EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

It looks like Bojczuk is returning to his old name calling, hate filled habits. 

The correct phrase is de mortuis nil nisi bonum

And, the translation is:

Definition of de mortuis nil nisi bonum

: of the dead, (say) nothing but good

 

"W. Tracy Parnell   

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Posted 11 minutes ago

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Nil nisi bonum and all that, but Jack White was a 100% tin-foil hat loon. It is only fitting that he had a hand in inventing the 'Harvey and Lee' fantasy.

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

56 minutes ago, John Butler said:

It looks like Bojczuk is returning to his old name calling, hate filled habits. 

The correct phrase is de mortuis nil nisi bonum

And, the translation is:

Definition of de mortuis nil nisi bonum

: of the dead, (say) nothing but good

 

"W. Tracy Parnell   

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Posted 11 minutes ago

 

So, you're posting my photo and information because?

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Wrong again Jim. Most if not all of the arguments you list have been debunked right here at EF. We are not going to do your work for you-searches can be made to find them. And we are not going to put them in this thread because you demand it. One thing you pretend to not understand is that people create websites so they don't have to endlessly retype the same arguments over and over. You yourself have a website for just that purpose as your endless "data dumps" here demonstrate. I assume the purpose of this thread has been to get exposure for the H&L theory and to that extent we are playing right into your hands. But don't pretend that these things have not been discussed before-they have ad nauseum. And please don't say like you did one time (it was either you or Sandy) that the websites we link to don't exist because you can't see them.

Well, Mr. Parnell is consistent, if nothing else.  The answer, he says, is always somewhere else.  And then he scolds me for not doing my homework.  

This isn't rocket science.  If Mr. Parnell wishes to debunk any of the following facts, he could just do so in his own words right here. Or he could copy and paste here any of this "debunking" from somewhere else. It should be easy, but it obviously isn't.  Mr. Parnell has time to make many different posts in this thread each day. Surely he could choose just one of the points below and take the time to debunk it here. 

• For the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year,  one Oswald attended Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days while the other was enrolled in Public School 44 in New York City, where he was present for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total accounting of 78 days.
• For the next semester, one Oswald was at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while the other Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas.
• One Oswald lost a front tooth during a fight at Beauregard JHS in the fall of 1954, but the Oswald exhumed decades later obviously had all his front teeth intact.
• The Social Security Administration did not include ANY of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” teen-aged employment income in his “Lifetime Earnings Report” indicating in a cover letter it was including “Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps.”
• One Oswald departed for Taiwan aboard the USS Skagit on Sept. 14, 1958 and was stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan on Oct. 6, 1958, at the very same time the other Oswald was being treated for venereal disease at Atsugi, Japan, nearly 1500 miles away.
• One Oswald appeared at the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans while the other was in the Soviet Union.
• One Oswald had a driver’s license and was seen by many witnesses driving a car, and the other Oswald could not drive.
• On November 22, 1963, one Oswald left the Texas School Book Depository on a bus and then a taxi, and the other left in a Nash Rambler.

Why not just start with number 1 on the list above and explain how, during the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year, one Oswald attended Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days while the other was enrolled in Public School 44 in New York City, where he was present for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total accounting of 78 days.  How did that happen?  I know, the answer is somewhere else, and you're not telling!

With number 1 on the list above, at least, Greg Parker made an aborted effort to debunk it, so you might start with that, though, as you know, I completely destroyed his dumb argument.  But why not give it a shot and see how you fare?

Here's that pesky evidence again, which simply doesn't go away no matter how many times Mr. B insults me or Mr. Parnell pretends it's all explained someplace else.

C'mon, Mr. Parnell.  Man up and step up to the plate and take a swing!  Do some "debunking" right here so we all can see what you've got!  It will be fun for at least one of us!

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

So, you're posting my photo and information because?

Mr. Parnell,

Since you reposted what Bojzcuk said, I thought it would be ok.  However, If I have offended please forgive.

[Guest]

On 10/9/2019 at 7:43 AM, Jeffrey Reilley said:

So, you don’t believe that anyone impersonated him via phone call or any other means in Mexico City? That is one of the areas that really started to make me think something wasn’t right.

We would have to agree on a definition of "impersonation."  Someone who wasn't Oswald put "Lee Harvey Oswald, USSR, Dallas, Texas" on the visitor log of the obscure Atomic Energy Museum - is that impersonation?  I've put goofy names on such things without any sense that I was impersonating Donald Duck or whatever name I put.  (No other explanation of the Oswald name and especially the reference to "USSR" on the museum log makes any sense at all - and since almost all the visitors to the museum that week were from Texas and specifically the Dallas area, I have to assume this was indeed some sort of gag or inside joke.)

By "impersonating" I mean "pretending to be Lee Harvey Oswald for some substantive reason in furtherance of some sort of conspiracy."

Sure, someone with the CIA or another agency may have phoned the Cuban or Soviet embassy pretending to be Oswald in an effort to gain insights into what was going on.  That would not fit my definition of impersonation.

All the other supposed cases of impersonation - and specifically those that are the lifeblood of H&L, with which I'm very familiar - strike me as falling squarely within the two categories I described in my above post.  Most of them make utterly no sense even within the context of H&L.  Not that this ever bothers the H&L brigade.  They don't care whether it makes sense - they simply want to overwhelm you with supposed anomalies until you give up.

On 10/9/2019 at 7:56 AM, Jeffrey Reilley said:

They were  behind overthrows in Iran, Guatemala, Congo, Vietnam, and tried to in Cuba, and that’s just off the top of my head as I literally watch paint dry(most inefficient two days of my life). They did kill, or had killed leaders of nations. That is not make believe. That happened. Why am I willing to shrug my shoulders and accept what those same people say is truth when I know all too well killers kill, and they know it’s bad, so why just blindly believe? I do agree there is a sea of minutiae but I believe the truth is somewhere in there.

But, of course, all that is par for the course for any government with the capability to carry out such actions in what is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as being in the national interest.  All that is quite a different matter from assassinating the nation's own leader with gunfire during a parade at high noon in a major city - and exposing yourselves to the massive risks that would entail, especially when the leader is up for reelection in a year anyway and will be around one more term at most.

The line of thought you're describing is precisely the way Deep Politics conspiracy hucksters want you to think - i.e., the willingness to overthrow a foreign government, and by assassination if necessary, "equates" to a willingness to eliminate a U.S. President by assassination.  The same sort of dubious "logic" applies to the Mafia.  As I've said repeatedly, so many powerful persons and groups would have been happy to have JFK eliminated that it's child's play to weave superficially plausible conspiracy theories (H&L, alas, not even rising to the level of superficial plausibility).  The challenge is to assess the evidence without falling into this trap.

I'm not asking anyone to "blindly believe."  I certainly haven't - I was a gee-whiz conspiracy enthusiast and lapped up every new theory that came down the pike.  The "meditation" I'm talking about is to take any of the theories - H&L or Best Evidence being prime candidates - and assume it's all true.  Assume that every last claim Armstrong and Hargrove make, or that Lifton makes, is absolutely true.  Then step back, if you can, and ask yourself "How would that actually have worked?  What would that actually have looked like from step A to step Z?  What sort of incredible risks would that have entailed?  How many of those risks were completely unnecessary?  Why would sophisticated conspirators have done that?  DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL?"

If you have a firm grasp on Lee Harvey Oswald, the actual man and his actual life, the steps of the Lone Assassin explanation fall into place from A to Z like the gears of a well-oiled machine.  Sure, there is some problematical evidence, but none (of which I'm aware) that cannot reasonably be fitted into the Lone Assassin explanation without resorting to the absurdities that characterize most conspiracy theories.  So until something definitive to the contrary comes to light, I'm going with Ockham's Razor.  There is simply no reason to hypothesize an elaborate, convoluted conspiracy that defies logic and common sense.  Show me a clear and unequivocal photo of Prayer Man and I'll be back to square one - but "Oswald's junior high school records" and "Oswald's molars" are just silly arguments from silly people.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Mr. Parnell,

Since you reposted what Bojzcuk said, I thought it would be ok.  However, If I have offended please forgive.

No problem John.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Here's that pesky evidence again, which simply doesn't go away no matter how many times Mr. B insults me or Mr. Parnell pretends it's all explained someplace else.

And here's some "pesky" evidence that won't go away as well. The documents say "enrolled January, 1954." And a mountain of other evidence shows that is when Marguerite and LHO left NYC. Next thing you know, they turn up at her sister's house in New Orleans and LHO enrolls in school. No 2 Oswalds required.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

One Oswald departed for Taiwan aboard the USS Skagit on Sept. 14, 1958 and was stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan on Oct. 6, 1958, at the very same time the other Oswald was being treated for venereal disease at Atsugi, Japan, nearly 1500 miles away.

Here is a snippet from my chronology covering that period. Granted this doesn't explain some inconsistencies in the documents or the way they are being interpreted, but that has been covered by Greg Parker before:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2019/10/lho-far-east-chronology.html

Note that this is my own chronology and Greg Parker may or may not agree with all of it.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Regarding Jack White and Kudlaty, I see on Parker's website the information I was referring to before but forgot the details of. White first said that he had a fifty year friendship with Kudlaty. Obviously, such a relationship would call into question how the Kudlaty story of confiscated records came to light. We know it didn't come to light back in 1963 or anytime after until the Armstrong research came about.

Then there was a second story by White where he claimed he had not seen Kudlaty since college. In this version, they were mere acquaintances. The way it should work is that Armstrong should approach a witness and question them. But he (and apparently White) didn't do that. They told the perspective witness about their crazy theory (undoubtedly leaving out any of the evidence that debunked it) and tried to solicit support for it.

[Jim Hargrove]

That’s your evidence that Frank Kudlaty and Jack White conspired to concoct the whole FBI at Stripling story?  Are you still denying that Lee Harvey Oswald, any Lee Harvey Oswald, attended Stripling School?  I hate to repeat all those newspaper and eyewitness reports again, but I’ll do it if you don’t cop to this simple fact.

Now, allow me to demonstrate what real evidence looks like.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

And here's some "pesky" evidence that won't go away as well. The documents say "enrolled January, 1954." And a mountain of other evidence shows that is when Marguerite and LHO left NYC. Next thing you know, they turn up at her sister's house in New Orleans and LHO enrolls in school. No 2 Oswalds required.

Exactly, Tracy, or almost exactly.  The evidence we have suggests someone named “Lee Harvey Oswald” enrolled at Beauregard on January 13, 1964, either because he started first attending the school then or first became a full-time student on that date.  Mid-January is at or nearing the end of the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year.  How can a student who didn’t enroll until the end of the fall semester manage to attend for 89 days that semester?

The first document above shows that while one Oswald was still in NYC, the other attended Beauregard for 89 days for the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year (Report 1), 90 days for the spring semester (Report 2) for a total of 179 days (Report 3) that school year.

If you ask Google, “How many school days are in a school year,” you get this response:

 

Quote

 

180 days

 

While state requirements vary on the number of instructional days and hours in the year, the majority of states set the school year at 180 days (30 states).

 

 

Nothing could be more obvious than the fact that THROUGHOUT the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year, one Oswald was in NYC and the other was in New Orleans.  Thank you for finally responding here and not pointing somewhere else.

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Here is a snippet from my chronology covering that period. Granted this doesn't explain some inconsistencies in the documents or the way they are being interpreted, but that has been covered by Greg Parker before:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2019/10/lho-far-east-chronology.html

Note that this is my own chronology and Greg Parker may or may not agree with all of it.

Tracy,

Your timeline is not evidence and whether Greg Parker agrees with it is irrelevant. Here is the actual evidence we are debating:

HARVEY Oswald Departed for Taiwan Aboard the USS Skagit (AKA 105) on Sept. 14, 1958. Note "AKA 105" Under "Record of Events" near top left of this document:

The Unit Diary below shows that HARVEY Oswald was in Ping Tung, Taiwan, on Oct. 6, 1958.

Here’s a 1953 image of the ship Harvey Oswald took .  Note the “K.A. 105” lettering by the bow.

 

During this very same time Harvey was aboard the USS Skagit and stationed in Taiwan, LEE  Oswald was being treated for V.D in Atsugi, Japan.  From September 14 through October 6 HARVEY Oswald was in Taiwan. At the same time, from September 16 through October 6, LEE Oswald was in Japan. Medical records for NAS Navy 3835 (Naval Hospital), located in Atsugi, Japan, show numerous medical entries for LEE Oswald recorded on Sept 16, 20, 22, 23, 29, and Oct 6.. HARVEY Oswald's assignment in Taiwan, while LEE Oswald made numerous visits to the Naval Hospital in Japan, are an obvious "smoking gun."

How do you explain how "Lee Harvey Oswald" was in Atsugi Japan during the very same time he was on the high seas aboard the USS Skagit and then stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

How do you explain how "Lee Harvey Oswald" was in Atsugi Japan during the very same time he was on the high seas aboard the USS Skagit and then stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan?

I don't explain it, because I don't have time or inclination to play games. For the final time, anyone can go on Greg Parker's website and see an explanation for this and the school records and any number of other anomalies although no one can explain every tiny thing and certainly not to your satisfaction since your mind is made up to carry on this charade.

EDIT: I have added links from EF discussions and Greg Parker's site to these pages on my site (scroll down). Anyone can see that the issues have been discussed to death:

https://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2019/10/lho-far-east-chronology.html

https://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/04/robert-oswald-and-stripling.html

Edited October 10, 2019 by W. Tracy Parnell

[Ken Martinson]

On 9/30/2019 at 6:23 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

And yet not one person out of the dozens or hundreds who knew her stepped forward to say she so. This article also addresses the silly assertion that the Evans' tried to tell the WC that she was an impostor:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-two-marguerites-part-2.html

Let's put this in context:  My wife went back to Africa a few years ago and met her two brothers for the first time in 4 years. She said that she didn't recognize them -- adults about the age of 25 - 30. That is just 4 years. Imagine a woman aging for 10 years, and putting on the weight. Would people recognize her?

[Ken Martinson]

On 10/4/2019 at 7:00 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Ken,

Do you have evidence about any of the hypothetical situations you describe above?  Rather than just speculating about everything, let me give you an example of what real evidence shows about “Oswald’s” immediate family.  From the Warren Commission Report

Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7,
1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of
confinement).451 On August 17, he submitted a request for a depend-
ency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support.452
The request was accompanied by an affidavit of Mrs. Oswald and cor-
roborating affidavits from an attorney, a doctor, and two friends,
attesting that she had been injured at work in December 1958, and
was unable to support herself.453 [WCR, p. 688]

The above indicates that “Marguerite” was unemployed from December 1958 until at least Aug. 17, 1959.  In fact, other WC documents

No evidence from me.

In life, mistakes happen and all the pieces of a history puzzle do not fit together well. People's memories are faulty etc.

OTOH, one solid piece of evidence cannot be denied, and can overturn a whole lot of speculation.

Did someone say something about a Mastoid bone in Harvey and Lee...