Paul Jolliffe Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) David, If I am following your argument correctly, you believe that because the extant transcripts of the alleged phone calls made from the Cuban Consulate to the Soviets on Friday afternoon, Sept. 27 have nothing to do with the substance of the conversations/confrontations between Duran, Azcue and an unknown male earlier that day, that therefore that same unknown man could not have been deliberately impersonating our "Oswald", correct? I agree that the existing transcripts we have of the alleged phone calls from the Cubans to the Soviets on Friday afternoon are deeply suspect, for all the reasons you've listed. Those transcripts are probably completely phony, at least in terms of connecting our "Oswald" to the earlier visits to the Cuban Consulate. You and I also agree that our "Oswald" was never inside the Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27, and never interacted with either Duran or Azcue. We agree that some unknown man was there, who did indeed have some kind of interaction (maybe heated, maybe not) with Duran and Azcue. We agree (as does LITAMIL 9) that this unknown man did NOT resemble our "Oswald." (Apparently he was short, thin, blond and poorly dressed.) You believe that the lack of supporting documentation from either Azcue or Duran about a suspected American spy in their midst is evidence that no such suspect appeared before them on that Friday. Fair enough. However, I doubt if Azcue and Duran really considered this unknown man to be an American spy. My impression is that both of them described this man's actions and words as if they believed he was some sort of naive fool - after all, they made it clear to him he could NOT get an immediate transit visa to Cuba! Would they - at the time - have considered it likely that U.S. intelligence agencies would have sent this idiot on a hopeless mission, one doomed to fail? I doubt it. And therefore, I think it is at least possible that they dismissed the entire episode - at the time - as nothing more than pathetic effort by a dumb, ignorant clown, not worthy of further comment. Obviously, on November 22, 1963, their interactions with this man would come under heavy scrutiny. But back on September 27, I could see both of them dismissing this obnoxious, stupid young man without a second thought. So, the key question remains: did this young man, whoever he was, deliberate invoke our "Oswald's" identity during his meeting/conversations/confrontations with Azcue and Duran, or not? If not, and if this man's business was completely unrelated to our "Oswald", then how in the world did this particular mundane episode become entangled in the "Oswald" legend? How would David Atlee Phillips have seized upon it a week later to serve as the basis for the "Oswald - in - Mexico City - meeting - with - Commies" myth? If this man's (legitimate?) visit to the Cuban Consulate was indeed completely unremarkable, then how in the world would DAP have even known of it, let alone how it could be twisted into the "Oswald in Mexico City" myth later? Yet DAP is seemingly taking action by no later than October 7 about these visits. It seems likely to me that this unknown young man, whether he deliberately used "Oswald's" identity or not, really did visit the Cuban Consulate at least once on Friday, Sept. 27, and that he really did want a transit visa to Cuba and the Soviet Union. That part of the story, as related by Azcue and Duran, rings true - they did not make that part up out of thin air. So, could the visit of this unknown man to the Cuban Consulate have been seized upon by DAP a week later to create the myth that this young man was, in fact, our "Oswald"? Well, theoretically, yes it is possible. But it would be one helluva coincidence if some unknown young man, completely unrelated to anything "Oswaldian", really visited the Cubans to secure a visa through Cuba to the USSR just at the same time that the JFK assassination plot was really heating up, and plans to frame our "Oswald" were in place. And I don't believe in coincidences. Edited January 23, 2020 by Paul Jolliffe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said: However, I doubt if Azcue and Duran really considered this unknown man to be an American spy. From what I have read - and the statements from AMMUG/1 (who along with a handful of the DGI staff talk about Oswald but never quite say they actually saw or interacted with him.... It's always "he said that she said that he saw him and relayed that to another who told my friend who told me...." Any American asking to go to Russia via Cuba (or not) is going to be looked upon with suspicion at the Cuban Embassy in Mexico... hotbed for intel activity all thru the 60's. The job of AZCUE was to interview those applying for a visa to a "communist" country and discover the person's true intent... to make it harder for them to get into their countries. Oswald - if he was to have actually been there - was most definitely there for some intel purpose... same as his time in Russia... AZCUE would be remiss in his duties if he did not at least question the man... from what DURAN and AZCUE say - it feels matter-of-fact.... Just enough truth to believe the lie.... none of what is offered as activity on the 28th or Oct 1st is true... but we knew that.... Question becomes If Alvarado, a CIA asset can tell an amazing story and then be coerced to recant... what do you supposed the Mexican Police and the CIA could do with/for DURAN? The de la Paz party was a lie, Alvarado a lie, the 28th-1st a lie, no evidence of Oswald outside the "LI-XXX" audio tapes, Were you aware that ODUM/HOSTY interviewed ODIO on Dec 18th? and then nothing until July 22, 1964 - her testimony.... Mr. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald?Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt. John Masen on the left (also arrested 11/22) - just to show an unshaven Oswald Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when your sister saw Oswald's picture on television that she almost passed out. Did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment?Mrs. ODIO. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said, "Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?" "...the entire material we have to date ON THIS PROBLEM" and what the WCR tells us.... Nothing to hide here... move along... move along.... ---------- CORNWELL - Did the officers from the Securidad Department ever suggest to you during the questioning that they had information that you and Oswald had been lovers?TIRADO - Yes, and also that we were communists and that we were planning the Revolution and uh, a lot of false things. CORNWELL - Let's just talk hypothetically for a moment. Is there any chance that he was at the Consulate on more than one day?TIRADO - No. I read yesterday, an article in the Reader's digest, and they say he was at the Consulate on three occasions. He was in Friday, Saturday, and Monday...That's not true, that's false. CORNWELL - All right. Let's try a different hypothetical. If the one in the Reader's Digest is definitely wrong, is it possible that he first came on like a Thursday, and then came back on a Friday?TIRADO - No, because I am positively sure about it. That he came in the same day. So what can we say here? DURAN is adamant about the man from the application being at her desk on the 27th. One of the bigger clues - the one which got me started on this journey is the HOTEL REGISTRY BOOK from OCHOA.... The tourist Visa from New Orleans is written out: "LEE, HARVEY OSWALD" which is were we get H. O. LEE traveling in Mexico... Yet when we look at the 1st day of his stay at this hotel, the day the guest actually signs the book, we get the same exact thing, as if copied: Problem being the MASTER LOG - FM-11 is supposed to alphabetize the FM's for the 1st and 2nd halves of the month... below is the one for the 2nd half of Sept... Mr. H.O. LEE is somehow correctly alphabetized under "O" for Oswald.... despite us being told repeatedly he used H.O. LEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted January 24, 2020 Author Share Posted January 24, 2020 One piece of evidence suggesting the Mexico City charade was not just an opportunistic after-the-fact creation by David Phillips is the apparent indication that on Oct. 3rd and 4th, when one Oswald was at the Downtown YMCA and Texas Employment Commission in Dallas, another Oswald was nearly 400 miles to the south in Alice, Texas. This Oswald apparently told radio station KOPY personnel that “he had just come from Mexico.” If true, this suggests the Mexico City frame-up pre-dated the efforts by Phillips to exploit it. One other possibility is that Hoover just made up the “just come from Mexico” remark to tighten the evidentiary noose around “Lee Harvey Oswald,” but, if memory serves (and it often doesn’t) , in an interview independent of the FBI, KOPY manager Stewart also repeated the Mexico claim. Does anyone remember that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kowalski Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 My contact at DPF told me that he will be going to Madison in a week or two to copy the Blair papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 13 hours ago, John Kowalski said: My contact at DPF told me that he will be going to Madison in a week or two to copy the Blair papers. John, Great! Maybe, if your contact can provide information to check the Russ Geck story that would be great. Fred Blair's papers are voluminous. Does he need to know what to look for at U. of Wisc., Madison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 David, Excellent images. Has anyone done more comparisons like this with other alleged Oswald doubles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Jim, I have finally understood why you and others consider this photo as Harvey Oswald other than factual statements. This hair pattern of Harvey is covered up in later photos by comb overs. The balding spots to the left and right of Harvey's head is covered by comb overs as demonstrated in this photo. You have to look closely. And, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kowalski Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 32 minutes ago, John Butler said: Great! Maybe, if your contact can provide information to check the Russ Geck story that would be great. Fred Blair's papers are voluminous. Does he need to know what to look for at U. of Wisc., Madison? John: I gave him a list of files and folders to copy. These files focus mainly on family history and genealogy. Do not want him to look for specific names, instead want him to copy whole files. This is a lot easier to do than reviewing files looking for specific people. He said that he had limited time to work on the files so I sent him the list below and told him that the files are listed in order of priority. box 1 folder: Biographical Material, 1923-1979 - approx. 100 pages box 4 folder 1: Biographical Clippings, 1928-1972 - approx. 20 pages box 4 folder 14: Blair Family Genealogy - approx. 10 pages box 5 folder 2: Gardos, Grace Blair and Emil (sister and brother-in-law), 1964-1980 - approx. 20 pages box 1 folder 2-4: Correspondence, 1941-1979 - approx. 400 pages box 4 folder 3a-3b: Correspondence, Miscellaneous, ca. 1943, 1947, 1957-1980, undated - approx. 300 pages box 2 folder 7: Legal Cases, 1946-1947 - approx. 30 pages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) John K, Box 5 is particularly important. Box's 1 and 4 are also good for finding new material. Any information on Emil Gardos and Grace Amelia Blair Gardos is important also. Any scrap of information on their early years since about 1935 would be important, regardless of whether we can see any importance now. Another thing might be good. The Gardos relation to Gus Hall, Louis Weinstock, and others living in Yorktown, NYC. I would suggest your contact copy the following: 1. Box 5 20 pages 2. Box 4 Folder 14 Genealogical material 10 pages 3. Box 4 Folder 1 20 pages 4. Box 2 Folder 7 Legal Cases 30 pages 5. Search Box 1 for any relevant material related to the FBI document- associations of any kind. 6. Search Box 4 for any related associations or material that can be linked to the FBI document. 7. Also, Box 3 for any related material. Copying 400 pages is a expensive, lengthy and tiring endeavor. I can't advice your contact to copy the whole box. Let me know what this costs so I can help defray the costs. Email to jbutlers@bardstowncable.net Edited February 8, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, John Butler said: I have finally understood why you and others consider this photo as Harvey Oswald other than factual statements. John, No, we think that is American-born LEE Oswald, Robert’s natural brother. The photo was supposedly taken by Robert in November 1958 while LEE was on leave from the USMC. At the same time, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was stationed at MACS 9 in Santa Ana, CA, where he became friends with Neson Delgado, who said Oswald showed him a copy of Das Kapital and talked continuously about Castro, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic. While on leave, LEE opened up a bank account at the West Side Bank in Fort Worth and listed his address as the Marine Corps Air Station in El Toro, where he was briefly assigned. LEE was at El Toro also at the same time HARVEY was at MACS 9 in Santa Ana. The two installations were just 10 or so miles apart, and some WC members and staff seemed to believe they were the same bases, but they were clearly separate. Despite all this, there’s little doubt that the photographic records in this case have been seriously compromised, as you probably know better than I do. Edited February 8, 2020 by Jim Hargrove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 16 hours ago, John Kowalski said: My contact at DPF told me that he will be going to Madison in a week or two to copy the Blair papers. WONDERFUL! Please keep us posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: John, No, we think that is American-born LEE Oswald, Robert’s natural brother. The photo was supposedly taken by Robert in November 1958 while LEE was on leave from the USMC. At the same time, Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was stationed at MACS 9 in Santa Ana, CA, where he became friends with Neson Delgado, who said Oswald showed him a copy of Das Kapital and talked continuously about Castro, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic. While on leave, LEE opened up a bank account at the West Side Bank in Fort Worth and listed his address as the Marine Corps Air Station in El Toro, where he was briefly assigned. LEE was at El Toro also at the same time HARVEY was at MACS 9 in Santa Ana. The two installations were just 10 or so miles apart, and some WC members and staff seemed to believe they were the same bases, but they were clearly separate. Despite all this, there’s little doubt that the photographic records in this case have been seriously compromised, as you probably know better than I do. Jim, The memory must be shot. I could have swore that you referred to that photo as Harvey at one time. My opinion at an earlier time was that it was Lee, but later decided you couldn't tell who that was and decided it might be someone else, or so edited you couldn't tell. He has Harvey's hair pattern, nose, ears, and chin. But, not Harvey's overall appearance. All of these things can be argued. I notice that in the 1957 Marine Corps photo of Lee he is beginning to show the same pattern. It is remarkable that some one could pick out two kids that looked alike and determined (maybe) that it was likely they would have the same hair pattern and looks as adults. Not plausible. So, lacking further evidence I'll go along with the Lee Oswald interpretation at this time. Thanks for the clarification. Edited February 8, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 17 hours ago, John Butler said: Jim, The memory must be shot. I could have swore that you referred to that photo as Harvey at one time. My opinion at an earlier time was that it was Lee, but later decided you couldn't tell who that was and decided it might be someone else, or so edited you couldn't tell. He has Harvey's hair pattern, nose, ears, and chin. But, not Harvey's overall appearance. All of these things can be argued. I notice that in the 1957 Marine Corps photo of Lee he is beginning to show the same pattern. It is remarkable that some one could pick out two kids that looked alike and determined (maybe) that it was likely they would have the same hair pattern and looks as adults. Not plausible. So, lacking further evidence I'll go along with the Lee Oswald interpretation at this time. Thanks for the clarification. John, The photo evidence for "Lee Harvey Oswald" drives me crazy, and I'm not good with faces to boot. Nevertheless, the so-called hunter photo you showed is interesting because the jacket American-born LEE Oswald is wearing looks a lot like CE162, the jacket "found" near the Tippit murder scene. As you know, John A. believes American-born LEE Oswald was used to frame Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 Jim, the collar wings on the lower jacket look a lot smaller than those on the jacket worn by Os. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kowalski Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 22 hours ago, John Butler said: Box 5 is particularly important. Box's 1 and 4 are also good for finding new material. Any information on Emil Gardos and Grace Amelia Blair Gardos is important also. Any scrap of information on their early years since about 1935 would be important, regardless of whether we can see any importance now. Another thing might be good. The Gardos relation to Gus Hall, Louis Weinstock, and others living in Yorktown, NYC. I would suggest your contact copy the following: 1. Box 5 20 pages 2. Box 4 Folder 14 Genealogical material 10 pages 3. Box 4 Folder 1 20 pages 4. Box 2 Folder 7 Legal Cases 30 pages 5. Search Box 1 for any relevant material related to the FBI document- associations of any kind. 6. Search Box 4 for any related associations or material that can be linked to the FBI document. 7. Also, Box 3 for any related material. Copying 400 pages is a expensive, lengthy and tiring endeavor. I can't advice your contact to copy the whole box. Let me know what this costs so I can help defray the costs. Email to jbutlers@bardstowncable.net John: I asked my contact not to read each file because this is time consuming. It will be faster if he copies all documents in each file. Not sure if he is going to pay to have them copied I believe that he has a camera and will copy each page. Thank you for your financial support, will update you if he does not copy all files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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