EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Kowalski]

As I mentioned in an earlier post I had spoken to Tina Tippit-Brown about the called she received in 1963 about LHO and her call to the FBI. She told me that she had made notes about the call but she could not access them as she was settling her late husband's estate. Called her today but she did not answer. Spoke to someone else who I believe is her granddaughter. She told me that this is a bad time for their family and that she would give my message to Tina asking her to call me back.

[John Butler]

15 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

As I mentioned in an earlier post I had spoken to Tina Tippit-Brown about the called she received in 1963 about LHO and her call to the FBI. She told me that she had made notes about the call but she could not access them as she was settling her late husband's estate. Called her today but she did not answer. Spoke to someone else who I believe is her granddaughter. She told me that this is a bad time for their family and that she would give my message to Tina asking her to call me back.

Thanks John K,

Keep up the good work.  Do what you can.  This is an important area of research.  The key to the Oswald Project is in the Tippet's phone call.  Someone (my favorite candidate is Elizabeth Bentley) wants this connection to New York communists known.  Someone wanted Lee Harvey Oswald connected to the Gardos family and Hungarians. 

[John Kowalski]

Thanks John B.

[Richard Booth]

I want to preface this by saying my comments to follow are within the realm of speculation:

Has anyone considered the idea that Harvey and Lee were fraternal twins who were separated at birth?  I have often thought about the fact that if Harvey had been some kind of European refugee child he would have spoken English with an accent. The Harvey in H&L did not have any kind of foreign accent.

Lee raised by his family, with Harvey becoming property of the U.S. government and living with a caretaker. He would be taught English and Russian in preparation for tasks he would later carry out as a young adult. 

At the time of their birth, 1939, the OSS and CIA did not exist. However, the Office of Naval Intelligence did exist and was conducting counterintelligence operations. In 1939, FDR granted ONI some kind of authority concerning matters of domestic security. 

Within this framework we have the project starting under ONI, and transferred to the OSS-->CIA during WW2, or at the very least CIA taking on some kind of 'caretaker' or 'overseer' role for the project. ONI would sitll play some kind of role, insofar as being involved in the two Oswalds' tenures under one identity in the USMC and being involved in some way in the false defection. 

In this framework the project starts at ONI and later is transferred to the CIA, or there is some kind of joint thing occurring here.

Within this framework the general goal of the project is about the same as described in H&L: the project is designed to raise a child as property of the U.S. government (how cynical is that), where the child would be provided with an education, a caretaker, some semblance of family, and he would share his identity with a real citizen. The child who was "property" of CIA would be taught Russian and one of the project's goals would be to utilize him as a young adult in operations directed at Soviets or domestic communists. 

The Oswalds in the USMC:

Another thing that I think about in H&L is how Harvey (and Lee) both had such irregular USMC careers.

We have Harvey going off to training classes with Lee attending entirely different training classes, as John documents from the Marine Corps unit diaries and other records. We have times when Harvey is out of USMC entirely and he's working full-time as a civilian while Lee is serving at Atsugi. Then Harvey is inserted back into the Marines. In order to facilitate this completely irregular service record where you have two Marines serving under the same identity it would make sense for this project to be coordinated by CIA along with ONI. No matter which way you cut it, you have to have some kind of collaboration between the Oswald project's handlers and the Marines in order to have made this whole thing work, to have allowed for these two to just enter and exit the Marines at-will, like they did for training and like they did when Lee was stationed at one base and Harvey at another. So there had to be some kind of liaison or connection between Oswald project's owners and the Marines -- and ONI would fit perfect right there. Then I also think to interesting ONI connections: Ekdahl's divorce lawyer, Korth, was ONI. John Edward Pic worked in some fashion with ONI. Robert Oswald was USMC -- and you'll find some other interesting possible ONI connections in this piece:

https://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com/2016/08/oswald-fred-korth-and-office-of-naval.html

The overall thesis presented in Harvey and Lee, which I find to be really fascinating, just works better if you have twins and it's something I have considered before. Of course, the problem there is the program would have to originate in 1939 and that leaves really only one possible agency ... which is why I speculate here about ONI. 

Within this scenario, it turns out that the two children are not identical twins but fraternal twins which explains why they look slightly different. However, by the time that becomes obvious (2-3 years old) it's too late--the program has been going for a couple years, deals have already been made with family, things put into place... So they work with what they've got.

It's just something that I've thought about from time to time: what if these two were fraternal twins. Imagine being Allen Dulles and you have the opportunity to take over, manage, and plan this kind of program: he would have done it. And for him (or whomever ran the Oswald Project) to have been successful they would have necessarily needed a way to have some level of control over Oswald's role in the USMC, whether that be when Harvey was pulled out of the service entirely while Lee was stationed, or whether it be when you are arranging to have Lee stationed in one place (El Toro) and Harvey in another (Santa Ana). So this again brings me  back to this idea of ONI serving some kind of role in the program and possibly having been the originator of the program in 1939.

All speculation of course, but I think some of these ideas should be explored whether the thesis I propose is likely or note, specifically whether or not we have ONI connections and how exactly the Oswald project would have pulled off all these switches and scheduling nightmares that came about during H&L's highly irregular USMC service.

I've been following H&L for a very long time, listen to John every time he's on BOR, have read the book a few times and read threads on this forum and others from time to time. I especially like David Josephs' work on this subject and would like to look at the spreadsheet he's made on this.

I typically do not post on forums because I have absolutely no tolerance for debates or arguments and won't spend my time going back and forth with the detractors, to me it's a waste of time. I'd rather just do the work and the research and not waste any time at all with "debates" and the sort of internecine warfare and factions that exist within this community and all the drama that comes with it...

--Richard

Edited August 22, 2020 by Richard Booth

[Jim Hargrove]

Hello, Richard,

Thanks for the thoughtful post. Several people over the years have suggested to me the possibility that the two LHOs were twins, fraternal or otherwise. 

As you probably know, the page on HarveyandLee.net entitled “Who Was Harvey”  is pretty much limited to a brief overview of one of the LHO’s Russian language abilities and an examination of the anonymous phone call(s) to Mrs. Jack Tippit of Westport, Connecticut.  It’s not much to go on. I’m hoping that John Kowalski’s patient pursuit of Mrs. Tippit’s notes will eventually pay dividends.

A couple of things come to mind examining the twins possibility.  First is that there appears to be a substantial size difference between the two LHOs, especially during their earlier years.  Do you know if this kind of height and weight difference is common among fraternal twins?

There is no evidence I can cite that Marguerite gave birth to twins, although if the Oswald Project was indeed based on a pair of twin boys we can expect that information to have been suppressed possibly before and certainly after the assassination.  

There is also the possibility that one of the LHOs learned the Russian language at a very early age.  De Mohrenschildt, among others, noted how remarkably fluent Oswald was in Russian, despite the fact that he made grammatical errors.  This is just the sort of skills you would expect from a youngster who learned Russian early and then switched to English.  

You may also recall that Vladimir Petrov, a professor in the Slavic Language Department at Yale University, concluded that a letter written by LHO “was written by a Russian with an imperfect knowledge of English.”  Also, I’ve forgotten her name, but John A. has told me that a woman staying with the Marguerite Oswald who cared for the Russian-speaking LHO once said that, late at night, she heard Marguerite speaking on the phone in a foreign language, a language she did not recognize.

These points may argue against the twins analysis, but not doubt we should all be open to new evidence.  I can’t speak for John A. here, but I’ve always thought ONI involvement in the Oswald Project was possible.  It should be stressed, though, that intelligence oversight of the false defection program may not have been related at all to the conspiracy to assassinate JFK.

Welcome to the forum, and I hope you’ll continue to post here.

[Richard Booth]

10 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

A couple of things come to mind examining the twins possibility.  First is that there appears to be a substantial size difference between the two LHOs, especially during their earlier years.  Do you know if this kind of height and weight difference is common among fraternal twins?

 

The single biggest factor that would contribute to the height and weight difference is nourishment.  You see this in North Korea where the average height of people has been abnormally retarded by widespread famine.

Harvey is obviously smaller because of the neglect and abuse he suffered under Mysterious Marge who probably did not feed him properly. 

I went to school with a pair of fraternal twins and they actually looked very different: had I not been told they were fraternal twins I would not have even guessed they were related. 

I believe it possible you could have fraternal twins and one be several inches taller.

I also believe it possible I could be entirely wrong on this suggestion. It's just something I thought about.

One thing that often comes to mind is "why didn't Harvey have a foreign accent?" 

Another thing that surprises me relates to operational security: you can't expect a child to maintain OPSEC, so I can see a situation where little Harvey wants to impress the students around him and he starts speaking Russian. 

We have absolutely zero examples of Oswald speaking Russian and just have to rely on peoples' word for it. We have Demohrenschildt saying he spoke it very well and could converse about literature and read Russian. This speaks to a very high level ability.

I watched Ernst Titovets speaking at an AARC thing yesterday and he was asked at the end how well Oswald spoke Russian. His answer was incredibly confusing and bizarre. He said something to the effect of "I will speak to you now in the sort of accent he had." Then Ernst Titovets says, without changing his own accent in any way, "I can read Russian, speak Russian, and understand everything you say" or words to that effect. 

I wanted to see what Titovets would say compared to Ziger. The Zigers as we know said LHO absolutely never spoke Russian in Russia. It is unfortunate that Titovets did not elaborate more on this. I would like to see him address the subject of LHO's Russian ability in more detail. 

I am convinced that there were two people using the identity LHO and this is best exemplified by the year 1958 when Lee Oswald was in Japan and Harvey Oswald was in New Orleans. Still, there are many questions that spring forth on this where I am skeptical: why no accent, why didn't little Harvey ever speak Russian to people? How did Harvey learn Russian, was he raised in a household where English and Russian were taught to him as a child? I think he had to be.

[Richard Booth]

Another thing I want to talk about here that isn't particularly related to anything I wrote before:

We really need some Harvey and Lee video presentations. John's work on H&L website is impressive and his recent article "Marines and Soviet Union" would make a fantastic template for a video presentation that features on-screen photographs, documents, and other imagery that relates to the text.  The article is mostly related to the 1958-1959 time period and I think the title of the piece is a bit generic, I would have called it something like "Double Games, Deceptions, and Defectors: Lee Harvey Oswald in 1958-1959" ... anyhow ... there surely must be some people among our student group who are familiar with video editing applications and could put something together. Len Osanic did a fantastic job with 50 Reasons for 50 Years, and we have many many videos on YouTube from other content creators who are passionate about other subjects... We should see some collaborative effort on the H&L material I think, it's powerful... 

H&L would make a very good reference research base for a video series or podcast.

I can envision a 10-12 part series that is an hour to an hour and a half for each segment, with each segment covering a 1 or 2 year period. 

[Sandy Larsen]

 

My first wife was a South Korean orphan who was adopted and moved to the U.S. when she was about 7. I met her when she was 18 and she had absolutely no accent.

She was never inclined to show off her Korean speaking abilities. In fact she seemed to want to forget about her past. Not sure why. Maybe because being an orphan wasn't such a great life.

But regardless of that, I don't think a young person would even think of speaking their other language in order to impress others. I think it's more likely that they would fear ridicule and teasing from the other kids had they done so.

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Sandy Larsen

[Richard Booth]

5 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

My first wife was a South Korean orphan who was adopted and moved to the U.S. when she was about 7. I met her when she was 18 and she had absolutely no accent.

She was never inclined to show off her Korean speaking abilities. In fact she seemed to want to forget about her past. Not sure why. Maybe because being an orphan wasn't such a great life.

But regardless of that, I don't think a young person would even think of speaking their other language in order to impress others. I think it's more likely that they would fear ridicule and teasing from the other kids had they done so.

 

You raise good points. I know a person who was born in the Philippines and he speaks English with absolutely no accent at all. I was born and raised in Oklahoma and I have no accent. 

Regarding fear and ridicule, I think Harvey was the kind of person who wanted to stand out and be different than others. I can see him speaking Russian just to show he can do something others can't. Just to show he's better or somehow a world apart. I know that I was a loner in HS and if I could speak Russian I would have done it just to show people I could.

I suppose people all have differing motivations; as for Harvey Oswald, he clearly had no interest in being a conformist and based on what I have read from people who knew him he was very clearly a contrarian.

I did read from one Marines' testimony that he said he and the other Marines would try to get Harvey Oswald to speak Russian--this during the time Harvey Oswald was enlisted and serving in California and making a huge big show out of speaking Russian--playing Russian records, reading, calling himself Oswaldovitch. He clearly had no problem with it in the Marines, so what about when he was a kid? Well, young Harvey Oswald is constantly talking about Das Kapital and Russia--such as at William Wulf's house. He clearly had no interest in being a conformist and was obviously making provocative statements by speaking in support of Marxism and Communism. So this notion that he didn't speak Russian because of fear and an interest in conformity doesn't pan out in comparison to his other behaviors. 

I have seriously thought about this problem here, this issue of operational security with young Harvey Oswald and his Russian fluency. On the one hand he's making this big show about identifying with and supporting all things Russia/Communism, yet, he doesn't speak a word of Russian? It would make more sense if he did speak it given how much he talked about all the other Russian related things.

So, how do the people with the Oswald Project guarantee that Harvey Oswald does not blow his cover and speak Russian around Americans? They had to have thought about this possibility and surely would not leave it to "oh well he wouldn't want to be teased" -- that isn't enough. If I was in charge of the Oswald Project I would say "not good enough. We need to guarantee he does not speak Russian around others." How do you do that? I've seriously considered the notion that maybe young Harvey Oswald was subjected to some kind of post hypnotic treatment. It sounds a bit bizarre but it does work, and has been shown to work, and we know that in the early 50s this was seriously being studied by the CIA. What could guarantee that young Harvey Oswald doesn't speak Russian until the time is right? A post-hypnotic suggestion and behavior modification designed to instill in him a directive that he cannot speak Russian around people.

I realize this is all hypothetical but these are the things I think about when I reflect on the H&L thesis. I am convinced of the thesis based on the evidence from 1958/1959 alone, and then that causes me many questions... "Why didn't Harvey speak Russian around Americans more" is one of those questions...  

Other Questions: How do you guarantee Marge plays ball? How do you guarantee she doesn't ruin the whole operation? 

Another thing I think about: How did the Oswald Project staff guarantee that Mysterious Marge kept her damn mouth shut about the whole thing post 11/22? As soon as 11/22/63 happened, her gravy train was gone. Her job was merely to babysit Harvey Oswald and act like his mother, a job she did very poorly and here she is now on 11/22 and everything comes crashing to a halt. She was in a position to where, if she wanted to, she could have easily blackmailed the project's caretakers by saying "either you pay up, or I'm going to tell everyone there is something going on here."

She did do that: Mysterious Marge said more than one time that her son was a government agent. This can't have been pleasing to whomever we think ran this project, surely that would have caused alarm bells to go off.  

So how do we explain Mysterious Marge's behavior post assassination?

Speaking of Marge ... John Pic said this about her:

"That is the only thing—I don't really believe she really believes he is innocent. I think she is out to make money than if she has to say he is guilty. I think she is a phony in the whole deal."

She seems mentally unstable, unreliable, and a major threat to security for any kind of clandestine operation.

In fact, if I ran this thing I would insist that Mysterious Marge know as little as possible. I would want a situation whereby she actually thinks Harvey Oswald is her child. I would realize that this crazy woman could ruin the whole thing and if she knew any details about the operation she would try to use that information for financial gain or notoriety. 

So how do we fit Mysterious Marge into all this: did she continue to be paid post-assassination? How much did she know about the project? Did she really believe that Harvey Oswald was her child? 

[Jonathan Cohen]

18 minutes ago, Richard Booth said:

So how do we fit Mysterious Marge into all this: did she continue to be paid post-assassination? How much did she know about the project? Did she really believe that Harvey Oswald was her child? 

Were the two Marguerite Oswalds also twins separated at birth by the Office of Naval Intelligence?  

[Sandy Larsen]

34 minutes ago, Richard Booth said:

Regarding fear and ridicule, I think Harvey was the kind of person who wanted to stand out and be different than others. I can see him speaking Russian just to show he can do something others can't.

 

Well I suppose that could be the case, but only if Harvey was a masochist. He was, after all, beat up just for having a northern accent. Yeah, if he liked being beat up I can see him wanting to make his beatings worse by speaking a foreign language. Oh, and let's make it a language associated with communism!

Nah... I don't think so Richard.

As for his speaking Russian around his bunkmates, that's a whole different story. Young men mature fast in the military. (Heck, they do even just by reaching adulthood.) Do you think a guy who beat him up in junior high for having a Yankee (or any other) accent would do the same as an adult?

 

[Richard Booth]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well I suppose that could be the case, but only if Harvey was a masochist. He was, after all, beat up just for having a northern accent. Yeah, if he liked being beat up I can see him wanting to make his beatings worse by speaking a foreign language. Oh, and let's make it a language associated with communism!

Nah... I don't think so Richard.

As for his speaking Russian around his bunkmates, that's a whole different story. Young men mature fast in the military. (Heck, they do even just by reaching adulthood.) Do you think a guy who beat him up in junior high for having a Yankee (or any other) accent would do the same as an adult?

 

I'm still not buying it---if he's willing to espouse support for Marxism and Communism as a child that's going to bring the exact same sort of ridicule that speaking Russian is going to bring. It's just about the same kind of thing... It's no more or less alienating to speak Russian than it is to spend hours talking about Communism and getting yourself kicked out of someone's house for it. If anything, speaking Russian would have been equal to or about the same as showing off a copy of "Das Kapital" or saying "I'm a Communist."

Another thing that doesn't quite make much sense: based on the thesis in H&L, Oswald's proficiency in Russian was supposedly obscured or hidden from the Russians, where he is not speaking it when he's in Russia and he's hiding this proficiency. The entire theory behind H&L is that authorities take a person who speaks Russian and they dispatch this person as some sort of defector to gather intelligence while trying to ensure the Soviets don't know that the person is a spy. If that were the case, then why is he speaking Russian and taking a Russian test when he's in California? You would think that he would NOT be given a Russian test nor would he advertise his interest in the Russian language lest later on down the line Soviets find this out when they're using illegals or other assets to investigate the guy over here. That Russian test, and the speaking in Russian around bunkmates seems to me was rather careless if your goal is to conceal this person's fluency in the language. To the contrary, he seemed to be advertising his ability. 

If the whole purpose of having Harvey Oswald is so you have this person who secretly understands, speaks, reads and writes in Russian then you wouldn't be advertising it in ways that could be discovered if the KGB were to go and investigate. 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Richard Booth writes:

Quote

why is he speaking Russian and taking a Russian test when he's in California? You would think that he would NOT be given a Russian test nor would he advertise his interest in the Russian language lest later on down the line Soviets find this out ...

If the whole purpose of having Harvey Oswald is so you have this person who secretly understands, speaks, reads and writes in Russian then you wouldn't be advertising it in ways that could be discovered if the KGB were to go and investigate.

As Richard points out, the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense hasn't been thought out properly.

We have the real-life, historical Lee Harvey Oswald openly learning Russian, as several of his Marine buddies testified. We have him taking what appears to have been a fairly basic test in Russian and not doing particularly well in that test. We have him making frequent grammatical mistakes in Russian even after having spent two and a half years living among genuine native speakers of Russian.

Clearly, he was not a native speaker of Russian, contrary to 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine. Nor was he concerned about keeping his knowledge of Russian a secret, which also contradicts 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine.

Not only that, but the basic idea behind the 'Harvey and Lee' long-term doppelganger scheme is incoherent. The idea is that the doppelganger who defected must have been a native speaker of Russian, so that he could secretly understand what was being said around him. But you don't need to be a native speaker in order to understand what is being said around you. All you need is a reasonably good command of the language.

The whole purpose of the top-secret long-term doppelganger scheme was for a native speaker to do something a non-native speaker could have done. The scheme was unnecessary. There was simply no need to set up and maintain a scheme involving two Oswalds, two Marguerites, and all the other people who would have been necessary to keep the show on the road for a decade or more.

If US intelligence wanted a false defector who could understand Russian, they could easily have found one from among the 2.5 million US servicemen who were active in the year of Oswald's defection. Take an intelligent, motivated person with a knack for languages, provide whatever additional training was required, and give him a ticket to Helsinki.

The problem is:

- If the defector Oswald was not a native speaker of Russian, the 'Harvey and Lee' theory breaks down because the theory requires him to have been a native speaker.

- And if the defector Oswald was a native speaker of Russian, the 'Harvey and Lee' theory breaks down because the long-term doppelganger scheme was not necessary to fulfil its own stated purpose.

Worryingly, people have been peddling this theory for twenty years or more, and none of them appear to have actually examined the theory's basic premise.

[Jim Hargrove]

9 hours ago, Richard Booth said:

if he's willing to espouse support for Marxism and Communism as a child that's going to bring the exact same sort of ridicule that speaking Russian is going to bring. It's just about the same kind of thing... It's no more or less alienating to speak Russian than it is to spend hours talking about Communism and getting yourself kicked out of someone's house for it. If anything, speaking Russian would have been equal to or about the same as showing off a copy of "Das Kapital" or saying "I'm a Communist."

That's why the anonymous phone call to Mrs. Jack Tippit is fascinating.... if there's any truth to it a whole lot of weird stuff about Oswald is explained.  Read it again (I've added some boldface):

URGENT 11-30-63 7-37 PM EST MB
TO DIRECTOR, AND SACS DALLAS AND NEW YORK
FROM SAC, NEW HAVEN /100-18158/
NEW YORK VIA WASHINGTON
LEE HARVEY OSWALD, IS - R
ON NOV. THIRTY INSTANT, JACK D. TIPPIT, SELF EMPLOYED
CARTOONIST FOR NATIONAL MAGAZINES AND WIFE, ONE SIX FOUR
NEW TOWN TURNPIKE, WESTPORT, CONN., ADVISED AS FOLLOWS. AT
APPROXIMATELY ELEVEN THIRTY AM ON INSTANT DATE MRS. TIPPIT
RECEIVED A TELEPHONE CALL FROM UNKNOWN WOMAN WHO ASKED IF
MR. TIPPIT WAS A POLICEMAN AND IF HE WAS RELATED TO THE POLICE-
MAN TIPPIT WHO WAS SHOT IN DALLAS. MRS. TIPPIT REPLIED HER
HUSBAND WAS NOT A POLICEMAN, WAS DISTANTLY RELATED TO OFFICER
TIPPIT AND ASKED IDENTITY OF CALLER. ON ANOTHER EXTENSION
JACK TIPPIT LISTENED TO BALANCE OF PHONE CALL. THE WOMAN SAID
SHE COULD NOT GIVE HER NAME AS SHE WAS AFRAID OF BEING KILLED,
THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE
CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED AS SHE WAS IN FEAR OF HER
END PAGE ONE

PAGE TWO:

LIFE. THE WOMAN REQUESTED THAT NOTHING BE SAID TO THE PRESS
ABOUT A WOMAN CALLING AS THEY WOULD KNOW HER IDENTITY AND SHE
WOULD BE KILLED.
THE WOMAN SAID SHE KNEW OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE WHO
WERE HUNGARIANS AND COMMUNISTS. THE WOMAN CONTINUED THAT
OSWALD-S FATHER AND UNCLE HAD LIVED AT SEVENTY SEVENTH AND SECOND
AVENUE, YORKVILLE, NYC, THAT WHILE LIVING THERE BOTH WERE
UNEMPLOYED, GOT THEIR MONEY FROM COMMUNISTS AND SPENT ALL THERE
TIME IN COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES.
THE WOMAN THEN BEGAN SPEAKING INDISTINCTLY, DISJOINTEDLY,
AND NERVOUSLY. SHE STATED SHE HAD TWO NAMES TO GIVE AND
MENTIONED THE NAME EMILE KARDOS AND SAID SOMETHING ABOUT A
BROTHER IN LAW. WHEN MRS. TIPPIT TRIED TO FIND OUT WHOSE
BROTHER IN LAW THE WOMAN KEPT REPEATING THE WORD BROTHER IN LAW.
THE WOMAN STATED KARDOS IS HEAD OF THE COMMUNISTS AND THAT THIS
GROUP IN NEW YORK NOW HAS CHARTS AND MAPS. THE WOMAN SAID
SOMETHING ABOUT WEINSTOCK THE EDITOR OF QUOTE WOMAN-S WORLD
UNQUOTE BUT DID NOT GIVE FURTHER DETAILS.. THE WOMAN SAID THE
END PAGE TWO

PAGE THREE:

GROUP IN NEW YORK PLANS TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT, THAT OF
COURSE THEY WOULD DENY THIS BUT SHE KNEW IT TO BE TRUE.
SHE THEN HUNG UP ABRUPTLY. THE WOMAN NEVER GAVE ANY REASON
FOR HER CALL WHICH SOUNDED LOCAL. MRS. TIPPIT THOUGHT THE
WOMAN HAD AN AUSTRIAN OR GERMAN ACCENT WHILE MR. TIPPIT
BELIEVED IT WAS SPANISH. BOTH FELT THE WOMAN SOUNDED LIKE
A MATURE ADULT AND DID NOT HAVE A YOUTHFUL VOICE.
MR. TIPPIT EXPLAINED WOMAN MAY HAVE OBTAINED HIS IDENTITY
FROM AN ARTICLE ON PAGE ONE OF NORWALK, CONN. QUOTE HOUR
UNQUOTE FOR NOVEMBER TWENTYFIVE LAST, WHICH STATED THAT WE MAY
BE A DISTANT RELATIVE OF THE DALLAS POLICEMAN. TIPPIT SAID
ARTICLE RESULTED FROM TELEPHONE CALL FROM REPORTER WHO WAS
CHECKING ALL TIPPITS IN LOCAL TELEPHONE DIRECTORIES.
BUREAU REQUESTED TO COORDINATE ABOVE WITH ANY OTHER
INFORMATION TO DETERMINE IF PERTINENT AS NEW HAVEN HAS NO
KNOWLEDGE OF THE RESIDENCE AND ASSOCIATES OF OSWALD-S FATHER
AND UNCLE.

END AND ACK PLS
7-45 PM OK FBI WA LLD FOR RELAY
6-47 PM CST OK FBI DL FL
TU PLSDISC M
CC-MR_ROSEN

[John Kowalski]

On 8/22/2020 at 4:00 AM, Richard Booth said:

In this framework the project starts at ONI and later is transferred to the CIA, or there is some kind of joint thing occurring here.

Hi Robert:

Welcome to the forum.

ONI's possible connection to H&L is an interesting hypothesis.  Eckdahl enlisted in the US Navy reserve in 1917 and was stationed at the Experimental Station New London Connecticut. While there he worked on submarine detection. Being in the naval reserve and working on experimental naval equipment may have brought him into contact with Office of Naval Intelligence who would be interested in or may have sponsored this work.

In 1919 he departed for Shanghai in China. At that time it was an international settlement controlled by various countries.  Do not know for sure if he was involved in intelligence activities but he may have been recruited by the ONI because of his naval service and sent there. Another possibility is that he acted as a domestic contact. They could have asked him to make observations about what he saw in Shanghai and report back to them. This would be the same work Clay Shaw did for the CIA.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by John Kowalski