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EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)


Jim Hargrove
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John, thanks for all the work putting this stuff together.

On our website, John A. wrote that on Dec. 8, 1958 LEE Oswald, while on leave, opened a bank account at the West Side State Bank in Fort Worth.  He listed his address as Marine Corps Air Station in El Toro.  My bet is that the hunter photo was taken around this time.  Note that he is wearing both a sweater vest and a jacket, hardly attire for summertime in Texas.

At the same time LEE was at the big El Toro Marine Corps Air Station, HARVEY was at the much smaller facility (with MACS 9) at Santa Ana, just a few miles away.   To me, this documentary evidence trumps the family's recollections about the time of the military leaves.

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A few posts ago, I replied to Jim Hargrove's light-hearted suggestion that his imaginary Oswald doppelganger and his imaginary Marguerite doppelganger could have existed after all because Mata Hari used a stage double, and a stage double is a bit like a doppelganger, when you think about it. In that reply, I stated that:

Quote

When we discussed this on several threads last year, the relevant doppelganger was claimed to be a native speaker one day, and a non-native speaker the next day.

Looking back over last year's debate about whether or not the hypothetical Oswald doppelganger was a native speaker of Russian, it appears that an official verdict had in fact been reached on this point of 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine.

The hypothetical doppelganger who defected to the Soviet Union sort of was a native speaker, and sort of wasn't a native speaker. It worked like this:

  • The doppelganger had been a native speaker when he was a child in Hungary (let's ignore for now the assumption that a Hungarian would have learned Russian as a native language).
  • But because the doppelganger moved to the US when he was still a child, he ended up forgetting a good deal of his Russian.
  • By the time he was in the Marines, waiting for his defection to be given the go-ahead, he had become essentially a non-native speaker.

That explains why he had to teach himself Russian, just as a non-native speaker would have had to do. That also explains why he did poorly in a fairly elementary Russian test, just as a non-native speaker might have done. Although he was a native speaker in theory, he was a non-native speaker in practice.

If I've misunderstood this aspect of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, I'd be grateful if any of the theory's remaining proponents could correct me.

The problem is, the theory requires those hypothetical masterminds to have been remarkably incompetent:

  • They recruited the sort-of-but-not-really native Russian-speaking doppelganger specifically for his knowledge of Russian.
  • They had control of him from an early age until he defected.
  • Yet they allowed him to forget much of his Russian, the very skill for which they had recruited him in the first place.

It makes you wonder why they bothered, doesn't it? The 'Harvey and Lee' theory really is an incoherent, poorly thought-out mess.

The obvious question remains unanswered. Why would the 'Harvey and Lee' masterminds go to all the trouble and expense of setting up a double-doppelganger project when they could have achieved their goal much more easily?

Why didn't they just recruit a genuine American serviceman and get him to learn Russian? Any ideas?

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Jim:

Paul Bleau was on Black Ops Radio and he mentioned you and John Armstrong in regard to his work on the 5th wallet with $180 in it, and Byron Phillips sponsorship of Marina. He also has a story about this on Kennedys and King.  Did not know that there were so many wallets and have never heard of Byron Phillips before.

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

Paul Bleau was on Black Ops Radio and he mentioned you and John Armstrong in regard to his work on the 5th wallet with $180 in it, and Byron Phillips sponsorship of Marina. He also has a story about this on Kennedys and King.  Did not know that there were so many wallets and have never heard of Byron Phillips before.

Mr. Bleau corresponded with John A. and me while he was writing his piece.  I sent him info on the wallets from one of John’s Dallas speeches.

Here’s a description of Oswald’s Five Wallets from HarveyandLee.net.:

Wallet #1: November 22, 1963 @ 1:42 pm--wallet found at Tippit murder scene; contained identification of Oswald/Hidell; observed and handled by DPD Captain Westbrook, Officers Owens, and Doughty; observed by FBI Agent Barrett; filmed by WFAA cameraman Ron Reiland. Neither this wallet nor the contents were inventoried, cataloged noted on either DPD or FBI inventory lists or photographed. This wallet was last "seen" at the Tippit murder scene and thereafter disappeared. None of the above named DPD or FBI officers volunteered information to the Warren Commission about this wallet.

Wallet #2: November 22, 1963 @ 2:00 pm--arrest wallet--taken from Oswald's left rear pocket by Detective Paul Bentley in route to DPD headquarters. Four DPD officers--Carroll, Hill, Lyons and Walker accompanied Bentley and Oswald to DPD headquarters. All were aware that Bentley had removed Oswald's wallet and looked at the contents. Neither the wallet nor its contents were catalogued or photographed by DPD upon returning to DPD headquarters. DPD photographed the contents of the wallet on 11/23/63. The FBI designated wallet as exhibit B-1. The origin of the above described wallets is known and verified by witnesses. The following two wallets are in the National Archives--FBI exhibit #114 and #382--but their origin is unknown:

Wallet #3: November 22, 1963--brown billfold; FBI #114

Wallet #4: November 22, 1963--red billfold; FBI #382

Both wallets were allegedly found at the Paine residence. DPD officers Rose, Adamcik and Stovall participated in the search. Neither wallet was listed on the their handwritten inventory list nor on the DPD typewritten inventory list (WC exhibit "Stovall A & B"). Neither wallet can be found in photographs of Oswald's possessions taken at DPD headquarters. There is no evidence either of these wallets were found at the Paine's. These wallets first appear on the joint DPD/FBI inventory list of Nov 26,1963 as items #114 and #382.

They were later photographed by the FBI in Washington, DC and are now at the National Archives. During Warren Commission hearings, no DPD officers were asked about nor volunteered information concerning wallets allegedly found at the Paine house.

A 5th wallet was found in the dresser in Marina's room at the Paine residence:

Wallet #5: November 24, 1963--Marina telephoned Ruth Paine and asked Mrs. Paine to bring some of her clothes, some baby clothes and bottles, her husband's wedding ring and wallet. On Monday, November 25, a Secret Service man brought her the wallet, which contained $180.00.

To all of this, Mr. Bleau added a sixth Oswald wallet!  You’d think there might be more than one Oswald to account for all those wallets!  I didn’t know anything about Byron Phillips either.

Much of the stuff associated with the life of “Lee Harvey Oswald” is just weird!

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On 7/9/2021 at 3:30 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Why didn't they just recruit a genuine American serviceman and get him to learn Russian? Any ideas?

It's easy to speculate about anything in this case.  All you have to do is ignore the evidence.  And the evidence covering more than a decade clearly shows there were two LHOs.

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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It's easy to speculate about anything in this case.  All you have to do is ignore the evidence.  And the evidence covering more than a decade clearly shows there were two LHOs.

Said the great exegete of Pope John Armstrong of the Church of HARVEY&LEE. Amen. 

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2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 I didn’t know anything about Byron Phillips either.

Byron Phillips lived in Vernon Texas, which is 190 miles from Dallas. Marguerite was employed by him from about August or September 1961 until January or February 1962. Around this time Lee was trying to return to the US with Marina and his child with him. Phillips signed an Immigration and Naturalization document that stated that he would guarantee that Lee and his family would have financial support when they returned to the US.

Paul Bleau's story on Kennedys and King has some links to documents regarding Phillips, the man who hired Marguerite to work for him. Another person she worked for is also mentioned. You and John may want to have a look at these documents because it provides information that can be added to her timeline.

Paul Bleau is researching a story about the FPCC. He has new evidence and will be publishing it in about three months. Should be interesting.

Edited by John Kowalski
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It is not about Priscilla Johnson but another Armstrong-blunder. 

Quote H&L page 280

"Eight  months after interviewing Oswald, Priscilla Johnson was expelled from 
the Soviet Union (in July, 1960). A short time later, while a corespondent for NANA, she 
covered  Khrushchev's  1960  visit to the  United  States
. "

Close quote.

Really? Khrushchev visited the United States in 1959 ... arrival: September 15. 1959 ...departure:  September 28th 1959 ... 

Edited by Karl Kinaski
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It's hard work, getting a straight answer out of Jim Hargrove sometimes, isn't it? He might want to check out this thread, as might John Kowalski:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27236-for-messrs-hargrove-zartman-kowalski-et-al/

Once Jim has answered Robert Charles-Dunne's reasonable question, perhaps he could turn his attention to mine.

My question is very simple, and appears to have only one possible answer:

  • Question: Why would the 'Harvey and Lee' masterminds go to all the trouble and expense of setting up a double-doppelganger project when they could have achieved their goal much more easily, by recruiting an American serviceman and getting him to learn Russian?
  • Answer: They wouldn't. The masterminds had such a straightforward and obvious alternative that the idea of setting up a long-term double-doppelganger project would never even have occurred to them.

I'm sure that everyone, even Jim, understands that this is the only possible answer to that question.

And I'm sure everyone understands why Jim won't answer the question. Let's give him one more chance, shall we?

  • Question: Why would the 'Harvey and Lee' masterminds go to all the trouble and expense of setting up a double-doppelganger project when they could have achieved their goal much more easily, by recruiting an American serviceman and getting him to learn Russian?
  • Answer
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On 7/9/2021 at 4:30 AM, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The obvious question remains unanswered. Why would the 'Harvey and Lee' masterminds go to all the trouble and expense of setting up a double-doppelganger project when they could have achieved their goal much more easily?

This is your assumption and you draw it like a gun repeatedly.  Do you think that if you say it enough someone will believe it.  Do you have any facts that that would back up your speculation proving that the easier method is the best method?

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On 7/10/2021 at 7:31 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

To all of this, Mr. Bleau added a sixth Oswald wallet!  You’d think there might be more than one Oswald to account for all those wallets!  I didn’t know anything about Byron Phillips either.

Don't you love it?  Six wallets.  Oswald may or may not have had a wallet fetish.  It seems likely with 6 wallets.  I like the reasoning of Jim Hargrove about there being more than one Oswald.  If we split 6 wallets among 2 people that might be reasonable.

I am just saying that if there were 3 Oswalds then that would be 2 wallets apiece and that might be very reasonable.  The problem with this is Marina's relationship to 1 or perhaps 2 Oswalds.  A third Oswald and Marina hiding his wallet in her room  To much for my ancient and creaky mind to consider.

But, unfortunately the number of wallets do not equal the number of Oswalds.  There is just no way to prove anything other than cover up.  

On 7/10/2021 at 7:31 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Much of the stuff associated with the life of “Lee Harvey Oswald” is just weird!

 And, that says everything.  Propaganda, disinformation, altered evidence, coerced witness testimony, and dead witnesses are some of the things one wades through to find some sort of truth in the JFKA..

I didn't know Lee Bowers disappeared for a short period of time and upon his return he was missing a finger.  Wasn't there something about Howard Brennan's hair turning white along with his sand blasted eyes.  Rough games in those days by the cover up people. 

So, Oswald having six wallets seems rather mild.  Astounding, but mild.  Maybe his wallet had something to do with spy Vs spy tradecraft in those early days of American Intelligence.  Maybe some kind of thing left over from the CIA bosses OSS days.

 

Edited by John Butler
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John Butler writes:

Quote

Do you have any facts that that would back up your speculation proving that the easier method is the best method?

There are several facts that support my claim:

  • Fact no.1: According to the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, there was a plan in the late 1940s or early 1950s to produce a false defector who (a) would possess a plausible American background and (b) would be able to understand the Russian that would be spoken around him.
  • Fact no.2: According to the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, this false defector would be activated no earlier than the late 1950s, several years after the hypothetical plan was hypothetically being considered.
  • Fact no.3: In the late 1940s or early 1950s, when this hypothetical plan was hypothetically being considered, there were several million people in the US military at any one time.
  • Fact no.4: Of these millions of servicemen (and women), there must have been thousands who would have had (a) a genuine American background and (b) an above-average aptitude for learning languages that would allow him (or her) to acquire a sufficient understanding of Russian by the time he (or she) was sent to Moscow several years later.
  • Fact no.5: According to the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, the planners would have worked out the best way to achieve their goal.

Those are the facts. Obviously, in the case of Facts nos.1, 2, and 5, the facts are only that the 'Harvey and Lee' theory claims these things. The notion that these things actually happened is speculation.

Now for some more speculation. According to the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, the planners decided that the best way to achieve their goal was to:

  • Recruit an American, English-speaking boy and his American, English-speaking mother.
  • Recruit an eastern European, Russian-speaking boy, who was unrelated to the American boy, specifically for his knowledge of Russian.
  • Recruit a woman who was virtually identical to the American boy's mother, despite being unrelated to her or to either of the boys, to act as a surrogate mother.
  • Maintain the doppelganger Oswald and the doppelganger mother, as well as the real Oswald and the real mother, for several years.
  • Hope that when those several years had passed, and the two boys had grown up, they too would turn out to be virtually identical.
  • Allow the Russian-speaking boy, while growing up in the US, to forget most or all of his Russian, the very skill for which he had been recruited in the first place, so that he would be obliged to teach himself Russian.

All of the speculation I've mentioned is from the 'Harvey and Lee' theory.

Here is the question I've been trying to get someone to answer. I asked how we get from one item of 'Harvey and Lee' speculation:

(i) a false defector was being groomed no later than the early 1950s

to another item of 'Harvey and Lee' speculation:

(ii) the planners implemented a double-doppelganger scheme

Given the incontrovertible fact that plenty of (real-life) suitable candidates for the role of false defector existed, why would the (speculative) 'Harvey and Lee' planners decide instead to implement the (speculative, and vastly more complicated) 'Harvey and Lee' double-doppelganger scheme?

If that isn't clear enough, try thinking about it in terms of 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine. What piece of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory describes the planners' intentions?

One essential item of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory seems to be missing. As far as I'm aware:

  • John Armstrong doesn't mention it in his book.
  • Jim Hargrove or the other 'Harvey and Lee' proponents haven't mentioned it in an online discussion.

I'll be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong and someone can provide either a page reference or a link.

If the hypothetical planners were real, and not speculative, they must have had a good reason for deciding to implement their speculative scheme, mustn't they? What, according to the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, was that reason?

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