EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Jim Hargrove]

Here are 5 examples showing evidence for two Oswalds over an extended period of time, all prior to the six week or so period Sylvia Meagher discussed in her analysis of two Oswalds.  Can anyone debunk this evidence RIGHT HERE?  Please don't take the usual path of just saying someone else--Greg Parker or Tracy Parnell, for example--has debunked it and provide a link or two.  If you think someone has debunked it, summarize the evidence RIGHT HERE, so it can be debated.

1.  The IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Lee HARVEY Oswald attending Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days during the fall 1953 semester, all the while Lee has good attendance for the very same period at PS 44 in New York City.

The New York City Board of Education record below shows that LEE Harvey Oswald attended Public School 44  starting 3/23/53 and extending through mid-January 1954.

In New Orleans, the 1953 Beauregard JHS record below shows that Lee HARVEY Oswald attended 89 days of school during the fall semester of 1953, at the same time LEE Oswald attended PS 44 in New York City.

Both the documents above were published in the Warren Volumes.

2.  The refusal of the Social Security Administration to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

------------------

For all the evidence on this, click here.

3. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: my favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.

HARVEY Oswald Departed for Taiwan Aboard the USS Skagit (AKA 105) on Sept. 14, 1958. Note "AKA 105" Under "Record of Events" near top left of this document:

The Unit Diary below shows that HARVEY Oswald was in Ping Tung, Taiwan, on Oct. 6, 1958.

Here’s a 1953 image of the ship Harvey Oswald took .  Note the “K.A. 105” lettering by the bow.

 

During this very same time Harvey was aboard the USS Skagit and stationed in Taiwan, LEE  Oswald was being treated for V.D in Atsugi, Japan.  From September 14 through October 6 HARVEY Oswald was in Taiwan. At the same time, from September 16 through October 6, LEE Oswald was in Japan. Medical records for NAS Navy 3835 (Naval Hospital), located in Atsugi, Japan, show numerous medical entries for LEE Oswald recorded on Sept 16, 20, 22, 23, 29, and Oct 6.. HARVEY Oswald's assignment in Taiwan, while LEE Oswald made numerous visits to the Naval Hospital in Japan, are an obvious "smoking gun."

4.  While Harvey Oswald was in Russia, Lee Oswald was working in Florida and Louisiana with anti-Castro Cubans and their handlers.  Perfect examples are the HSCA testimony of Marita Lorenz and the infamous Bolton Ford visit.

-----------------

For much more on this, see an article I wrote on my website:

The Bolton Ford Incident

5.  The impossible answer(s) to the simple questions: Could “Lee Harvey Oswald” drive a car? Did he have a Texas drivers license?

 

OFFICE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY

STATE OF LOUISIANA

PARISH OF ORLEANS

S T A T E M E N T
 

DATE:               February 14, 1968
      
STATEMENT OF:       ALETHA FRAIR
      
RESIDING AT:        8001 Benson
                    New Orleans, LA
                    Phone - 242-2126

My name is ALETHA FRAIR (MRS. JOHN FRAIR). I live at:

8001 Benson
New Orleans, La.
Phone - 242-2126

I worked for the Department of Public Safety in Austin, Texas from the early part of October 1963, through the early part of December 1963. While I was employed at the Department of Public Safety I worked in the License Records Department. This Dept. Was responsible for the IBM computer records of all driver's licenses in the state of Texas.

My husband, JOHN, was working for the United Press International during November of 1963 and on November 22, 1963 he was in Uvalde, Texas, covering the birthday of ex-Vice President JOHN NANCE GARNER.

I did not go to work on the 22 of November, 1963, but the following event occured (sic) the week after the assassination of President KENNEDY.

During the week following the murder of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, on either Wednesday the 27th, or Thursday the 28th of November, 1963 the Texas driver's license issued to LEE HARVEY OSWALD came into my division.

The record (IBM card) on OSWALD was pulled from the files. Several other employees (5 or 6) of the Department saw the driver's license which was dirty and worn as though it had been carried in a billfold. The license was the talk of the office that day since everyone knew who OSWALD was, and the reason his driver's license records were being pulled from the active file was the fact that he had been killed.

In October of 1966 my husband and I moved to New Orleans and in June of 1967 my husband went to work for WWL-TV, Channel 4.

I, ALETHA FRAIR, hereby affirm that all of the above statement is true to the best of my knowledge.

Signed February 14, 1968.

(Signature of Aletha Frair)

(Signature of witness Gary Sanders)
(Signature of witness Jody Duek)

 

For much more on this, see:

The Man Who Could--and Couldn't--Drive

 

[Karl Hilliard]

 

Quote

 

Ruth Paine told the Warren Commission that as late as the weekend before the assassination of JFK, Oswald had failed to obtain a learner's permit so that he could eventually acquire a valid Texas driver's license.

Mr. JENNER. You did talk with him on the telephone?

Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. I am certain that I talked with him, that he was surprised that he didn't need a car. I had to tell him that he didn't need  a car to take with him to take his test.

Mr. JENNER. Take his initial test?

Mrs. PAINE. Take his test, and suggested that he go from Dallas himself to take this test. Then he called us Saturday afternoon of the 16th to say he had been and tried to get his driver's permit but that he had arrived before closing time but still to late to get in because there was a long line ahead of him, the place having been closed both the previous Saturday for election day and the following Monday, the 11th, Veterans Day. There were a lot of people who wanted to get permits and he was advised that it wouldn't pay him to wait in line. He didn't have time to be tested.

 

The above is from the H&L link..

Back then when I [or anyone else I knew] was learning to drive...one would first obtain a learner's permit by taking a written test demonstrating they knew and understood the rules of the road. This was required to sit behind the wheel and operate a vehicle only with a licensed person along side until a state officer would accompany the student for their driving operator's test. Is it any different now? I don't think so.

[Jim Hargrove]

Karl,

That’s certainly the way I remember it.

On my website, the page entitled The Man Who Could—and Couldn’t—Drive also quotes extensively from the testimony of barber and Irving City Council member Cliff Shasteen.  He testified that “Oswald” had his hair cut six or seven times in his barber shop near Dallas, three or four times by Mr. Shasteen himself.

During most of this period, Classic Oswald® was in New Orleans, not getting regular haircuts near Dallas.  What’s more, Mr. Shasteen testified that this Oswald drove a car that sounds like Ruth Paine’s.

Mr. JENNER. You have a distinct recollection that on occasions when this man came into your shop for a haircut, he drove an automobile up to your shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. He drove that there 1955, I think it's a 1955, I'm sure it's a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon. It's either blue and white or green and white it's two-toned--I know that. Now, why I say--why I take it for granted that Mrs. Paine was with him when he come to the grocery store--I do remember he wasn't driving when they would come to the grocery store, there would be a lady driving and I'm assuming that that was Mrs. Paine, because like I say, I have been--I have never been close enough to her and knew it, to speak to her, but she trades at the service station where I do and I saw her in there and I never did pay any attention to her and I saw her passing, met her in the road in the car and those things. (WC X, 317)

Thanks for responding to this post.  In all honesty, I was hoping to lure Jeremy Bojczuk here to debate some of the issues I’ve listed above.  I’m still hoping he’s just working on some lengthy post about the mastoidectomy--his usual method to avoid the other issues--and will soon appear here.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 In all honesty, I was hoping to lure Jeremy Bojczuk here to debate some of the issues I’ve listed above.

Perhaps Jeremy will want to respond and he does a good job of making the case against H&L. But seriously, all of these issues have been debated here ad nauseum. Alternate explanations have been provided for the school records, LHO's time in the far east and so on. So, further debate is pointless-those that want to believe H&L will. I would rather see a debate on WHY they believe it-that would be more interesting to me.

[Jim Hargrove]

But what are those “alternate explanations,” Tracy?  You always point to someplace else, but you never debate the specifics here.  This isn’t rocket science.  It doesn’t require terribly lengthy explanations.

Why not discuss the details here?  Why do you always just point to Greg Parker's site or your blog and claim it is all "debunked" over there?  This is the JFK ASSASSINATION DEBATE forum.  Why not try debating the facts instead of just pointing elsewhere?  

[Sandy Larsen]

55 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

But seriously, all of these issues have been debated here ad nauseum.

 

In all the years since I've been a forum member, I haven't seen any of these things being debated. With only a few exceptions, I've seen only claims that these things have been debunked and links to other websites. Numerous times I've asked the person posting the links to explain directly in Education Forum thread how the claim was debunked...  a brief explanation. I've seen anti-H&L forum member high-five the authors of the materials linked to and I've asked these members to explain how the supposed debunking went. My requests went largely ignored.

I asked for explanations because I often followed the links but could not see myself that the H&L claims had been debunked. I was amazed by all the high-fiving going on at Greg Parker's site among his followers even at the most ridiculous of his alternate explanations. I will never forgot how he tried to explain away the fact that one of Oswald's Marine Corps dental records shows he had a failed false tooth. (When in fact the Oswald we all know never had a false teeth.)  I was embarrassed for Greg for his silly explanation and wondered why he hadn't used the standard fallback alternate explanation, that it was just another clerical error.

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

In all the years since I've been a forum member, I haven't seen any of these things being debated.

First, I understand that you have had some health problems Sandy and you are now doing better-that is great news and I wish you all the best.

I do disagree with your assessment though. The school records and the Japan thing were debated extensively here and an alternate explanation offered-both through links and direct posting. You guys chose to disagree with our explanations-and that is your right. Anyone can search here and find the old threads and decide for themselves. Why Jim wants to rehash the same old debate is not clear. 

[David Josephs]

Ok Tracy - why would the US Marines offer the image on the right... when in the real world the man we know as Oswald is on the left?

Unless the man on the right is a distance from the size chart (again - only reason to do that would be to distort the man's size) or the image was pasted onto a size chart
the size of the man on the right is not accurate - not "true life size" but much larger than life.

If in reality, 5'9" on the left is 5'11", the distortion on the right is even worse....

The man on the right, entering the marines is Lee...  Harvey there on the left from New Orleans....
The scale of inches is the same across both images...

 

[Sandy Larsen]

50 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

First, I understand that you have had some health problems Sandy and you are now doing better-that is great news and I wish you all the best.

I do disagree with your assessment though. The school records and the Japan thing were debated extensively here and an alternate explanation offered-both through links and direct posting. You guys chose to disagree with our explanations-and that is your right. Anyone can search here and find the old threads and decide for themselves. Why Jim wants to rehash the same old debate is not clear. 

 

You bring up a good point Tracy and that is that I haven't followed the forum much over the last year (more specifically since May 2018) due to health issues. And so I could have missed some H&L debate during that period and wouldn't know if you guys (or Jim) had made good points.

So if you're talking about debate taking place during that time period, I'd like to know what new points you've made. I'd appreciate it if you could explain briefly and let me know how to find the appropriate thread(s). But if it wasn't during that time period, then I emphatically disagree with you.

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

53 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

You bring up a good point Tracy and that is that I haven't followed the forum much over the last year (more specifically since May 2018) due to health issues. And so I could have missed some H&L debate during that period and wouldn't know if you guys (or Jim) had made good points.

So if you're talking about debate taking place during that time period, I'd like to know what new points you've made. I'd appreciate it if you could explain briefly and let me know how to find the appropriate thread(s). But if it wasn't during that time period, then I emphatically disagree with you.

 

No, nothing new Sandy. 

[Jim Hargrove]

Will any H&L critic begin a substantive debate by summarizing right here on this board counter evidence to the points raised above?

ANYONE?

[David Josephs]

Jim,

If Oswald attended BJHS in the Fall of 1953 for the 1953-54 school year,  how does he get off only taking 2 classes?  Cause he gets there with only 2-3 weeks left in the semester.

Can we please remember that this too is an FBI bait-n-switch?  So while I disagree with the conclusion that is NOT TO SAY there isn't something very wrong with these documents... just not what you and John are concluding...

A... Biggest problem is there are not 125 1/2 days in the semester in NYC when he starts on March 23, 1953.   With 20-21 days of school per month... April, May June is 60-70 days of school at the most.... then summer, then he starts on Sept 14, 1954....  

again, he did not go to summer school and they completely forget about the days in April/May 1954 spent at Youth House... no School administrator in their right mind would have put 109 3/2 days attendance from March 23 till the end of June.

B...If you have access to the BJHS grade cards you'll see that ninth grade has a few problems... grades don't match and it only shows 5 total absences (8 on one card)...  also notice they do not all have a homeroom number...

With regards to Myra, the only thing I can figure is that she is talking about the Spring semester and her homeroom, not fall....  as I read the different passages on Myra I see she NEVER SAYS SEPTEMBER...  The part time student in the FALL semester did not get a homeroom... but in the Spring he was now full-time...   obviously LEE attended BJHS as well....  this would be Lee's grade card if it is authentic, which based on the grade and attendance discrepancies, is not likely.

One interesting question then, is where was Harvey after North Dakota.... 2220 Thomas?  

 

 

 

On 9/22/2019 at 6:04 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

1.  The IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Lee HARVEY Oswald attending Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days during the fall 1953 semester, all the while Lee has good attendance for the very same period at PS 44 in New York City.

The New York City Board of Education record below shows that LEE Harvey Oswald attended Public School 44  starting 3/23/53 and extending through mid-January 1954.

In New Orleans, the 1953 Beauregard JHS record below shows that Lee HARVEY Oswald attended 89 days of school during the fall semester of 1953, at the same time LEE Oswald attended PS 44 in New York City.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Hi, David,

Let’s go through the conflicting school records in more detail, starting with the PS44 records from New York City....

In 1953, Marguerite and LEE were living in a basement apartment at 1455 Sheridan while LEE was attending PS 44 in New York City. After the assassination SAC John Malone, the FBI agent in charge of the New York Office, inspected Oswald's original court file in the presence of Judge Florence Kelley. Malone took notes and sent a report to FBI Director Hoover the following day. Malone wrote, "Oswald's attendance record at PS #44 from 3/23/53 to 1/12/54 was 171 and 11 half-days present and 18 and 11 half days absent. If LEE Oswald's 182 days of attendance (171 full days, 11 1/2 days) and 18 absences are plotted on 1953 and 1954 calendars it is easy to see that LEE Oswald attended PS 44 full time during the entire 1953 school year.

Now let’s see how the PS 44 and Beauregard records conflict with each other.

I’m re-posting below the Beauregard cumulative record for LHO and below that two pages from an FBI report analyzing it.  Remember that the PS44 records clearly indicated that LHO attended more than 62 school days (and was absent three and a fraction days) for the semester beginning 9/14/53 at the NYC school.

Page 10 of the FBI report summarizes the attendance data in the “Absent,” “Tardy,” “Left” and “Re-Ad” columns, which are explained, according to the FBI agents, starting at the bottom of page 10 and continuing to page 11 by William Head, assistant principal at Warren Easton High School, who received the Beauregard records for incoming students.

At the bottom of page 10, the FBI indicates he said that the “Re ad” column stood for “Re Admitted” and “would represent a total listing of the school days for a given school year.”  But later in the very same paragraph, now at the top of page 11, the report indicates that Head said a school year regularly consisted of 180 days and that “school days in any given year must not fall below 170” and that “therefore the numbers listed opposite this abbreviation indicated the number of school days that Oswald attended for a given school year.”

So which is it?  Does the “Re-Ad” column represent the number of school days in a school semester or year, or the number of days a student actually attended during that period?

The answer is right before us in the documents shown above.    In the actual Beauregard cumulative record for LHO (top document above), look at the very last entry on the far right under the “Re-Ad” column.  It shows a total of “168” days for the 1954-55 school year. Head indicated that Louisiana law dictated a minimum of 170 school days in a school year, and so if we’re to believe that every student report card at Beauregard for the 1954-55 school year was evidence that Louisiana law was being broken.  On the other hand, using my interpretation (that the “168” indicated the actual days LHO attended school) we can make perfect sense of these numbers.  Adding Oswald’s 168 days of attendance and his 12 absences comes out to exactly 180 days, just what Head said comprised a typical Beauregard school year!

The “Re Ad” column clearly indicates the number of days a student actually attended school.  So let’s look at the first semester of the 1953-54 school year at Beauregard.  It indicates that Oswald attended 89 days and was absent once, for a total of 90 school days.

For the 1953 fall semester at PS 44 in New York, Oswald attended 62 and a fraction days and was absent three and a fraction days for a total of 66 school days accounted for.  Add those 66 days to the 90 days from Beauregard and you get at total of 156 days, equivalent to nearly an entire school year!  As you pointed out above, it is obvious that Harvey Oswald was a part-time student for this semester at Beauregard.  I believe this was carefully planned to gradually re-introduce him to New Orleans and its public school system.  NYC obviously had been a real problem, not for Lee, but for Harvey.  His truancy from school and his entanglement in NYC courts threatened to expose the Oswald Project.

[Jim Hargrove]

I'd just like to point out to anyone bothering to follow all this that for the very next school year there is also obvious evidence of two Oswalds.  

During this school semester, LEE Oswald was attending Beauregard JHS in New Orleans and HARVEY Oswald was at W.C. Stripling junior high in Fort Worth, Texas.  Since the Warren Commission published the Beauregard records indicating “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended classes at Beauregard for the full fall semester of 1954, evidence that he also attended Stripling school at the same time would be a serious problem.  (Just as the Beauregard and NYC records, both published by the WC, are a serious problem now.)

So, what evidence is there that “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended Stripling School in Fort Worth?  H&L critics refuse to believe ANY of the following:

Stripling assistant principal Frank Kudlaty in 1963 met FBI agent at the school and gave them “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” Stripling records.  His YouTube interview is here.

On two separate occasions,  Robert Oswald told a Fort Worth newspaper that his brother attended Stripling.  See one of the articles here.

Robert also testified to the Warren Commission that his “brother” attended Stripling.

Harvey Oswald’s classmate Fran Schubert said she attended Stripling with Oswald and watched him walk home from Stripling to his house at 2220 Thomas Place.  See her YouTube interview with John here.

In the 1990s, Stripling School principal Ricardo Galindo told John that it was “common knowledge” that “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended Stripling.

John also spoke to local student Bobby Pitts, who remembered that Oswald attended Stripling with his younger brother and that he (Bobby) remembered seeing (Harvey) Oswald standing on the porch at 2220 Thomas Place, directly across the street from Stripling.  John also spoke with former Stripling student Doug Gann, who attended ninth grade at Stripling with Harvey and remembered that he live “across the street from the basketball courts and one or two houses to the left,” which exactly describes 2220 Thomas Place, where “Marguerite Oswald” lived at the time of the assassination of JFK. 

John made audio recordings of the Stripling people mentioned above, and we'll be putting together something about them next summer.  In the meantime....

A Forth Worth Star-Telegram article from November 2017 would indicate that Oswald’s “teachers and classmates remember him at Stripling, though there is no official record.”  Read the article here.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[David Josephs]

25 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

So which is it?  Does the “Re-Ad” column represent the number of school days in a school semester or year, or the number of days a student actually attended during that period?

Is this document authentic or an FBI creation to represent Oswald entering BJHS on 1-12-54, attending the end of 2 of 5 or 6 classes and then starting the Spring 53-54 semester in 8th grade.

 

25 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Malone wrote, "Oswald's attendance record at PS #44 from 3/23/53 to 1/12/54 was 171 and 11 half-days present and 18 and 11 half days absent. If LEE Oswald's 182 days of attendance (171 full days, 11 1/2 days) and 18 absences are plotted on 1953 and 1954 calendars it is easy to see that LEE Oswald attended PS 44 full time during the entire 1953 school year.

171 + 18 = 189 + 11 = 200 days of school TOTAL from 3/23/53 until 1/12/54....

Really?

There are 90 days in a semester - approximately - 180 in a school year

March to January includes 90 days of SUMMER... NO SCHOOL

If it's 180 school days from Sept "year 1" to Sept "year 2" (or any month from one year to the next)
how can it be 200 days for LESS THAN A FULL YEAR (March to Jan) and including summer (90 days fewer of school)? 
At most  you have 1.5 semesters or about 130 days of school, TOTAL....  (edit: actually less with Youth House - more like 110 but the FBI did not account for that in these docs offered as evidence)

25 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

.

The 109 3/2 and 15 3/2 in NYC school records for 7-8 grade tries to account for all these days with no regard for ACTUAL SCHOOL DAYS....

Let's please remember these documents are FBI PROPS...  The Evidence IS the Conspiracy...

Peace
DJ

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by David Josephs