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Donald Trump and Joseph P. Kennedy


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On 8/21/2019 at 11:14 AM, David Andrews said:

Socialism fails for the same reasons Capitalism does: like any system, it can be exploited for personal power, personal hatreds, greed, ambition, arrogating of personal resources - all the deadly sins of bureaucrats.  The Russians and Chinese fell prey, and became the worst advertisements for this social-governmental philosophy.  England made a bad job of the social welfare aspects, but it's still standing and relatively democratic.  The trick would be to avoid totalitarian Socialism, and to exercise governmental oversight over Socialist functions.

Americans should examine the abuses engendered under the unaffordable AHCA, the insurance conglomerates*, and the medical establishment, in particular the new syndication of medical practices compelling doctors to join a syndicate or suffer.  There's some arguments for Socialism, single-payer health care, and Big Government there.

*Any attempt to paint Obama as a Socialist fails with his actions regarding the first two items, just to start there.  The man of Hope was a(nother) shill for the house.

The loudest socialist fear promoters in this country are shameless hypocrites.

Is there any anti-socialist in the country who is collecting a social security check who then sends it back to the government because he or she feels this socialist program is such a threat and danger to our free market society well being?

Or turning down their automatic government subsidized Medicare health coverage?

There are no totally free market capitalist or socialist system countries in the world.

Every society has a mix of the two.  Societal needs dictate the balance.

Most industrialized countries are more socialistic than the U.S. and doing extremely well in the majority of world health measured standard of living and citizen satisfaction categories. Several measuring higher than our own!

The economic and standard of living divide between the wealthy, working and poorer classes in our own less socialistic country is now clearly much wider than the majority of the other industrialized and more socialized countries. 

We are a starkly contrasting mix of the most economically depressed, run down poorer parts of urban cities and rural trailer park meth addiction communities on one end of our demographic makeup and wealthy gated country club communities on the other to a shocking and disturbing degree.

Drive off the main highways in half the states to see the widespread reality of this scene.

Visit Mississippi or Alabama or West Virginia taking the back roads and tell us how great our less socialistic system really is compared to most of Europe for example.

We have a hugely financed socialist fear propaganda machine and agenda in this country second to none. Just the word "socialist" has been successfully exaggerated, promoted and accepted in the minds of millions ( Fox News fans ) to truly terrifying boogie man fear levels.

Until Franklin Roosevelt we allowed the tiny minority of American capitalist icons to have their way with labor and paying them as little as possible without any benefits until this system became so crushingly abusive and neglectful (off the charts during the depression ) it was leading to mass civil unrest including violence. 

That economic model of unfettered free market reign ( a small group of the most wealthy always looking to pay less and make more off the poorest labor ) was a greater threat to our democracy than most all the socialist programs we now see in most of our world's industrialized countries.

It's sad and frustrating to see half this country believing the opposite false reality of this truth.

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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           Well said, Joe.   The American middle class has fallen behind the middle classes of most Western European "social democracies" in metrics of prosperity -- income, wealth, healthcare access, education, vacation days, and retirement prospects.   And, as Paul Krugman has pointed out recently, the current denigration of "socialism" by the U.S. right wing media  is based on an erroneous concept of free market "social democracy" in Western Europe and the G-7.

           Western European capitalists were not able to destroy the labor movement and denigrate "socialism" as effectively as their American counterparts during the past 70 years.

           Edward Bernays' techniques, diligently implemented by our captains of industry, have played a major role in the destruction of "social democracy" in the U.S.-- along with the heavily-funded "misanthropic libertarian" machinations of Robber Barons like the Koch brothers, as described in Nancy MacLean's critically-acclaimed history of Koch-ism, Democracy in Chains.

           Our U.S. political culture has shifted so far to the right in recent decades that Eisenhower Republicanism (and even many of Reagan's policy positions!) would now be regarded as too "liberal" by most Tea Party Republicans.

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1 hour ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Anyone who is not alarmed by Trump's bizarre behavior this week is not paying attention.

I've treated a lot of people with narcissistic personality disorders over the years, but no one as severely impaired as Donald Trump.

The essence of NPD is what the psychoanalyst Heinz Kohut described as the "grandiose self" -- something which emerges in childhood as a defense against inner feelings of worthlessness.

People with NPD have fragile self-esteem, and typically become enraged when anyone criticizes them, disagrees with them, or confronts them about their shortcomings.

They also have grossly impaired perceptions of people, tending to either idealize or devalue others-- as a projection of their divided sense of self (worthless vs.wonderful.)

Trump has repeatedly appointed "idealized" staffers, (and wives) only to devalue, curse, and denigrate them, in time.

 

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1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Anyone who is not alarmed by Trump's bizarre behavior this week is not paying attention.

I've treated a lot of people with narcissistic personality disorders over the years, but no one as severely impaired as Donald Trump.

The essence of NPD is what the psychoanalyst Heinz Kohut described as the "grandiose self" -- something which emerges in childhood as a defense against inner feelings of worthlessness.

People with NPD have fragile self-esteem, and typically become enraged when anyone criticizes them, disagrees with them, or confronts them about their shortcomings.

They also have grossly impaired perceptions of people, tending to either idealize or devalue others-- as a projection of their divided sense of self (worthless vs.wonderful.)

Trump has repeatedly appointed "idealized" staffers, (and wives) only to devalue, curse, and denigrate them, in time.

 

How can you diagnose someone without personally examining them?  For all you know,  and you do not, publically it is an act.  Privately he could be different to some degree.  Sorry, diagnosing someone from an armchair and without a personal evaluation is concerning.  

Edited by Cory Santos
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2 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

How can you diagnose someone without personally examining them?  For all you know,  and you do not, publically it is an act.  Privately he could be different to some degree.  Sorry, diagnosing someone from an armchair and without a personal evaluation is concerning.  

Spoken like someone who's never been involved with a narcissist.  And you don't have to be trained to make the observation W.N. has.  Anyone who's done any soul searching and behavior watching can see it.  And Trump is definitely getting worse.  He can't help himself--it's no act!

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9 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

How can you diagnose someone without personally examining them?  For all you know,  and you do not, publically it is an act.  Privately he could be different to some degree.  Sorry, diagnosing someone from an armchair and without a personal evaluation is concerning.  

This was discussed 6 - 12 months after the election.  Seems like a hundred or so psychiatrists and/or psychologists agreed a full determination could not be ascertained without a personal interview, and anything short of that is inconclusive.  But, they also concluded from public statements he is a narcissist.  Unlike JFK.   

Edited by Ron Bulman
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It would seem to me that commonsense would dictate that is impossible to make a comprehensive diagnosis of a private individual without a personal interview but that rule would not apply to a public figure such as Donald Trump, President of the United States, who everyday makes declarations and decisions that clearly reveal to John Q. Public that he is a man who is of deteriorating mental health and obviously narcissistic.

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On 8/24/2019 at 11:42 AM, Cory Santos said:

How can you diagnose someone without personally examining them?  For all you know,  and you do not, publically it is an act.  Privately he could be different to some degree.  Sorry, diagnosing someone from an armchair and without a personal evaluation is concerning.  

 

There is a great deal of evidence in the public domain about Trump's personality disorder, including vignettes about his childhood history-- punching his music teacher in the eye in grade school, adamantly refusing to ever admit that he was wrong, truancy, and frequent detentions before being sent to a military school at age 13, etc.

And, yes, it is possible to make reasonably accurate inferences about the psychiatric disorders of public figures without a sit down interview.  The entire field of psychoanalytic history (Erik Erickson, Anthony Storr, et.al.) is predicated on that concept.   If anything, a comprehensive, longitudinal history is a far more sound basis for diagnosing some psychiatric disorders than a sit down interview-- especially in the case of antisocial personality disorders, where the subject is skilled at dissembling.

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2 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

There is a great deal of evidence in the public domain about Trump's personality disorder, including vignettes about his childhood history-- punching his music teacher in the eye in grade school, adamantly refusing to ever admit that he was wrong, truancy, and frequent detentions before being sent to a military school at age 13, etc.

And, yes, it is possible to make reasonably accurate inferences about the psychiatric disorders of public figures without a sit down interview.  The entire field of psychoanalytic history (Erik Erickson, Anthony Storr, et.al.) is predicated on that concept.   If anything, a comprehensive, longitudinal history is a far more sound basis for diagnosing some psychiatric disorders than a sit down interview-- especially in the case of antisocial personality disorders, where the subject is skilled at dissembling.

So please share your professional view on Jack Ruby, LHO, and JFK.  I am interested in your medical opinion.  Please provide your opinion to a reasonable degree of medical probability.

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3 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

So please share your professional view on Jack Ruby, LHO, and JFK.  I am interested in your medical opinion.  Please provide your opinion to a reasonable degree of medical probability.

That's a tall order, especially since I know less about JFK, Jack Ruby, and Lee Harvey Oswald than most of the forum members here.

As for Donald Trump's mental health, or lack thereof, here are two references.  (I've read Yale psychiatrist Dr. Bandy Lee's anthology, but not Dr. Justin Frank's analysis.)

Trump on the Couch: Inside the Mind of the President

https://www.amazon.com/Trump-Couch-Inside-Mind-President/dp/0735220328

 

The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President

https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Case-Donald-Trump-Psychiatrists/dp/1250179459/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_img_0/136-9913104-2347220?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=787JYHMSP6ADM7CZ9P0F

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23 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

That's a tall order, especially since I know less about JFK, Jack Ruby, and Lee Harvey Oswald than most of the forum members here.

As for Donald Trump's mental health, or lack thereof, here are two references.  (I've read Yale psychiatrist Dr. Bandy Lee's anthology, but not Dr. Justin Frank's analysis.)

Trump on the Couch: Inside the Mind of the President

https://www.amazon.com/Trump-Couch-Inside-Mind-President/dp/0735220328

 

The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President

https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Case-Donald-Trump-Psychiatrists/dp/1250179459/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_img_0/136-9913104-2347220?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=787JYHMSP6ADM7CZ9P0F

But, for the analysis to be devoid of argument of prejudice, I question if these experts are bipartisian truly concerned experts willing to forego the Goldwater rule or simply angry anti-Trump voters who happen to be professionals.  Do we know the background of these professionals?

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45 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

But, for the analysis to be devoid of argument of prejudice, I question if these experts are bipartisian truly concerned experts willing to forego the Goldwater rule or simply angry anti-Trump voters who happen to be professionals.  Do we know the background of these professionals?

     It's a fair question, especially since some highly paid forensic psychiatrists I have known have the ethical standards of street walkers.

     As for the Goldwater Rule, it was formally rejected by the American Psychoanalytic Association recently.

     

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