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EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)


Jim Hargrove

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3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

John Armstrong went through Oswald’s so-called possessions at the National Archives back in the 1990s.  He believes he was the last private citizen allowed to touch them, but I don’t think he made copies of what he believed were the Russian-speaking Oswald’s pictures of Taiwan, or at least I haven’t come across them in his papers at Baylor University.

But here’s what he has told me about them.  John has spent a considerable amount of time in China.  Although he can read very little Chinese, he says he can easily tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese characters.

The pictures he looked at in the National Archives did NOT seem to be mixed with the ones supposedly taken by Michael Paine, simply because there weren’t that many photos.  And they were classified as “Oswald’s possessions.”  Among the photos were some that showed military tents with Chinese lettering (not Japanese) on signs. These were probably from Taiwan.  I’ll try to remember to ask him for more information.  In the meantime, you might look for photos that have Chinese lettering on signs on or by military tents.

Also, what does it mean for a soldier to “blouse” his boots?

Jim,

Thanks for the reply.  It is helpful.

I can readily identify Korean writing as versus Japanese and Chinese.  Japanese and Chinese look pretty much the same to me.   I will try to look up the difference.  It will help with some of the Asian street scenes in the 201 file.  I don't recall any tents with Asian writing on signs, but will go back and look again.

 "Also, what does it mean for a soldier to “blouse” his boots?"   This is easy to explain, but might take a bit.  I will use a photo of Oswald at the rifle range to illustrate later.

Basically, every service has requirement regulations on how their personnel should dress in uniform and out of uniform.  These are detailed requirements and almost always strictly enforced.  In the Army (and after 2003 in the Marines) soldiers wearing their utility uniforms generally known as fatigues have to stick their trouser legs into their boots.  It is somewhat hard to keep the trousers inside the boot using this method.  So, an alternative method using a large stretchy rubber band (of a sort) to help keep the boot bloused.  In this case it simulates tucking your trouser leg into your boot.

Here are examples:

bloused-boot.jpg

This is a boot blouser which when put on the inside of a folded upward trouser leg simulates the appearance of sticking your trouser leg into your boot.

boot-blouser-band.jpg

This particular requirement for the fatigue dress concerning trousers and boots was strictly enforced in the Army and after 2003 in the Marine Corps.  In the prior post you can see what Marines of that period looked like.

Here's why this photo of Oswald at the a Marine Corps rifle range is a fake.  I didn't notice this for years and more than likely most would never notice.  The red arrow points to bloused boots.  Which was not done in the Marine Corps until 2003.  This is a composite photo that might be constructed with the upper half Marine and the lower half Army.  And, probably the head of Robert Oswald (that's open to interpretation).

oswald-firing-m-1-fake.jpg

When you see bloused boots in the 201 file photos it is a photo of Army personnel and not Marines.  I had this lesson beat into me in the Summer of 1967 at Camp Perry, Ohio.  I haven't forgotten it.

Let me know if this is an insufficient explanation.   

 

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Something on the recognition of Chinese, Japanese, and Korean:

Below is the first sentence of the Wikipedia article on colour orange in hànzì:

橙色,又稱橘色,為二次顏料色,是红色与黄色的混合,得名于橙的颜色

Note how most of the Chinese characters are very square and dense.

Below is the description of colour orange, employing katakana, hiragana, and kanji, all in the same sentence:

オレンジ色は、果物のオレンジの実のような色。また、夕日に染まる茜雲のような色。

As you can see, due to its use of hiragana & katakana, Japanese is slightly more airy and spacious than Chinese.

lho-244-japan.jpg

And,

lho-japanese-scene.jpg

Based on how the character appear these two were the only two photos in the 201 file that had writing that might be Chinese. 

And, these two photos maybe in a Japanese China Town or could be in Taiwan.  I think it's probably a China Town in Japan.  Whether these are Oswald's or Paine's I don't know.

As far as Korean goes:

In South Korea, you can still meet hanja—Chinese characters—every once in a while, but the script is quickly becoming obsolete.

주황(Orange) 하나이다. 색은 빨강과 노랑의 중간색이며.

Notice the many circular shapes used in hangul—these are almost non-existent in the other two languages and so make the script easy to recognize.

One may not be able to read or understand what is said in Chinese, Japanese, or Korean, but one can recognize the various scripts by their appearance.

Edited by John Butler
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John A described the difference between Chinese and Japanese characters pretty much the same way.  

In the next post, I’ll show that the HSCA clearly understood the problem with Oswald being in Japan and Taiwan simultaneously and I'll show how the Committee settled on a phony “solution.”  With that in mind, it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if photos of “Oswald” in Taiwan might not find their way online.

If I understand this “bloused” boots issue, any image of a Marine from the 1950s or 1960s should show his pant legs kind of bunched around the top of the boots, and not inserted into the boots.  Is that correct?
 

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How the HSCA “fixed” the problem of Oswald being in Japan and Taiwan simultaneously

In an undated letter sent to Secretary of Defense Harold Brown, HSCA chief counsel Robert Blakey questioned the very contradiction we have been discussing here when he wrote the following:

2. During which periods was Oswald separated from his units overseas because of hospitalization?

Oswald's health records reflect that he was sent “to mainside for smear” on September 16, 1958. (See Warren Commission Vol 19, p 603; see also Vol. 8, p. 313.) But other records reveal that Oswald's unit, MAG 11, sailed from Yokosuka, Japan, on September 16, 1958, for the South China Sea area, and did not return to Japan until October 5, 1958. (See Warren Commission vol. 23, p. 797; see also Warren Report, p. 684.)

Blakey_to_Brown_2.jpg

Mr. Brown’s office responded with a “Fact Sheet….” that included this statement:

"Oswald did not sail from Yokosuka, Japan, on September 16, 1958. He remained aboard NAS, Atsugi as part of the MAG-11 rear echelon."

Sec_Def_Fact_Sheet.jpg

 

PROBLEM SOLVED!  Except for the fact that the solution was phony.

First of all, both contemporary and modern records clearly indicate that the USS Skagit (AKA 105) departed from Yokosuka, Japan NOT on Sept. 16, as claimed above, but on Sept. 14, 1958.

Hear, again, are the USMC unit diaries describing the ship’s departure with Oswald aboard on Sept. 14, 1958, and “Oswald’s” presence in Ping Tung, Taiwan, on October 6.

09%2014%2058.jpg10%2006%2058.jpg

The web page Sandy found,  TIME LINE 1944 to 1969: USS SKAGIT AKA / LKA 105, showed ....

...under the subhead “Recollections of: Clark Leonard, LT. USMC: Combat Cargo Officer 1958 – 1959,” the following entry:

"Departed Sept.14 and ran into Typhoon Helen, very rough seas, and giant waves. Arrived Kaoshung, Formosa on Sept,19 unloaded matting continuously for 48 hours."

The USS Skagit departed from Japan on Sept 14, 1958, just as the documents above show.  And "Lee Harvey Oswald" was on board.

In addition to the USMC docs shown above, there is quite a bit more evidence that the Russian-speaking Oswald was indeed in Taiwan/Formosa.  In the 1959 Moscow interview with Priscilla Johnson, her notes indicated he observed Americans in foreign countries: “Like Formosa.  The conduct of American technicians there, helping drag up guns for the Chinese.” 

58-14_Formosa_1.jpg

In her finished article, Johnson wrote that Oswald “had spent 14 months in Japan, the Phillipines, Indonesia, and Formosa as a radar operator….”

58-15_Formosa_2.jpg

A message of November 4, 1959 reported that Oswald “served with Marine Air Control Squadrons in Japan and Taiwan with duties involving ground control intercept."


58-16_Formosa_3.jpg

 

A Naval Message also dated November 4, 1959 further confirms that Oswald was Stationed in Taiwan.

 

Nav%20Intel%20memo-1958.jpg

“Marguerite Oswald" told the Warren Commission (emphasis added):

This is a picture of Lee with his marines, and it is a special, I think he was doing special work there. I am not familiar--I wasn't told that. But it is different than the other picture. Lee went to many, many a school, gentlemen. He went to the Marine Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi, to schooling. He went to Jacksonville and some others. I remarked, "Your brothers were not sent from here to there like you were." Lee was in Japan, Lee was in Corregidor, Lee was in the Philippines, and Lee was in Formosa. That has not been publicly stated.

In the 1990s, John A. examined at the National Archives “photographs taken by Harvey Oswald of aircraft, troops and bunkers in Taiwan [which] were found by the Dallas Police among his possessions and are now in the National Archives.”

The evidence that one Oswald was in Atsugi, Japan, while the other was on the high seas and in Taiwan/Formosa is substantial.

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2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John A described the difference between Chinese and Japanese characters pretty much the same way.  

In the next post, I’ll show that the HSCA clearly understood the problem with Oswald being in Japan and Taiwan simultaneously and I'll show how the Committee settled on a phony “solution.”  With that in mind, it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if photos of “Oswald” in Taiwan might not find their way online.

If I understand this “bloused” boots issue, any image of a Marine from the 1950s or 1960s should show his pant legs kind of bunched around the top of the boots, and not inserted into the boots.  Is that correct?
 

Yep.  That's correct.  It appears that sometimes they rolled their trousers up.  In this familiar photo look at the way the trousers and boots are worn.  Marines did not blouse boots until their regulations changed in 2003.  So any photos of the 1950s or 60s should reflect that dress code of unbloused boots.

oswald-in-group-in-philippines.jpg

I have no idea why they dressed that way, but they did and nobody in the Army could change that when Marines visited or were stationed at an Army post.

Your points on the HSCA are well made.  Particularly, Warren Commission Exhibit 918.

 

Nav-Intel-memo-1958-1.jpg

"Oswald did not sail from Yokosuka, Japan, on September 16, 1958. He remained aboard NAS, Atsugi as part of the MAG-11 rear echelon."

A bit of naval jargon to confuse the issue and make you think he is on a ship.  "remained aboard NAS, Atsugi".  Doesn't this suggest a ship.  NAS actually is Naval Air Station, Atsugi and not a ship.  By saying "remaining aboard" suggests a ship and not a land, Naval Air Station..

Edited by John Butler
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I wondered a little bit about the "dragging guns up the mountainside" reference by Oswald in his conversation with Priscilla Johnson.

I asked myself why Americans would be doing the manual labor.

 

These references might explain it a little bi, and lend some credence to what Oswald was saying:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

"During the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis in September 1958, Taiwan's landscape saw Nike-Hercules missile batteries added, with the formation of the 1st Missile Battalion Chinese Army that would not be deactivated until 1997."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis

"Twelve long-range 203 mm (8.0 in) M115 howitzer artillery pieces and numerous[quantify] 155 mm howitzers were transferred from the U.S. Marine Corps to the Army of the Nationalist China. These were sent west to Kinmen Island to gain superiority in the artillery duel back and forth over the straits there."

 

Steve Thomas

Edited by Steve Thomas
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On 10/19/2019 at 1:17 PM, John Butler said:

Yep.  That's correct.  It appears that sometimes they rolled their trousers up.  In this familiar photo look at the way the trousers and boots are worn.  Marines did not blouse boots until their regulations changed in 2003.  So any photos of the 1950s or 60s should reflect that dress code of unbloused boots.

 

John,

 

I respect the work you do, and not having been in the military, I would defer to your knowledge about how some things work, but in researching 

U.S. Marines 1950's - Images, I ran across several pictures of Marines with their boots "bloused" - like this one:

https://macaudailytimes.com.mo/this-day-in-history-1950-pyongyang-taken-as-un-retreats.html

 

 

It looks like sometimes they did, and sometimes they didn't.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited by Steve Thomas
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Steve,

I'm not sure those guys in your photo look like Marines.  They look more like men from the Turkish Brigade in the Korean War.  The Turks were a cruel people and were remembered by the Koreans after the Korean War without fondness.  I heard many stories about the Turks in 1967 and 1968.  Stories of their cruelty and treatment of the Koreans.  This was 10 or 15 years after they left Korea.  I probably need to look that up, the time the Turks left Korea. 

However, they could be Marines.  In reviewing things for those comments I made earlier, I ran across those kind of photos similar to the one you showed.

What you are looking at is soldiers wearing the M-1938 Leggings from WWII and the Korean War.

wwii-leggins.jpg

As far as I know these were not worn after the Korean War. 

wwii-gi-leggins-m-1938.jpg

So, I guess amend what I said to Jim Hargrove to mid to late 1950s.  The system of blousing boots became standard in the Army after the Korean War and replaced this leggings system.  In the Marines they simply did without leggings or blousing boots after the Korean War.

When I first entered the Army those times describing WWII and the Korean War were called the "old brown boot" Army by the men who served during those times.  I served with men who at that time were senior NCOs and had fought in WWII and the Korean War.  The WWII guys were old.  Really old to us who just entered the Army.  They were in their late 30s and early 40s and looked so old to us kids.  I remember fondly, one old NCO who claimed to have served in WWII with "Archie" Murphy.  Of course, he was referring to Audie Murphy, the most decorated man in WWII. 

However, they knew the Army and Army stuff from A to Z and you could learn a lot from them if you listened.   The Viet Nam war was fought by kids or young men 17 to 26 years old. 

If you go to the Oswald 201 file and look at the Michael Paine Army photos mixed in with Oswald's photos, you will see what GIs looked liked form 1953 and afterwards to 1963.  The Ridgeway cap was standard for the time of 1953 to 1963 and was replaced by the Viet Nam era Army baseball cap.  However, by that time, 1953, leggings were out and bloused boots were in.

 

Edited by John Butler
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17 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I wondered a little bit about the "dragging guns up the mountainside" reference by Oswald in his conversation with Priscilla Johnson.

I asked myself why Americans would be doing the manual labor.

image.png.285eed6c5676202e3478e10987fa641a.png

These references might explain it a little bi, and lend some credence to what Oswald was saying:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

"During the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis in September 1958, Taiwan's landscape saw Nike-Hercules missile batteries added, with the formation of the 1st Missile Battalion Chinese Army that would not be deactivated until 1997."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis

"Twelve long-range 203 mm (8.0 in) M115 howitzer artillery pieces and numerous[quantify] 155 mm howitzers were transferred from the U.S. Marine Corps to the Army of the Nationalist China. These were sent west to Kinmen Island to gain superiority in the artillery duel back and forth over the straits there."

 

Steve Thomas

Steve,

Megathanks for that find!  I had no idea that the Russian-speaking Oswald’s unit was sent to Taiwan at the very time American troops were supporting the Taiwanese Chinese against the Mainland Chinese.  According to the Wikipedia article you linked, the whole affair was called the “Second Taiwan Strait Crisis” and was also known as the “1958 Taiwan Strait Crisis.” Fascinating!

On page 197 of H&L, John A. writes that, “ According to Marine Corps records, Oswald was released from the Marine brig on August 13 and returned to active duty. A month later First Lieutenant William K. Trail, assigned to the First Marine Air Wing, MAG II, MACS 1 in Atsugi, recalled that when his group was preparing to depart for Taiwan, Oswald and another Marine were being held prisoners (Harvey, and possibly Paul Murphy?). Trail said the prisoners were picked up by a "chaser" with a gun during transport to Taiwan in September.”

Trail.jpg

John speculates that the Russian-speaking Oswald was held briefly in the brig at Atsugi  prior to boarding the Skagit so he wouldn’t run into the American-born Oswald, or any of that Oswald’s close associates.  As is shown so many different times in H&L, the two Oswalds were associated with entirely different groups of Marines.

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Jim,

Here's something for you to think about.  I don't think I'm wrong, but might be.  Your opinion is always valued.

Harvey Oswald at Atsugi, Japan

 

I have problems with Harvey Oswald being at Atsugi, Japan.  According to Harvey and Lee there are several gaps in time when Harvey Oswald is not accounted for.  For instance, these are the pertinent events to consider:

 

Sept., 1957:  Harvey Oswald leaves Memphis for New Orleans and begins working at the Pfisterer Dental Lab. 

 

December, 1957:  Harvey and Lee says Harvey is working at the Pfisterer’s Dental Lab.

June, 1958:  According to Harvey and Lee, it appears that Harvey Oswald and his caretaker/mother left New Orleans sometime in June, 1958. 

On July 29, 1958 the short, heavy-set Marguerite Oswald impostor opened a bank account at the First National Bank of Ft. Worth, and gave her address as 3006 Bristol Road. HARVEY Oswald, who was living with his caretaker/mother, wrote a letter to the dental lab and said that he had a job in Ft. Worth selling shoes. The letter was read aloud to McBride and to the delivery boys by office manager Earl Williamson.”  Did Harvey report back to the Marine Corps after this period?  His next military appearance is in September. 1958.  

September 14, 1958: Harvey and his assigned unit sail for the South China Sea. 

From the above facts we can say Harvey Oswald leaves the Memphis training school for New Orleans and begins working at the Pfisterer Dental Lab in Sept., 1957.  According to another entry he is there in December, 1957.  And, he is said to have left New Orleans in June, 1958.  He is living with his mother in Ft. Worth in July, 1958.  In July he writes “a letter to the dental lab and said that he had a job in Ft. Worth selling shoes. The letter was read aloud to McBride and to the delivery boys by office manager Earl Williamson.”

The next occurance of Harvey Oswald is on the USS Skagit bound for Taiwan on September 14, 1958.  This is according to his shipment orders.

You of course realize that because of the way these events are listed Harvey Oswald has gone AWOL from the Marines for about a year. 

Harvey goes AWOL for about a year.  Is he punished for this?  There are no records of a Courts Martial, stockade time, but there is a loss of rank.  If you recall Harvey Oswald was promoted to PFC in May, 1957.  Harvey loses his rank as PFC and shows up in USS Skagit orders for Taiwan as a PVT.  This matches Lee’s rank at Atsugi. 

 

Note:  This is a really strange occurrence.  In order to do so Harvey would have to go AWOL from the Marines, come back to the Marines, be punished somehow by Courts Martial, or a battalion or company punishment.  He is reduced in rank.  When did all this occur?  His next appearance as a Marine is September 14, 1958 when Harvey is assigned to go to Taiwan by ship.”  This is aboard the USS Skagit in Yokosuka. 

 

This raises the question how did he re-enter the Corps and when?  Why is there no record of an AWOL and subsequent Courts Martial for Harvey Oswald?  How did he get to Japan? 

 

How Harvey arrived in Japan and came aboard his ship, the USS Skagit, is a bit murky to say the least.  There is a 20 mile difference between Atsugi and Yokosuka, Japan.  Lee’s at Atsugi and Harvey’s at Yokosuka.  And, IMO, that is as close as they come to each other in Japan according to records.  Who knows what events occurred and went unrecorded? 

 

It doesn’t make sense to take the risk of having Harvey Oswald, who has just returned to the service, at Atsugi.  He could simply report to the Marine/Naval facilities at Yokosuka and board the USS Skagit without risking meeting any of the people who know Lee Oswald at Atsugi by visiting there.

 

This is speculation.  Harvey could have been taken under guard from the US to Japan after this unrecorded punishment in the Marine Corps say at Santa Ana or someplace in the Marine Corps.  He could have been taken to Atsugi under guard and under guard taken to the USS Skagit.  Harvey's AWOL may show his reluctance to play ball in the manner his superiors wanted.

 

Harvey was only in Taiwan for about 6 days.  From Sept. 30, to Oct. 5, 1958.  It might explain his so-called psychotic episode at guard duty.  He may have been seeking a way out of his Marine duty and the plans his superiors had for him, defection to the Soviet Union. 

Edited by John Butler
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You’re absolutely right, John.  Harvey spent a considerable portion of his so-called military career living in New Orleans and working at Pfisterers Dental Lab. But you’re thinking of this as a soldier, not as a spook-in-training. I sincerely doubt that Harvey Oswald was ever listed as AWOL, even briefly.

Think of it this way: Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was often just being given a taste of American-born Lee Oswald’s life.  During his training, Harvey was placed in and out of schools, in and out of jobs, and even in and out of the USMC.  The whole idea was to give him an understanding of these aspects of American life, but not to dwell on them so long as to get entangled in his counterpart's life.

Think of questions a Soviet interrogator might ask Harvey in Russia.  Things such as, "Say Comrade, dis Beau-Re-Gaurd School you go to.  Where you eat lunch there?  Basement?  Roof?  Third floor?  First?"   Questions like that would be easy to research for Soviet Intelligence, but best answered by a VERY young spy who had actually gone to the school, just as the Oswald on record had.  Remember, none of this stuff was expected to be put under a microscope.  That only happened when the "Oswald Project" got entangled with the Kennedy assassination, just a few months before President Kennedy was killed.

In short, Harvey Oswald was not a real soldier.  You hinted at this yourself in your post above.  What kind of soldier starts crying and breaks down while standing unchallenged at guard duty?

There’s a rather famous newspaper article published in 1963 by Richard Starnes in which he talks about CIA agents who have infiltrated the U.S. military.  Here’s the whole article, and I’ve put the most relevant part in red:

The Washington Daily News, Wednesday, October 2, 1963, p.3

'SPOOKS' MAKE LIFE MISERABLE FOR AMBASSADOR LODGE

'Arrogant' CIA Disobeys Orders in Viet Nam

By Richard T. Starnes

SAIGON, Oct.2 - The story of the Central Intelligence Agency's role in South Viet Nam is a dismal chronicle of bureaucratic arrogance, obstinate disregard of orders, and unrestrained thirst for power.

Twice the CIA flatly refused to carry out instructions from Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge, according to a high United States source here.

In one of these instances the CIA frustrated a plan of action Mr. Lodge brought with him from Washington because the agency disagreed with it.

This led to a dramatic confrontation between Mr. Lodge and John Richardson, chief of the huge CIA apparatus here. Mr. Lodge failed to move Mr. Richardson, and the dispute was bucked back to Washington. Secretary of State Dean Rusk and CIA Chief John A. McCone were unable to resolve the conflict, and the matter is now reported to be awaiting settlement by President Kennedy.

It is one of the developments expected to be covered in Defense Secretary Robert McNamara's report to Mr. Kennedy.

 

Others Critical, Too

Other American agencies here are incredibly bitter about the CIA.

"If the United States ever experiences a 'Seven Days in May' it will come from the CIA, and not from the Pentagon," one U.S. official commented caustically.

("Seven Days in May" is a fictional account of an attempted military coup to take over the U.S. Government.)

CIA "spooks" (a universal term for secret agents here) have penetrated every branch of the American community in Saigon, until non-spook Americans here almost seem to be suffering a CIA psychosis.

An American field officer with a distinguished combat career speaks angrily about "that man at headquarters in Saigon wearing a colonel's uniform." He means the man is a CIA agent, and he can't understand what he is doing at U.S. military headquarters here, unless it is spying on other Americans.

Another American officer, talking about the CIA, acidly commented: "You'd think they'd have learned something from Cuba but apparently they didn't."

 

Few Know CIA Strength
Few people other than Mr. Richardson and his close aides know the actual CIA strength here, but a widely used figure is 600. Many are clandestine agents known only to a few of their fellow spooks.

Even Mr. Richardson is a man about whom it is difficult to learn much in Saigon. He is said to be a former OSS officer, and to have served with distinction in the CIA in the Philippines.

A surprising number of the spooks are known to be involved in their ghostly trade and some make no secret of it.

"There are a number of spooks in the U.S. Information Service, in the U.S. Operations mission, in every aspect of American official and commercial life here, " one official - presumably a non-spook - said.

"They represent a tremendous power and total unaccountability to anyone," he added.

Coupled with the ubiquitous secret police of Ngo Dinh Nhu, a surfeit of spooks has given Saigon an oppressive police state atmosphere.

The Nhu-Richardson relationship is a subject of lively speculation. The CIA continues to pay the special forces which conducted brutal raids on Buddhist temples last Aug. 21, altho in fairness it should be pointed out that the CIA is paying these goons for the war against communist guerillas, not Buddhist bonzes (priests).

 

Hand Over Millions

Nevertheless, on the first of every month, the CIA dutifully hands over a quarter million American dollars to pay these special forces.

Whatever else it buys, it doesn't buy any solid information on what the special forces are up to. The Aug. 21 raids caught top U.S. officials here and in Washington flat-footed.

Nhu ordered the special forces to crush the Buddhist priests, but the CIA wasn't let in on the secret. (Some CIA button men now say they warned their superiors what was coming up, but in any event the warning of harsh repression was never passed to top officials here or in Washington.)

Consequently, Washington reacted unsurely to the crisis. Top officials here and at home were outraged at the news the CIA was paying the temple raiders, but the CIA continued the payments.

It may not be a direct subsidy for a religious war against the country's Buddhist majority, but it comes close to that.

And for every State Department aide here who will tell you, "Dammit, the CIA is supposed to gather information, not make policy, but policy-making is what they're doing here," there are military officers who scream over the way the spooks dabble in military operations.

 

A Typical Example

For example, highly trained trail watchers are an important part of the effort to end Viet Cong infiltration from across the Laos and Cambodia borders. But if the trailer watchers spot incoming Viet Congs, they report it to the CIA in Saigon, and in the fullness of time, the spooks may tell the military.

One very high American official here, a man who has spent much of his life in the service of democracy, likened the CIA's growth to a malignancy, and added he was not sure even the White House could control it any longer.

Unquestionably Mr. McNamara and Gen. Maxwell Taylor both got an earful from people who are beginning to fear the CIA is becoming a Third Force co-equal with President Diem's regime and the U.S. Government - and answerable to neither.

There is naturally the highest interest here as to whether Mr. McNamara will persuade Mr. Kennedy something ought to be done about it.

 

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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Jim,

Thanks for your reply.  I think you hit the nail on the head with this "But you’re thinking of this as a soldier, not as a spook-in-training. I sincerely doubt that Harvey Oswald was ever listed as AWOL, even briefly. " I liked that and got a good chuckle from it.

One of the problems in thinking that way is that there is little evidence to support it.  I do to much speculating and generally get kicked around for it.  So, I didn't go there in my thinking although it is fairly evident. 

 I have no doubt you are right.  The sequence of events, the military history of Harvey Oswald,  I listed might be used as a kind of negative evidence.  These things should have happened, but there is no record of them.  Why?  And, that why can raise the question what forces are at work here hiding events.  Obviously, your answer is best.  A spook in training as versus a Marine getting away with things no one else in the military would.  The CIA / ONI are at work in the background controlling events. It makes sense.

Training and using children is not an unknown thing in the spy world.  Using a double or triple agent, here I mean using two or three people as one identity, is not unknown in the spying business.  Project Oswald, IMO, was a defection program from its very beginning.  The Soviets were not stupid and would recognize up front a plant (defector).  So, that defector must have something to give to the Soviets that they madly wanted.  He must have bona fides.  What better than knowledge of the most secret military base in Asia, Atsugi, Japan.  Intelligence operations, military operations, atomic secrets, just to name a few about Atsugi. 

Then there is the U2, radar knowledge, and knowledge of other secret bases such as Nellis Air Force base to name just one.  Most Harvey and Lee detractors have the notion that Oswald had no knowledge that the Soviets didn't have and any he could have obtained was not that important.  That's just nonsense.  Aerial intelligence is just fine, but it doesn't tell you everything you might want to know.  Lee Oswald was he only American in Minsk.  Tourists came through, but they didn't live there.  Oswald did.  Human intelligence is vital.  Hence, the defection program.

Back to the U2 and its main problem.  The U2 had a short, usable life span.  It's only trick was to fly high above Soviet planes and missiles.  Eventually, the Soviets would solve that problem and bring it down.  Because of this, I think Harvey and Lee were rushed into military service at a young age, Lee at 16 and Harvey at 17 years old.  The Russians might shoot a U2 down at any time.  An advantage would be lost.

When Harvey and possibly Lee returned to the US, probably at different times, the defection program was over.  What could the Oswald Project be used for next? 

Here's what I think.  Harvey did something wrong at some point.  It may have been his time at the Dental Lab or his incident in Taiwan.  Or, he could have screwed up in Russia and became a double agent, the traditional kind.  He may have turned there.  Or, perhaps his superiors thought Marina had to much of an influence on him.  He burned the training camp on Lake Pontchartrain.  The FBI closed it down.  They may have thought he really was a communist.  Some of the values he had were not in tune with his ultra-right bosses.  Whatever, he was chosen as the patsy.

Compare the CIA sending a plane to pick up Lee Oswald in Dallas that afternoon of the assassination to Harvey's record time capture.

If he had done every thing right and was a fair-haired boy to his bosses,  I don't think he would have been selected as a patsy for the next project of the Oswald Project.  

   

 

 

Edited by John Butler
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John Armstrong and I will be interviewed by Len Osanic on his Black Op Radio program airing October 31.  

We’ll be discussing some updates to HarveyandLee.net that present increasingly clear evidence of the schooling of the two Oswalds from 1953 to 1955.  

I. Fall semester 1953: Lee Oswald at Public School 44 in New York City; Harvey Oswald at Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans.

II. Spring semester 1954: Lee in homeroom 303 (3rd floor) at Beauregard JHS; Harvey in Myra DaRouse's homeroom (basement cafeteria) at Beauregard.

III. Fall semester, 1954: Lee at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans; Harvey at Stripling JHS in Fort Worth, Texas.

IV. 1955: Lee Oswald attends Beauragard JHS in New Orleans; Harvey Oswald works full time at Dolly Shoe in New Orleans.
 

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  • 4 weeks later...

In the late 1950s the CIA conducted experiments on children. One of them had the aim of recruiting them as agents or assets in the future. While these experiments were too late for Oswald, who was by then in the Soviet Union, could there have been other experiments earlier on, where young teenage boys were recruited by the Agency with the aim of merging their identities at a later date and sending one of them to the USSR as a spy.

The excerpt below, which describes one of these experiments, is from The C.I.A. Doctors Human Rights Violations by American Doctors by Colin A. Ross M.D.. On pages 62-63 Ross writes about MK-Ultra Subproject 103:

"Subproject 103 was conducted by Robert Cormack and A.B. Kristofferson at the Children's International  Summer Villages Inc., in Maine. The subjects were 16 to 21 years of age and were there for a reunion; all had attended the camp in previous years as 11 year olds. The academic purpose of the project was to study how children communicate when they do not share a common language.  The CIA was interested in the project as cover for establishing relationships with children from a variety of countries. Obviously, the intent was to recruit them as agents or assets. A MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD from the Subproject 103 documents dated 10 December 1959 states that: It is felt that this project will support the [whited out] need for cover. In addition it will assist in the identification of promising young foreign nationals and U.S. nationals (many of whom are now in their late teens) who may at anytime be of direct interest to the Agency...No cleared or witting persons are concerned with the conduct of this project."

 

 

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7 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

In the late 1950s the CIA conducted experiments on children. One of them had the aim of recruiting them as agents or assets in the future. While these experiments were too late for Oswald, who was by then in the Soviet Union, could there have been other experiments earlier on, where young teenage boys were recruited by the Agency with the aim of merging their identities at a later date and sending one of them to the USSR as a spy.

The excerpt below, which describes one of these experiments, is from The C.I.A. Doctors Human Rights Violations by American Doctors by Colin A. Ross M.D.. On pages 62-63 Ross writes about MK-Ultra Subproject 103:

"Subproject 103 was conducted by Robert Cormack and A.B. Kristofferson at the Children's International  Summer Villages Inc., in Maine. The subjects were 16 to 21 years of age and were there for a reunion; all had attended the camp in previous years as 11 year olds. The academic purpose of the project was to study how children communicate when they do not share a common language.  The CIA was interested in the project as cover for establishing relationships with children from a variety of countries. Obviously, the intent was to recruit them as agents or assets. A MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD from the Subproject 103 documents dated 10 December 1959 states that: It is felt that this project will support the [whited out] need for cover. In addition it will assist in the identification of promising young foreign nationals and U.S. nationals (many of whom are now in their late teens) who may at anytime be of direct interest to the Agency...No cleared or witting persons are concerned with the conduct of this project."

Megathanks for this, John.  Subproject 103 is completely new to me, although most of us are surely familiar with the general outlines of the Agency’s infamous MK-ULTRA project.  The information in the paragraph you quoted is enough to provoke much more searching and researching.  I’ll be spending some more time with this over the next few months.  If you have any more information on Subproject 103, please post it if you can.  Does Mr. Ross’s book have any other information on experiments with children?

Thanks again!

I neglected, by the way, in my previous post to provide a link to the current write-up describing Harvey Oswald and Lee Oswald during three consecutive semesters in middle schools.  The evidence strikes me as simply overwhelming. It’s still a work in progress, but it can be read here:

Lee and Harvey in Three Consecutive School Semesters

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