, so I was staying at a hotel. That morning, as I grabbed some coffee, I noticed people huddled around a TV A plane had hit the World Trade Center. Must have been a commuter plane. Maybe the pilot had a heart attack or something. Then the second plane hit. It was sickening. Then came the Pentagon. We were under attack.

See the "Actually" in the second paragraph, folks?  In the first paragraph, he gives us what is obvious nonsense - but just in case we didn't get the joke, he makes it more obvious in the next paragraph.

But no, the 9/11 Truthers never did get the joke.  Their train of logic would have to be that (1) Ed Koch, the former mayor of New York (who, incidentally, was emotionally devastated by 9/11), knew about the plan in advance (why Ed Koch?); (2) instead of alerting authorities, Koch called mid-level comedian Al Franken at a hotel  in Minneapolis (don't try to figure that one out - you'll injure yourself); and (3) Franken did nothing with the information but sit like a lump and admit it all in a book he wrote two years later.  Uh-huh.

What about Mr. Nierderhut's "Paul Wellstone" example, you ask?  Here it is:  https://harvardmagazine.com/2012/03/you-can-call-me-senator.  Contrary to what Niederhut says, Franken didn't report this conversation.  Wellstone himself did:  "Wellstone said he heard from Vice President Dick Cheney: 'If you vote against the war in Iraq, the Bush administration will do whatever is necessary to get you. There will be severe ramifications for you and the state of Minnesota.'"

The "mysterious" crash of Wellstone's plane, which Mr. Niederhut suggests was the work of Dark Forces?  The NTSB didn't think so, http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/11/18_zdechlikm_ntsbreport/:

Washington, D.C. — Investigators today laid the blame for the plane crash that killed Senator Paul Wellstone and seven others in October 2002 squarely in the laps of the pilots.  They told a hearing of the National Transportation Safety Board in Washington that the plane crashed because the pilots waited too long to lower the plane's landing gear, then slowed to a speed that would allow the gear to be lowered safely. When the gear was lowered, the airspeed quickly disintegrated and the plane stalled, then crashed in a swamp a quarter-mile from the runway, killing everyone aboard. 

Come on, people.  Call me all the names you want.  (Please come up with something more witty than Mr. Nierderhut's "Pay-Out," which I frankly don't understand.  Maybe someone can explain it to me.)  But don't get conned by Conspiracy Theorists like Mr. Niederhut and his ilk.  Characters like this are not doing your cause any favors.   They are True Believers who are sloppy in their thinking, sloppy in their research, and devoid of common sense and logic.  You have no obligation to cheerlead for their nonsense merely because they are conspiracy brothers and Lone Nutters are infidels.  If that's your attitude, your conspiracy theorizing has become a religion, and you might want to step back and ponder some of the studies I have cited.

And be sure to keep Lance's Axiom in mind.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Guest

[Paul Brancato]

On 8/8/2019 at 9:27 AM, W. Niederhut said:

One of my favorite politicians in America claimed that he got, "the Jew call" on 9/11-- warning him to stay away from the World Trade Center.

Lest I be accused by Lance Pay-out, again, of "Anti-Semitism," it was Al Franken.

As an aside, I read an interview of Al Franken in the Harvard Alumni Magazine a few years ago in which Franken discussed the death of his friend, Senator Paul Wellstone.  Franken said that Dick Cheney had directly threatened Wellstone about his opposition to the Iraq War shortly before Wellstone's plane mysteriously crashed in Minnesota.  At the time, Wellstone was a shoe-in for re-election to the U.S. Senate.

 

On 8/8/2019 at 8:59 AM, Robert Harper said:

Somehow out of the estimated 4,000 Israeli nationals who were in harms way, according to the Israeli foreign ministry, almost all managed not to be in the towers or anywhere near the carnage. Given an over-representation of Israelis in the financial services companies which leased space on the Twin Towers (including Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, American Express, Kidder Peabody, Duetsche Bank, Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, Bank of New York, Wachovia, Morgan Stanley) officials expected the Israeli toll to be catastrophic, from 400 to 500 or more. Odigo also had an app that could forward messages to a particular ethnic group .

The last posts by your detractors illustrate my point exactly. 9/11 is serious business. Good JFK researchers don’t dismiss the very real possibility that the attack was false flag, or that Islamic terrorism itself is itself a creation of our national security state, in whole or in part. What Mr. Harper and Mr. Niederhut have done is provide an easy target. If you talk about the third building, you can make a case. Since instead you’ve chosen to question prior knowledge by Israelis, you need to do better than quote the Israeli Foreign Ministry. Show us the quote. If you read it second hand and chose to believe a source, which we all  do from time to time, tell us where, and dig a little deeper. 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Paul Brancato

[W. Niederhut]

This LP gibberish is, truly, the worst LP stuff I've listened to since the early 60s, when my father used to play his favorite Mantovani LP, on occasion, after work-- featuring  syrupy, maudlin string ensembles of melodies like, "Charmaine," and "La Vie en Rose."

But let me say, on a serious note, that Payette's bovine excrement is highly offensive to me, personally.  It is a very serious, heinous thing to falsely accuse someone of "anti-Semitism."  The (physician) father of one of my former housemates in med school was a survivor of Dachau during WWII, and several of my former patients were from families murdered in the Holocaust.  My own father was a survivor of the U.S. 753rd Tank Battalion in WWII -- of San Pietro "fame"-- that liberated a German concentration camp at Lohr, among many other horrible experiences.

I would urge forum members to refrain from repeating Lance Payette's insulting, erroneous abuse of terms like, "anti-Semitism," and "conspiracy theorist" here. 

Anyone who knows me will vouch for the fact that I believe all people are entitled to equal, inalienable human rights, regardless of race, creed, color, or gender.  That is entirely inconsistent with "Anti-Semitism."

This is the last time I will be reading or responding here to the dishonest, slanderous posts of Lance Payette.

 

 

[Robert Harper]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

And be sure to keep Lance's Axiom in mind.

Thought this guy said "adios." Guess he's not a man of his word.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

This LP gibberish is, truly, the worst LP stuff I've listened to since the early 60s, when my father used to play his favorite Mantovani LP, on occasion, after work-- featuring  syrupy, maudlin string ensembles of melodies like, "Charmaine," and "La Vie en Rose."

But let me say, on a serious note, that Payette's bovine excrement is highly offensive to me, personally.  It is a very serious, heinous thing to falsely accuse someone of "anti-Semitism."  The (physician) father of one of my former housemates in med school was a survivor of Dachau during WWII, and several of my former patients were from families murdered in the Holocaust.  My own father was a survivor of the U.S. 753rd Tank Battalion in WWII -- of San Pietro "fame"-- that liberated a German concentration camp at Lohr, among many other horrible experiences.

I would urge forum members to refrain from repeating Lance Payette's insulting, erroneous abuse of terms like, "anti-Semitism," and "conspiracy theorist" here. 

Anyone who knows me will vouch for the fact that I believe all people are entitled to equal, inalienable human rights, regardless of race, creed, color, or gender.  That is entirely inconsistent with "Anti-Semitism."

This is the last time I will be reading or responding here to the dishonest, slanderous posts of Lance Payette.

 

 

The original post was anti-Semitic, as others have recognized.  The position of Poet Laureate of New Jersey was actually abolished because the poem that is quoted in the original post was deemed anti-Semitic, the poet refused to resign, and there was no legal mechanism to remove him.  You immediately endorsed the original post and the poem:  "The Garden State should pay Baraka's family his $20,000 plus interest. Would they really prefer a Poet Laureate who doesn't tell it like it is, or was?"

Following my first post, you continued with "Jews did it" theme, quoting an item of 9/11 Truther gospel that is blatantly false, the falsity of which can be determined in 15 minutes by anyone who cares whether what he spews is true or false.  You clearly had not done even the most rudimentary of fact-checking, despite the fact that you are both a licensed professional and a card-carrying 9/11 Truther.  When called out, you resorted to the lame "I read it somewhere."

You have been exposed, sir.  I don't call you anti-Semitic, nor do I need to.  You have been exposed for what you are.  Others can decide for themselves what that is.  At a minimum, you are someone who endorsed the anti-Semitic sentiments of the original post and the poem quoted therein, who made no attempt to verify the 9/11 Truther gospel before using it to suggest that I didn't know what I was talking about, and who had no better excuse than "I read it somewhere" as the egg yolk dripped off your face.

My "bovine excrement" is "personally offensive" to you?  I am shocked, shocked I tell you.  This is not about personalities.  This is about whether this forum has any standards of rationality and decency or is simply fair game for ANYTHING that anyone wants to say.  What I have pointed out about your posts is entirely factual.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Robert Harper said:

Thought this guy said "adios." Guess he's not a man of his word.

Don't cry now, big fella.  Blame Cory Santos and the others who recognized the anti-Semitic nature of your post.  They have inspired me, at least temporarily, that this place may not be as far gone as I had feared.  Perhaps you can explain what your 9/11 Truther nonsense is doing on a JFK Assassination Debate forum at all?

I will give you an ironclad "Adios" in at least one sense:  I will not be reading or responding to any more of your posts.  I have seen way more than enough for one lifetime.  Ditto for NiederNut (come on, folks, isn't that way more clever and apt than "Pay-Out," the meaning of which is still lost on me?).