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EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)


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11 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

 

David,

Absolutely right. That further proves my earlier point that Edwin Ekdahl worked, moved and lived in powerful circles, not only in Texas, but in NYC and Boston. Ekdahl was undoubtedly the key link between Marguerite Oswald's youngest son, Lee, and the east coast establishment spooks who made use of Lee's coincidental resemblance to a recently arrived refugee with some language skills. 

The internet did not exist then, so the only way for U.S. intelligence to spot potential doppelgangers was to actually put eyes on boys who (somewhat) resembled each other. 

Ekdahl would seem to be the only person in a position to notice the resemblance between Lee and "Oswald."

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1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

While it is barely possible, I suppose, that little John Gardos grew up to be our "Oswald", I find that extremely unlikely. Simply put, his parents were both living in 1963, yet if John Gardos were posing as "Oswald", that means this little boy had been abandoned by his birth parents at the age of (6? 8? 10? 14?)!!!

Grace Blair Gardos was the mother of John Gardos (as far as we know.) As a parent, I can't conceive of a mother abandoning her child to the custody of strangers in a strange city (NYC) to be raised for some undefined political purpose. If the suggestion is that, well the parents (or at least Emil Gardos, the father) did it out of political expediency or to save his own skin, well again: it just doesn't ring true with what I've seen of the parent/child bond, especially when the kids are little. 

I realize that none of my feelings about this are evidence, but still: any theory that little John Gardos grew up to be our "Oswald" must somehow account for the stunning abandonment by his own living birth parents, especially his own mother.

 

Paul and Jim,

Thanks for the comments.  I posted this statement "At this point there is absolutely no firm connection between John Gardos and Harvey Oswald."  I was working this scenario based partly on the idea there is not any records for a John Gardos after 1940.  This could be due to the fact that he went to Hungary with his mother in 1948.  Or, another fate overcame him as his mother and father went to Hungary in 1948.  

What I was doing was exploring possibilities.  Paul's second paragraph is hard to get past.  That is a realistic description of most folks with there children.  However, If Emil and Grace were truly dedicated communists it would be hard to predict what they might do to advance the cause of communism.  It would be hard to predict what sacrifices they would make.  If on the other hand they were somehow agents of the US because Emil had been coopted as an informer earlier by the US government would they want to take their child into the dangerous conditions of Hungary after WWII as the Soviets converted the country from a pro-facist government to a pro-soviet government with the citizenship of the country being converted to communism from facism? 

I don't know how extensive the war was in Hungary and what damages there were after WWII.  Economic conditions all over Europe were bad with the only help coming from the Marshall Plan.  That would lead to poor conditions and hardships there.  And, there would certainly be dangerous conditions as the country was converted to communism.  8 years later in 1956 the Hungarian Revolution occurred as the Hungarians tried to overthrow Soviet control.   

I don't know whether the Gardos were good communists or posing as good communists.  Either way the deportation of Emil and the subsequent journey of Grace to Hungary incurred a certain amount of risk on their part.  I can see parents under those conditions leaving a child with relatives to not expose him to those risky conditions.  If they were US agents as I suspect due to Grace living and dying at the American Embassy their daily existence in Hungary would be a life and death situation.

David Josephs just posted and interesting piece on the BYP and the newspapers the Oswald figure is holding.  Oswald claimed to be a Marxist and not a hard core communist on a number of occasions.  I don't really want to detract from what he is saying because I find it convincing but, I might add to Josephs piece the notion that maybe someone who set the background composition of the BYP might not have known of this difference in philosophy of socialists and communists.  I suspect that almost everyone doesn't realize there is a difference between the two.

I would position socialism as a gateway drug to communism and a totalitarian state.         

Edited by John Butler
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I tell you what, if that fabled (but never seen by mere mortals) OSS file from WWII (it mentioned "Mrs. M. Oswald", "Nazi's", New Jersey and it had entries dating back to 1941) ever does surface, I'll bet this guy is in the thick of it:

Carl N. Freyman; FBI Spy Recruiter, Handler

By JON THURBER
JUNE 11, 2001
 
12 AM
TIMES STAFF WRITER

"Carl N. Freyman, an FBI agent who in the 1950s recruited a leading member of the U.S. Communist Party as an informant and began one of the most successful spy operations of the Cold War, has died. He was 85.

Freyman died June 3 at a hospital in Hoffman Estates, a Chicago suburb.

That informant, Morris Childs, became one of the key figures in Operaton SOLO, a covert mission that lasted nearly 20 years.

Fluent in German and Spanish, Freyman’s initial posting was to Newark, N.J., where he questioned European immigrants for information on Axis troop and ship movements.

He also proved adept at counterintelligence work and agent handling.

Transferred to Chicago at the end of the war, Freyman continued his intelligence gathering work and also showed talent as a recruiter of FBI agents.

It was during the early 1950s, at the height of the Communist Red Scare, that Freyman came in contact with Childs, who had been a leading member of the U.S. Communist Party and was, for a time, editor of the party’s newspaper, The Daily Worker . . ."

So the FBI's most successful Communist spy was also the editor of "Oswald's" favorite newspaper, "The Daily Worker". 

New Jersey and Yorkville keep coming up on this thread.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2001-jun-11-me-9149-story.html

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47 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Ekdahl would seem to be the only person in a position to notice the resemblance between Lee and "Oswald."

See, now I personally don't see as much of a resemblance - and as you said, other than photos on a table side by side, the two would rarely if ever be compared to each other.

Or the fact that quite a few involved in and around this case looked like him...  I think as he got older, it was easier to find more men who looked like HARVEY...

The photo just below and on the right end is the last photo I know of... of LEE.

59f2660f2179b_63-11-221963v1959Oswald.thumb.jpg.54814dc6efe612f762f160c339ab3242.jpg5a280e6666cfe_oswaldlookalikesVallee-Craford-Vaganov-Lee.thumb.jpg.78bbf5109b2367a64f65ac94fc53b6b0.jpg

 

BTW - I realize he was closer to 5'9" than 5'7"... but still not just shy of 6 feet....

 

1807682822_LittleHarveyandBigLee.jpg.97ee99f3d2f5692d5899d13578da5450.jpg

 

Then there is this complete impossibility.... shows you how bogus that "Marine" image is....

 

411160905_HarveyandLeeArrestandMarinephotoswithsizechart-small.jpg.3101a60547445bb86d4f80b2343e172e.jpg

Edited by David Josephs
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Paul,

That is a very interesting piece.  Someone like this Freyer could have worked on Emil Gardos in the 1920s and 1930s converting him into an informer based on the pressure of deportation and since he was an informer he may have been converted into an agent later.  The Worker and Yorkville and Hungarian immigrants  New York New Jersey seem to have connections.  They pop up in different stories involving the same things. 

Altogether this is a strange story.  Why did it take from 1922-1927 to 1934 to process and cancel Emil Gardos citizenship application?  In 1934 he was under Court ordered deportation.  Why did it take 14 years from 1934 to 1948 to deport Gardos?  Why did his wife follow him there?  Could be any number of reasons.  Who paid his pension?  Why did Grace die at the American Embassy?  Why was she living there?  What happened to John Gardos?  Why were records involving Grace Gardos marked Top Secret and hid for almost 25 years?  Why was this record revealed only after her death at 70 in 1981? 

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37 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

So the FBI's most successful Communist spy was also the editor of "Oswald's" favorite newspaper, "The Daily Worker". 

Then we have John and Marguerite PITTMAN who are sent to Moscow at almost the exact same time Oswald is...

to work as a correspondent for The Worker.... (TBH, not sure if The Worker and Daily Worker are the same)

The info on the PITTMAN's is heavily redacted... FWIW 

 

List of Denied in Full records in JFK Assassination Records ...

May 1, 1975 - Whiting Wlllauer, John Irwin, General. Gray. et al. ... 01/0111964. CIA. 201-289248. CIA. JFK. 0612911993 1. Unclassified OSW17:V3 1993.06.29.09:19:02:840800: ...... MOSCOW. STATE. 11/01/1959 ...... MARGUERITE ...... PITTMAN, JOHN (LOOSE DOCUMENTS) ..... OP FILES ON (STAFF EMPLOYEE).

Edited by David Josephs
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51 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

See, now I personally don't see as much of a resemblance - and as you said, other than photos on a table side by side, the two would rarely if ever be compared to each other.

Or the fact that quite a few involved in and around this case looked like him...  I think as he got older, it was easier to find more men who looked like HARVEY...

The photo just below and on the right end is the last photo I know of... of LEE.

59f2660f2179b_63-11-221963v1959Oswald.thumb.jpg.54814dc6efe612f762f160c339ab3242.jpg5a280e6666cfe_oswaldlookalikesVallee-Craford-Vaganov-Lee.thumb.jpg.78bbf5109b2367a64f65ac94fc53b6b0.jpg

 

BTW - I realize he was closer to 5'9" than 5'7"... but still not just shy of 6 feet....

 

1807682822_LittleHarveyandBigLee.jpg.97ee99f3d2f5692d5899d13578da5450.jpg

 

Then there is this complete impossibility.... shows you how bogus that "Marine" image is....

 

411160905_HarveyandLeeArrestandMarinephotoswithsizechart-small.jpg.3101a60547445bb86d4f80b2343e172e.jpg

These are really well done comparisons emphasizing the difference between Harvey and Lee. 

I think the trick of Harvey and Lee is that they couldn't be seen at the same time or within a short period of time.  There was a need for time to blur their images.  And, if someone did notice Oswald differences there is a good possibility that that someone would attribute those difference to their poor memory and accept whatever Oswald that was present as Lee Oswald. 

Their photos couldn't be compared and that's why there was so much photo editing.  Lee Oswald was edited out of the photo record except for a few things that were missed.  There is numerous accounts of the surly Oswald who mumbles something and then walks away.  There was one lady at the unemployment office, I believe, who noticed the difference between the two.  They met with her separated by a short period of time.

Owen Dejanovich may have met Lee at the Biloxi training class and then Harvey at Iwakuni, Japan.  He noticed differences, but he couldn't say he was a different person.  About a years time had passed from Biloxi to Iwakuni.

Judith Baker has been mentioned lately a time or two.  She said in her book Me and Lee that she was horrible at facial recognition and this got her in trouble with Carlos Marcello.  IMO, Lee and Harvey were both working New Orleans.  One of the things that bothered me about that is would she be able to recognize Lee from Harvey if they met?  If she couldn't that raises complications.

Marina knew the differences between Lee and Harvey and lived with both.  That's just one of the reasons I believe Marina was a Soviet double agent.  She pretended to go along with Lee and Harvey in order to get to the US and then when she was in the US where she wanted to be she doubled back to her Soviet masters. 

 

 

 

Edited by John Butler
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From an earlier page an unanswered question:

"Does your reference to 1949 on Eighty-sixth Street apply to the following:

Emil Gardos

Amalia Gordos

The address is the same:

 217 East Eighty-six Street, New York, NY."

Amalia Gordos has this address in 1949(?).

Earlier we have this for that address:

Grace-gardos-1944-1945-address.jpg

and,

grace-gardos-1944-1945-telephone.jpg

This indicates that 217 East Eighty-six Street was the address of Emil and Grace Gardos up until 1948.  Afterward there is an Amalia Gardos living there.

Amalia Gardos family may have been some relative of Emil's.  If John Gardos was left in the US in 1948 this would have been a good place to leave him.

Still, all in all, it is still speculation.  There is still not enough info to tie this together.   

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47 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Marina knew the differences between Lee and Harvey and lived with both.

John,

I’m quite certain that Marina only knew Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald.  I doubt she even know about American-born Lee.  Just my two cents worth.
 

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11 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

I’m quite certain that Marina only knew Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald.  I doubt she even know about American-born Lee.  Just my two cents worth.
 

Jim,

I must respectfully disagree. I think there is a good chance that Marina knew Lee and accompanied him on the infamous visit to the Furniture Mart on Irving Blvd in the presence of Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth on November 6 or 7. 

I don't think there can be any doubt that the visit involved Marina. She tried to lie about it, but even at the end of her deposition with Wesley Liebler she admitted that she might have been there. The two older women were insistent about it, and at one point during Marina's testimony, Marina virtually admitted it!

Further, it was impossible according to the Warren Commission (and our understanding of "Oswald's" whereabouts) for "Oswald" to have been on that Tuesday or Wednesday midday trip to Irving. 

"Oswald" was at work at the Texas School Book Depository. Further, on the visit to the Furniture Mart,  both Hunter and Whitworth stated that Lee Harvey Oswald drove away the two-tone 1956 or 1957 two tone blue and white Ford or GM!

Lee drove.

Harvey may been learning to drive, but he didn't take a pointless trip to the Furniture Mart during the day in the middle of the week. That was Lee. 

Marina went with Lee on at least this occasion. We believe the purpose of that visit to the Furniture Mart was to set up the (bogus) sighting work done on a rifle in "Oswald's" name at the Irving Sports Shop, by Dial Ryder. All of this was to set up "Oswald", although I doubt that Marina fully understood what was going on. 

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14 hours ago, David Josephs said:

John and I have discussed this possibility...  he write in his book:

Robert Edward Lee Oswald (father of Lee Harvey Oswald)...
Robert lived with his parents at 3419 Canal Street until he married Margaret
Keating, on November 1, 1920, at age 24

Margaret Keating (her year of birth has also been shown as 1896 making her 24 in 1920....)    120 N Telemachus  while LEE and mom live on Exchange... FWIW

David,

 

It's curious.

On January 4, 1960, Lee Harvey Oswald applied for a non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, he listed his mother, Margaret living at 3124 W. 5th. St. in Fort Worth. No brother is listed. Four photographs are provided.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search="Harvey_Lee+Oswald"#relPageId=425&tab=page

(page 411)

 

On January 4, 1961 he applied for an extension of his non-citizen alien identity card. In the space for the names of relatives living abroad, this space is left blank. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search="Harvey_Lee+Oswald"#relPageId=430&tab=page

Page 416

This ID card was extended to January 4, 1962.

On January 4, 1962 Lee Harvey Oswald applied for an an extension for his non-citizen alien identity card. As part of his application he listed his mother as Margaret and his brother as Robert.

“Margaret's” address is listed as P.O. Box 982 Vernon.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search="Harvey_Lee+Oswald"#relPageId=434&tab=page

(page 420)

This identity card was granted an extension until July 2, 1962.

 

In all of the letters Oswald wrote to his mother from Russia that are found in vol. XVI of the WC Hearings and Exhibits (Exhibits 180 - 197)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133

all of the envelopes are addressed to Mrs. M. Oswald.

I don't see where LHO ever addressed his mother as Marguerite.

Curious.

Steve Thomas

 

 

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11 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

I must respectfully disagree. I think there is a good chance that Marina knew Lee and accompanied him on the infamous visit to the Furniture Mart on Irving Blvd in the presence of Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth on November 6 or 7. 

I don't think there can be any doubt that the visit involved Marina. She tried to lie about it, but even at the end of her deposition with Wesley Liebler she admitted that she might have been there. The two older women were insistent about it, and at one point during Marina's testimony, Marina virtually admitted it!

Further, it was impossible according to the Warren Commission (and our understanding of "Oswald's" whereabouts) for "Oswald" to have been on that Tuesday or Wednesday midday trip to Irving. 

"Oswald" was at work at the Texas School Book Depository. Further, on the visit to the Furniture Mart,  both Hunter and Whitworth stated that Lee Harvey Oswald drove away the two-tone 1956 or 1957 two tone blue and white Ford or GM!

Lee drove.

Harvey may been learning to drive, but he didn't take a pointless trip to the Furniture Mart during the day in the middle of the week. That was Lee. 

Marina went with Lee on at least this occasion. We believe the purpose of that visit to the Furniture Mart was to set up the (bogus) sighting work done on a rifle in "Oswald's" name at the Irving Sports Shop, by Dial Ryder. All of this was to set up "Oswald", although I doubt that Marina fully understood what was going on. 

Interesting.  My take is that there was, on several occasions, an entire phony family established for the “Oswald” set-up.  No doubt Gertrude Hunter, especially, identified Marina, but I’m not sure it was the kind of  observation that would stand up to a deliberate impersonation.  John A. wrote:

When Mrs. Hunter was asked about Marina, whom she saw on television after
the assassination, she seemed less able to identify her. Mrs. Hunter said, "The first
time I seen her, she looked just common, just like she did down there at the store that
day, and I guess it was when they fixed her up--it must have been after the funeral and
she was meeting with these people or something, because it was quite a discussion
about how pretty she was and why she let herself go before, because we had discussed
it that maybe he didn't want her to fix up or something…. She's pretty now. She looked
awful down there in that store."53  [H&L, p. 750]

Do you think it was Marina who also visited KOPY in early October and was seen by several of the other witnesses in and around Alice, Texas?  At that time, Harvey was in Dallas, nearly 400 miles away.

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13 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

I’m quite certain that Marina only knew Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald.  I doubt she even know about American-born Lee.  Just my two cents worth.
 

I really don't like to argue with Jim Hargrove since he is right more often than me.  But, it is my contention that Lee Oswald was in Russia and he was there when or shortly after Marina showed up.  This photo to the picture right shows Lee and not, Harvey.  You can't see his face but you can see his left ear. 

The difference between the two, Harvey and Lee, in these photos is their ears. 

Harvey's left ear has two crooks in the upper rim.  Lee's left ear does not have these features.  It appears Lee has been given an earlobe.  Harvey has earlobes.  These ear features are just one of several identifying characteristics of the two.  The photo editors knew about an altered these features when necessary and emphasized in others.  Artists understand these type of things and use them in their art work to make a representation look more like the original.  You can look at baby or young child photos of Harvey and Lee and identify whose who. 

Just as an aside, from the expressions on Marina's face I think she liked Lee more than Harvey.  Because of this dual relationship, IMO, it is the reason that Marina may have been beaten from time to time by Harvey.  I've said enough to get into trouble again so I will quit.

lee-and-harvey-with-marina-the-spy-1.jpg

and,

oswald-on-time-cover-drawing-a.jpg

Edited by John Butler
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6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

In all of the letters Oswald wrote to his mother from Russia that are found in vol. XVI of the WC Hearings and Exhibits (Exhibits 180 - 197)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133

all of the envelopes are addressed to Mrs. M. Oswald.

I don't see where LHO ever addressed his mother as Marguerite.

Curious.

Steve Thomas

 

 

In looking at these letters, it struck me that I don't think I've ever seen any letter s from LHO to his mother from his time in the Marines.

Did Lee ever write his mother from when he was in Japan or Taiwan, or Mississippi or California?

On his September, 1959 passport application. LHO identifies Marguerite C. Oswald as his mother

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=108&tab=page

page 78.

How can he forget her name 4 months later in 1960?

 

Just as an aside, in looking at this 1959 passport application, did somebody mess up his birth date?

Look at the line just above his picture.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=108&tab=page

page 77.

 

Steve Thomas

Edited by Steve Thomas
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