EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Jim Hargrove]

According to the 3/7/1936 Milwaukee Sentinel, Emil Gardos was born in Romania.  

Wikipedia indicates that there is a relatively small ethnic sect in the Danube delta area of Romania, called the Lipovans, who speak Russian as their primary language.  This is undoubtedly a long shot, but is it possible that the Gardos spoke Russian?

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Deported he may have been, but Emil Gardos had an address in Yorkville (217 East Eighty-sixth Street, New York, New York) according to page 854 of the 1949 Hearings before the Subcommittee on Immigration and Naturalization of the Senate Judiciary Committee ("Communist Activities Among Aliens and National Groups")

Further down page 854 we find "Louis Weinstock, 24 Metropolitan Oval, New York, New York."

https://books.google.com/books?id=mcL15crl6NIC&pg=PA854&lpg=PA854&dq=emil+gardos+communist&source=bl&ots=o7U_PWYM9Q&sig=ACfU3U3gTuLbCsxp36RCBPuCceoiffm1aA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-_eyG1YXmAhUNQ60KHZtlC-QQ6AEwBHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=emil gardos communist&f=false

Again, this further emphasizes my earlier point: the FBI knew exactly who these men were when they got the call from Mrs. Jack Tippit in 1963! The United States Government had been keeping tabs on these men for decades!

A number of newspaper articles, including the March 7, 1936 Cleveland Plain Dealer, indicate that the “immigration and naturalization service of the Department of Labor” ordered that Gardos “must be deported to Roumania, whose territories include Gardos’ birthplace, formerly in Hungary,” or “to any country of his choice” if he “wishes to depart voluntarily….”  What free choice!

Still, it is strange that this apparently deported, or otherwise ordered to voluntarily remove himself from the USA, an “alien Communist” (a phrase from the article referenced above), was able to maintain an address at 217 East Eighty-sixth St. in NYC more than a decade later.  Is this an indication that he may have been turned?  

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

According to the 3/7/1936 Milwaukee Sentinel, Emil Gardos was born in Romania.  

Wikipedia indicates that there is a relatively small ethnic sect in the Danube delta area of Romania, called the Lipovans, who speak Russian as their primary language.  This is undoubtedly a long shot, but is it possible that the Gardos spoke Russian?

Jim,

From the internet:

"Hungarian is the official language of Hungary and is spoken by the majority of the country's population. Several minority languages like Russian, Romanian, Croatian, Serbian, Slovak, Ukrainian, etc., are spoken by the minority communities of the country."

Romanian is a romance language more akin to Italian, Spanish, and French than to any Slavic Language such as Russian. 

From the internet:

"In Romania there are several spoken languages. Beside Romanian, the countrywide official language, other spoken languages are spoken and sometimes co-official at a local level. These languages include Hungarian, Romani, Ukrainian, German, Russian, Turkish, Tatar, Serbian, Slovak, Bulgarian, and Croatian."

At the time of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Empire occupied about 1/2 or more of Romania.  Constantzia (Constanta) is on the Black Sea and this is the area Emil Gardos is supposedly from.  It was outside the Empire and, not in Hungary.  I'll have more to say on that in a moment.  

And,

I am going to assume the orange area is the area of the Lipovans and it is just directly north of Constanta and is probably a good indication that people of that area could speak Russian as a first or second language.  People of the Austro-Hungarian Empire generally could speak many languages.  Simply because there were many different language groups in the Empire outside of Hungary and Austria.

My Grandfather and Grandmother left the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1906 and 1909 respectively.  Their records of ship travel state they were from Hungary.  But, in reality they were from Croatia.  My Grandfather is reputed to have spoken 7 languages.  My Grandfather may be a special case since he was raised by his Aunt and her husband who was an embassy official and they traveled all over Europe when my Grandfather was a child and young man.

Emil Gardos very well may have spoken Russian.  Fred Blair is another case.  From his family history, his family sounds like mid-western American.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Sandy and John Butler,

Yes, I agree that it is at least possible that the mysterious woman caller MAY have mistakenly identified a young "Oswald" (instead of Emil Gardos's real son, John) as the son/nephew of Gardos and Blair in Yorkville. 

That's plausible.

However, there are two powerful counterarguments, and they both involve the behavior of the FBI:

1. In 1963, when Mrs. Jack Tippit reported her mysterious conversation with the unknown woman to the FBI, the FBI would have known instantly to whom the woman referred!

By 1963, Emil Gardos and Fred Bassett Blair had "commie" files a mile thick at the FBI! The FBI knew damn well exactly who the woman meant!

Instead, the FBI deliberately garbled the names - Emil Gardos became "Emile Kardos" (with a very suspicious and prominent handwritten asterisk right over the name!), the longtime FBI target Fred Blair was reduced to anonymity, and the longtime editor of the "Worker's World" (Louis Weinstock, another FBI target) became the more nebulous FNU Weinstock of a nonexistent publication, "Woman's World".

(The FBI's outrageous history of purposely obscuring sensitive names and information has a long, fine tradition, so much so that Harold Weisberg insisted 50 years ago that one needed a special dictionary to translate "FBI-ese.")

Therefore, I find it impossible to believe the FBI's seeming incompetence about identifying the two men mentioned the in phone call was genuine. They pretended they did not know to whom the woman referred.

2. The FBI report about Mrs. Jack Tippit's conversation with the mysterious woman caller was suppressed until 1993 - the HSCA in the 1970's had it, but it was not until the ARRB released it that we got to see it.

http://harveyandlee.net/Harvey Who/Tippit-FBI_Graphical.htm

If this was really a simple case of mistaken identity in 1963, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD BOTH THE WARREN COMMISSION AND THE HSCA HAVE HIDDEN IT FOR DECADES?

No, the fact this report was suppressed tells us there is something sensitive here. It does not tell us that "Oswald" was truly the biological son of either Gardos or Blair, merely that the woman caller apparently thought so. 

But it does tell us that young "Oswald" probably had some kind of Yorkville connection to these men, however brief, a connection that was noted and remembered by this mysterious caller. 

 

 

Paul,

You have me confused.

In the post I quote above you appear to be arguing that there might be a connection between Harvey Oswald and Gardos and Blair, because otherwise why was the report on the phone call altered and then suppressed. And yet a couple days ago, in the quote below, you appear to be saying the opposite... that there is "considerable doubt" of that connection.

Please clarify.

 

On 11/23/2019 at 10:54 AM, Paul Jolliffe said:

There can be no doubt: the mysterious woman caller was referring to Gardos and Blair when she made her call to Mrs. Jack Tippit.

Now, whether the mysterious woman caller was correct about some kind of connection between these men and "Oswald", well of that, there is no evidence and considerable doubt.

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

Paul,

"2. The FBI report about Mrs. Jack Tippit's conversation with the mysterious woman caller was suppressed until 1993 - the HSCA in the 1970's had it, but it was not until the ARRB released it that we got to see it. "

And, if the ARRB didn't release it more time would have passed maybe until the Trump release. 

From what you say in that sentence, I find reason to think the Tippit call is credible.  The woman who called knew the background of the two and possibly their family.  If that is so then she knew about John Gardos.   

Emil Gardos was denied citizenship in 1934.  As far as I know he was not deported.  Maybe the denial of citizenship and non-deportation led Emil Gardos into becoming a government informer.  He had been tracked as a communist for years before by the government. 

I don't have any information on Fred Blair, but I would assume he was a fellow traveler as deep into Marx and Communism as Emil Gardos.

John,

This article from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel helps to fill in the gaps on Fred Bassett Blair. As the headline states, Blair was a Red Menace in the eyes of no less a figure than J. Edgar Hoover.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/life/green-sheet/2017/01/17/milwaukee-bookstore-made-fbi-chief-see-red/96611154/

The article notes that Hoover testified before the U.S. Senate specifically about Blair's bookstore in the spring of 1965. The idea that somehow Hoover's FBI had been unable to identify the two men of the mysterious phone call to Mrs. Jack Tippit in November of 1963 is not worthy of discussion. 

Of course the FBI knew immediately the identities of the two men, yet absurdly, they pretended otherwise!

Why?

Because a public revelation of their true identities would have revealed the real background of the dead patsy, something J. Edgar Hoover was determined to avoid at any cost.

[Paul Jolliffe]

10 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Paul,

You have me confused.

In the post I quote above you appear to be arguing that there might be a connection between Harvey Oswald and Gardos and Blair, because otherwise why was the report on the phone call altered and then suppressed. And yet a couple days ago, in the quote below, you appear to be saying the opposite... that there is "considerable doubt" of that connection.

Please clarify.

 

 

Sandy,

I should have been more precise a few days ago: I do (and did) believe there is a likely connection between "Oswald" and Gardos/Blair. I am not at all sure that connection is biological - young "Oswald" may well have been in their custody/care/orbit for a brief bit in Yorkville at some point, especially if (as I and others have long suspected) young "Oswald" was actually a refugee from some Eastern European nation.

Yorkville was a hotbed for Hungarian Jewish Immigrant resettlement activity: (see page 14 of this pdf)

Note the language diversity in particular:

https://www.josai.ac.jp/jices/common/pdf/2.pdf

 

 

[John Butler]

I have just run across an interesting discussion on this subject.  This is from 2015 in a Forum thread It's Time To Play....Pick That Nose started by Steven Gaal.  The relevant discussion is on page 4.  The interesting part is the discussion of Greg Parker, David Josephs, and Steven Gaal.

It relates to who Emil Gardos, Fred Blair, and Louis Weinstock was.  It gives some information on the things we are discussing here.  Some of it relevant and some not when compared to what we have found out recently.  There is supplemental information that that has bearing on what we are discussing.

If this info was known then the research on the Tippit phone call would have been easier, but looking at it fresh has revealed things that these researchers were not quite sure in a clearer manner.

I'll try to summarize later.  There are interesting possibilities here.

Edited November 26, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Here is something that will help with the deportation date of Emil Gardos and the subsequent leaving of the US by wife Grace.  Emil Gardos is deported by the government in April, 1948.

Hungary had recently been taken over by the Soviet Union.  If not taken over they were certainly dominated by the Soviet Union in 1948.  I suspect in those years the country was being converted to communism.

Here is an idle speculation.  Were Emil and Grace Gardos US agents sent into Soviet dominated Hungary as bona fided communists under persecution and Emil deported by the US government?  Just an Idle speculation.

What happened to John?   

Edited November 26, 2019 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

Geez, how many times did they deport this guy?  The Cleveland Plain Dealer and several other papers reported he was ordered out of the country in March 1936.  John B. finds the Congressional Record reporting him ordered to leave (again) in April 1948.  And yet in 1949 he apparently has an address on Eighty-sixth St. in New York.  This game of whack-a-commie mole seems weird!

[John Butler]

JIm,

I don't think Emil Gardos was ever a citizen.  His application for citizenship was eventually denied by court in 1934 and he was ordered to leave the country.  I think it was a voluntary order.  I don't think he left since there is information that the was still around Michigan and other places in the mid-west in the 1930s, and until 1940 in the Census, and possibly up to 1948.  But, till 1948 is speculative based on deportation.

Emil Gardos was writing articles in various newspapers in 1935 and 1939.  In 1935 an article, Man without Country about Emil Gardos, was written in the Hammond Times in Hammond, Ind.  This article was written by Leslie Eichel from the Central Press staff, New York.

Does your reference to 1949 on Eighty-sixth Street apply to the following:

Emil Gardos

Amalia Gordos

The address is the same:

 217 East Eighty-six Street, New York, NY.

If Emil and Grace are out of the country in 1948 this reference may apply to the Emil Gardos/Bardos fellow who is not the Emil Gardos in question.  He was actually from Poland.  Amalia is harder to track down.  She is the daughter of John (Jan) and Mary (Kasperek) Gardos.  Both of these folks were born in Poland. 

The relationship between Amalia and Emil is uncertain at this point.  Other than having the same address I haven't found any connection.

Just speculation.  This set of Gardos folks may be relatives.  

More idle speculation.  Did Emil and Grace take John to Hungary or leave him with relatives from Poland.  Speculation says this might explain Harvey's polish accent as described by Marina in Russia.  Now that is a real stretch.

The only internet information on John Gardos is that he born in 1939 as was recorded in the Census Record of 1940.  This could be because John was taken out of the country with his parents in 1948, or he went into the Oswald Project early on.  Just speculation. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Jim,

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't one of the central questions of the Harvey and Lee story is who was Harvey Oswald?

[John Butler]

13 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

This article from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel helps to fill in the gaps on Fred Bassett Blair. As the headline states, Blair was a Red Menace in the eyes of no less a figure than J. Edgar Hoover.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/life/green-sheet/2017/01/17/milwaukee-bookstore-made-fbi-chief-see-red/96611154/

The article notes that Hoover testified before the U.S. Senate specifically about Blair's bookstore in the spring of 1965. The idea that somehow Hoover's FBI had been unable to identify the two men of the mysterious phone call to Mrs. Jack Tippit in November of 1963 is not worthy of discussion. 

Of course the FBI knew immediately the identities of the two men, yet absurdly, they pretended otherwise!

Why?

Because a public revelation of their true identities would have revealed the real background of the dead patsy, something J. Edgar Hoover was determined to avoid at any cost.

Paul,

I think from what I have been reading the Fred Blair / Grace Blair Gardos family were all communists.

[John Butler]

This is reposted from Steven Gaal from 2015.  It will help on understanding the Grace/Emil Gardos story.

At one time this was a Top Secret document excluded from declassification.

Speculation:  Was this why Harvey always reading the Worker?  Was he keeping up with Mom and Dad?

Here's another speculation based on Emil Gardos' pension.  Who paid it?  Did the Soviets pay his pension based on his good work as a dedicated communist leader for decades in the US?  Or, did the US pay it for his work as an informant/spy for the US. 

It might be the later since his wife, who had been living in Hungary since 1948, was living at the US Embassy in Budapest when she died.

Edited November 26, 2019 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

On 11/25/2019 at 3:59 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

According to the 3/7/1936 Milwaukee Sentinel, Emil Gardos was born in Romania.  

Wikipedia indicates that there is a relatively small ethnic sect in the Danube delta area of Romania, called the Lipovans, who speak Russian as their primary language.  This is undoubtedly a long shot, but is it possible that the Gardos spoke Russian?

Louis Weinstock's wife was born in Negresti Roumania and lived in Larospratak Hungary before emigrating to the US. While there son was not Harvey, it's clear that their common Austrian Hungarian empire heritage could serve as a catalyst to bring them into contact with people of a similar background in New York city.

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by John Kowalski

[John Kowalski]

Has anyone done any research on Harvey's mother and how they were paired together?