Steve Thomas Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Dixie, Unfortunately, I don't have a way to scan this Ryder photo on here. Perhaps someone else will do so. But, I still do wonder if Masen is also actually a LHO look-alike. Is this the one you mean? Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Steve, Mark Bridger has done a fantastic job of obtaining high school and other contemporary photos of Masen; they are published in the November issue of the Dealey Plaza Echo. with a side by side comparison to Oswald. Masen is a rther distinctive looking individual and I for one see only limited resemblance to LHO. I don't think I would ever confuse the two and I'm poor with faces; the good news is that with Mark's photos everyone can now make their own judgement. -- Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie Dea Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Steve... Thanks a bunch, that is the Dial Ryder photo that I had in mind. Larry.... Thanks also for your info. Do you have a way to attach the Masen photos that you mentioned? I would like to see them. Dixie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 Tim, John had suggested starting a thread about individuals who had "confessed" to participation in the assassination. Marita Lorenz and Rose Cheramie. Steve Thomas <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would not necessarily characterize their stories as "confessions" but they certainly merit careful consideration. As you know, Cheramie expressed knowledge of the assassination a few days prior thereto. She was traveling from Florida to Texas with men who were told her they were going to kill the President. I do not believe she was part of the plot. The men beat her and left her in New Orleans. Perhaps Lorenz's story is indeed a confession. She stated she was traveling with the men (and with weapons, I believe) to Dallas to kill Kennedy. As I recall her story, she left Dallas before the assassination. But her story is really a confession of participation in a conspiracy. I know Gaeton Fonzi did not believe her. What do the other Forum members believe about the Lorenz story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Sorry Dixie, I don't have a scanner. It may be that the DPUK folks will put scans on their WEB site; that would be a great service. I'll drop them a note on the interest. Don't know if any of the posters are are members are not but the DPUK folks do some very good research and have one of the few print research journals still being published. Mark Rowe is their US correspondance and membership person, he can be emailed at eworkram@aol.com -- Larry Steve...Thanks a bunch, that is the Dial Ryder photo that I had in mind. Larry.... Thanks also for your info. Do you have a way to attach the Masen photos that you mentioned? I would like to see them. Dixie <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanet Clark Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 When Howard Hunt went to civil trial against Victor Marchetti -- and lost -- the whole sworn testimony of Hunt and his CIA cronies and family, that material is not a confession, but it is a courtroom loss of alibi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 John Martino (From the John Martino page on the Spartacus web-site): John Martino was born in Atlantic City, New Jersey, in 1910. In his youth he got into trouble with the police as a result of his involvement in illegal gambling. In 1935 Martino moved to Miami. Soon afterwards he was arrested for running a lottery. During the Second World War Martino moved to Long Island and in 1943 he was arrested for loan sharking. Over the next few years he learned a great deal about electronics and became a specialist in gambling machines. This included developing devices that increased the profits of casino owners. In 1956 Martino was invited by Alan Roth to do some work in Cuba. Roth was manager of the Deauville Casino in Havana, owned by Santos Trafficante. Over the next three years Martino made a series of extended trips to the island. A fellow worker at the casino was a man called Louis McWillie, a close friend of Jack Ruby. In the summer of 1959 Martino was once again in Cuba. While in the Deauville Casino he made critical comments about Fidel Castro, the new leader of the country. He was overheard by a Castro supporter who reported him to the authorities. On 29th July, 1959, Martino was arrested and charged with trying to help people associated with Fulgencio Batista to escape from the island. Martino was held in prison for the next three years and was not released until October, 1962. With the help of Nathaniel Weyl, the right-wing journalist, Martino produced a book about his experiences, I Was Castro's Prisoner. Martino returned to the United States where he became involved in anti-Castro activities in Miami. Others involved with him included a former United States Ambassador, William Pawley, Gerry P. Hemming, Felipe Vidal Santiago, Eddie Bayo and Frank Sturgis. In the winter of 1962 Eddie Bayo claimed that two officers in the Red Army based in Cuba wanted to defect to the United States. Bayo added that these men wanted to pass on details about atomic warheads and missiles that were still in Cuba despite the agreement that followed the Cuban Missile Crisis. Bayo had originally fought with Fidel Castro against Fulgencio Batista. He disagreed with Castro's policies after he gained power and moved to Miami and helped establish Alpha 66. His story was eventually taken up by several members of the anti-Castro community. William Pawley became convinced that it was vitally important to help get these Soviet officers out of Cuba. To help this happen he contacted James Eastland, the chairman of the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee about this matter. William Pawley also contacted Ted Shackley, head of the CIA's JM WAVE station in Miami. Shackley decided to help Pawley organize what became known as Operation Tilt. He also assigned Rip Robertson, a fellow member of the CIA in Miami, to help with the operation. David Sanchez Morales, another CIA agent, also became involved in this attempt to bring out these two Soviet officers. In June, 1963, a small group, including Martino, William Pawley, Eddie Bayo, Rip Robertson and Richard Billings, a journalist working for Life Magazine, secretly arrived in Cuba. They were unsuccessful in their attempts to find these Soviet officers and they were forced to return to Miami. Bayo remained behind and it was rumoured that he had been captured and executed. However, his death was never reported in the Cuban press. In an article published in January, 1964, Martino claimed in had important information about the death of John F. Kennedy. He argued that in 1963 Fidel Castro had discovered an American plot to overthrow his government. It was therefore decided to retaliate by organizing the assassination of Kennedy. Martino and Nathaniel Weyl both claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald had been in Cuba in 1963 and had been recruited by Cuban intelligence to kill Kennedy. Martino told his friend, Fred Claasen, that he was not telling the truth about the Cubans being behind the assassination of Kennedy. He admitted that he had been involved in the conspiracy by acting as a courier delivering money. He also told the same story to his wife Florence Martino. Shortly before his death in 1975 Martino confessed to a Miami Newsday reporter, John Cummings, that he had been guilty of spreading false stories implicating Lee Harvey Oswald in the assassination. He claimed that two of the gunmen were Cuban exiles. It is believed the two men were Herminio Diaz Garcia and Virgilio Gonzalez. Cummings added: "He told me he'd been part of the assassination of Kennedy. He wasn't in Dallas pulling a trigger, but he was involved. He implied that his role was delivering money, facilitating things.... He asked me not to write it while he was alive." Fred Claasen also told the House Select Committee on Assassinations what he knew about Martino's involvement in the case. Florence Martino at first refused to corroborate the story. However, in 1994 she told Anthony Summers that her husband said to her on the morning of 22nd November, 1963: "Flo, they're going to kill him (Kennedy). They're going to kill him when he gets to Texas." From Larry Hancock’s book, Someone Would Have Talked (summarizing why he believes Martino's confession is valid: John Martino had pre-knowledge of the plan to kill John Kennedy in Texas. John Martino "talked" in a very believable and credible fashion. At first, he talked only to his immediate family, nervously, hesitantly, and excitedly. Shortly before his death, he talked with two long time friends - part confession and part simply recollection. He made no grand claims, downplayed his own role and limited his statements to things he would have personally come in contact with in playing the role he described with the Cuban exiles whose cause he was demonstrably devoted to at the time. His story is certainly consistent and totally in context with his documented activities and personal associations in 1963. Martino's personal involvement also helps us to estimate the start date and time frame for the plot. • Martino's method of relating his knowledge of the conspiracy is credible and consistent. • Martino does not exaggerate his position nor claim knowledge beyond his described role. • Martino's "switch" from his post-assassination public crusade to his private confession is significant and consistent with his overall remarks about his role. • Martino was demonstrably connected to the "anti-Castro" people he implicates. • Martino offers a unique insight into Oswald's role, associations and manipulation - one which can be investigated for corroboration. • Martino provides insight into tactical details in Dallas which can be investigated for corroboration, including the elements of advance personnel on the ground, a motorcade route known in advance and figuring in the tactical plan, Oswald as a patsy tied to the route, • Oswald framed as a Castro connected shooter and a planned meeting and extraction of Oswald from Dallas. John Martino provides a unique insight into a conspiracy by anti-Castro elements to kill President Kennedy in revenge for his perceived betrayal of the exile cause and to tie the President's murder to Fidel Castro and Cuba in a manner which would institute an American invasion of the island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Carroll Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 When Howard Hunt went to civil trial against Victor Marchetti -- and lost -- the whole sworn testimony of Hunt and his CIA cronies and family, that material is not a confession, but it is a courtroom loss of alibi. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Shanet: Please repost this on my seminar which dealt so specifically with the Hunt v. Liberty Lobby lawsuit. This is very relevant thereto. Thanks. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Carroll Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Martino told his friend, Fred Claasen, that he was not telling the truth about the Cubans being behind the assassination of Kennedy. He admitted that he had been involved in the conspiracy by acting as a courier delivering money. He also told the same story to his wife Florence Martino.Shortly before his death in 1975 Martino confessed to a Miami Newsday reporter, John Cummings, that he had been guilty of spreading false stories implicating Lee Harvey Oswald in the assassination. He claimed that two of the gunmen were Cuban exiles. It is believed the two men were Herminio Diaz Garcia and Virgilio Gonzalez. Florence Martino at first refused to corroborate the story. However, in 1994 she told Anthony Summers that her husband said to her on the morning of 22nd November, 1963: "Flo, they're going to kill him (Kennedy). They're going to kill him when he gets to Texas." From Larry Hancock’s book, Someone Would Have Talked (summarizing why he believes Martino's confession is valid: John Martino had pre-knowledge of the plan to kill John Kennedy in Texas. John Martino "talked" in a very believable and credible fashion. At first, he talked only to his immediate family, nervously, hesitantly, and excitedly. John Martino provides a unique insight into a conspiracy by anti-Castro elements to kill President Kennedy in revenge for his perceived betrayal of the exile cause and to tie the President's murder to Fidel Castro and Cuba in a manner which would institute an American invasion of the island. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim Gratz: While I've generally been mostly receptive to the anti-Castro invovlement, even if it was generated by governmental higher-ups. But having tried to be open-minded to your Trento-oriented arguments, along with the Cubela-Trafficante-Castro links, I have to consider that whoever thought they were representing a certain cause may have been manipulated by a completely different agenda. It is widely recognized that Castro had infiltrated the anti-Castro community, and we have yet to nail down that angle. Cubela as a double-agent is the best example of this kind of uncertainty, but what about Trafficante and his favorites among the operatives? In Martino's case, the length of time he spent in a Cuban prison bespeaks his not being a Castro agent. Although, even with that, there is always the possibility that someone might make a deal to extricate themselves from a terrible situation. As for evidence of pre-notice witnessed by family matters, I consider that to be reflective of the Ricky White type of evidentiary standard. So what am I saying? I guess it's that the more you know, the more you know you don't know. Tim Carroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 [While I've generally been mostly receptive to the anti-Castro invovlement, even if it was generated by governmental higher-ups. But having tried to be open-minded to your Trento-oriented arguments, along with the Cubela-Trafficante-Castro links, I have to consider that whoever thought they were representing a certain cause may have been manipulated by a completely different agenda. It is widely recognized that Castro had infiltrated the anti-Castro community, and we have yet to nail down that angle. Cubela as a double-agent is the best example of this kind of uncertainty, but what about Trafficante and his favorites among the operatives? In Martino's case, the length of time he spent in a Cuban prison bespeaks his not being a Castro agent. Although, even with that, there is always the possibility that someone might make a deal to extricate themselves from a terrible situation. As for evidence of pre-notice witnessed by family matters, I consider that to be reflective of the Ricky White type of evidentiary standard. So what am I saying? I guess it's that the more you know, the more you know you don't know. Tim Carroll <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, a perceptive comment. This passage from the Final Report of the HSCA merits posting: The Warren Commission did not, of course, ignore Oswald's ties to anti-Castroites. From the evidence that was available in 1964, two Warren Commission staff attorneys, W. David Slawson and William Coleman, went so far as to speculate that Oswald, despite his public posture as a Castro sympathizer, might actually have been an agent of anti-Castro exiles.(3) Indeed, pressing for further investigation of the possibility, they wrote a memorandum which read in part: The evidence here could lead to an anti-Castro involvement in the assassination on some sort of basis as this: Oswald could have become known to the Cubans as being strongly pro-Castro. He made no secret of his sympathies, so the anti-Castro Cubans must have realized that law enforcement authorities were also aware of Oswald's feelings and that, therefore, if he got into trouble, the public would also learn of them ...Second, someone in the anti-Castro organization might have been keen enough to sense that Oswald had a penchant for violence ...On these facts, it is possible that some sort of deception was used to encourage Oswald to kill the President when he came to Dallas ...The motive of this would, of course, be the expectation that after the President was killed, Oswald would be caught or at least his identity ascertained, the law enforcement authorities and the public would blame the assassination on the Castro government, and a call for its forceful overthrow would be irresistible.... * * * * * * * * * * This ties into your comment that "whoever thought they were representing a certain cause may have been manipulated by [persons having] a totally different agenda." LHO might have killed JFK thinking he was doing it for Castro when those who were assisting him were in fact anti-Castro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Robert Morrow claimed he bought and delivered to David Ferrie 3 Mannlicher-Carcano rifles for the assassination (not knowing that's what they were for till after the fact, at which time Tracy Barnes told him not to worry, he was "clean as a whistle"); Morrow also claimed he delivered radios for the job to Eladio del Valle. (First Hand Knowledge) Robert Easterling, a diagnosed psychotic, confessed to involvement in the assassination, with a story containing verified elements as well absurdities (chapter 12 of Henry Hurt's Reasonable Doubt). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 Robert Morrow claimed he bought and delivered to David Ferrie 3 Mannlicher-Carcano rifles for the assassination (not knowing that's what they were for till after the fact, at which time Tracy Barnes told him not to worry, he was "clean as a whistle"); Morrow also claimed he delivered radios for the job to Eladio del Valle. (First Hand Knowledge)Robert Easterling, a diagnosed psychotic, confessed to involvement in the assassination, with a story containing verified elements as well absurdities (chapter 12 of Henry Hurt's Reasonable Doubt). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks, you are right. Both of these should count as "confessions" of some sort. But do you have opinions re the truth of the statements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Simkin Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Robert Morrow claimed he bought and delivered to David Ferrie 3 Mannlicher-Carcano rifles for the assassination (not knowing that's what they were for till after the fact, at which time Tracy Barnes told him not to worry, he was "clean as a whistle"); Morrow also claimed he delivered radios for the job to Eladio del Valle. (First Hand Knowledge)Robert Easterling, a diagnosed psychotic, confessed to involvement in the assassination, with a story containing verified elements as well absurdities (chapter 12 of Henry Hurt's Reasonable Doubt). You will find more information about these two confessions here: Robert Morrow: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorrow.htm Robert Easterling: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKeasterling.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Tim, I don't recall enough about Easterling's story to say more about it at present, except that it was certainly not true in its entirety. One thing that lends credence to Morrow's story is that he said he bought and delivered 7.35mm MCs, not 6.5mm like Oswald's. I found the explanation for this (Morrow never explains it) in Twyman's Bloody Treason (p. 618): the manufacturer had rebarreled the 7.35mm model with a 6.5mm barrel because there was a plentiful supply of 6.5mm ammunition. But how many people would know this? It would seem that if Morrow were to make up a story about buying MCs for the assassination, he would have simply said they were 6.5mm, everyone knowing that Oswald's rifle was 6.5mm. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 John, It looks like our posts crossed in transit. I'll have to check out your links. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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