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EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)


Jim Hargrove
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2 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Jim, the collar wings on the lower jacket look a lot smaller than those on the jacket worn by Os.

Ray,

Good catch.  The collar on the jacket in the 1958 photo does appear to be larger.  Also, the 1958 jacket has an upper pocket.  I can't see that pocket on the CE 162 jacket because it may be covered by the tag.  It does not look like a pocket is there.  I will try to find other photos of CE 162.

CE 162 does not have an upper pocket.

oswald-jacket-ce-162.jpg

Edited by John Butler
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1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

John:

I asked my contact not to read each file because this is time consuming. It will be faster if he copies all documents in each file. Not sure if he is going to pay to have them copied I believe that he has a camera and will copy each page.

Thank you for your financial support, will update you if he does not copy all files. 

 

 

John K,

Thanks.  Keep me posted.  I think some valuable things will come from those boxes.  I want to check those records against the Russ Geck story.

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2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

The photo evidence for "Lee Harvey Oswald" drives me crazy, and I'm not good with faces to boot.  Nevertheless, the so-called hunter photo you showed is interesting because the jacket American-born LEE Oswald is wearing looks a lot like CE162, the jacket "found" near the Tippit murder scene.  As you know, John A. believes American-born LEE Oswald was used to frame Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald.

Lee-1958%20from%20Robert.jpgJacket%20CE%20162.jpg 

Your not alone in being driven crazy by the photos of Lee Oswald.  It is my firm belief that Lee Oswald has been edited out of the photo record except for high school photos that can't be changed, photos showing Lee at a distance, generally to small to see much and to low a resolution to scale upward, and to blurred to matter.  Then there is the composites and face masks that change Lee into Harvey.  Robert Oswald would have to say any photo reputed to be Lee Oswald, including those of Harvey, were Lee Harvey Oswald.  IMO, Robert Oswald is one of the conspirators.

It is my strange, and really not that provable believe, that Lee Oswald was the person handing out leaflets in front of the trade center that has Chauncey Holt in that series of frames.  Lee's face is covered by Harvey's face.  Some see it and others don't. 

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1 hour ago, John Butler said:

IMO, Robert Oswald is one of the conspirators.

Robert clearly knew what was going on with the two Oswalds, but I’m not sure I’d call him a conspirator.  My guess is that he helped create the identity of the two Oswalds for entirely patriotic reasons: to send a U.S. spy who secretly understood Russian to the USSR.   That project didn’t get intertwined in the JFK assassination until 1963. 

I can’t find the document itself at the moment, but there is a Garrison memo reproduced widely on the net that says, “If you really want to know what I think, it is that Robert Oswald knew this returning defector was not really Lee and this is what Robert's problem was the night of the assassination when he found it necessary to take such a long drive to think things out. He knew things were far more complicated than they appeared on the surface.”

Immediately after the hit, my bet is that someone came to Robert with a quite a tale, convincing enough to keep him from telling what he knew for the good of the country.  Obviously, this is conjecture.

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3 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Jim, the collar wings on the lower jacket look a lot smaller than those on the jacket worn by Os.

Perhaps, and there is also a question about a pocket flap that may be on the hunter jacket but not CE162.  Still, they both look like similar, off-white Eisenhower-style jackets to me.

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3 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Robert clearly knew what was going on with the two Oswalds, but I’m not sure I’d call him a conspirator.  My guess is that he helped create the identity of the two Oswalds for entirely patriotic reasons: to send a U.S. spy who secretly understood Russian to the USSR.   That project didn’t get intertwined in the JFK assassination until 1963. 

I can’t find the document itself at the moment, but there is a Garrison memo reproduced widely on the net that says, “If you really want to know what I think, it is that Robert Oswald knew this returning defector was not really Lee and this is what Robert's problem was the night of the assassination when he found it necessary to take such a long drive to think things out. He knew things were far more complicated than they appeared on the surface.”

Immediately after the hit, my bet is that someone came to Robert with a quite a tale, convincing enough to keep him from telling what he knew for the good of the country.  Obviously, this is conjecture.

Your conjecture is plausible.  After the assassination Robert became at the least a co-conspirator.  I can hold two opposing ideas in my mind and believe in both until the evidence falls out one way or the other.  That gets me in trouble a good deal of the time by expressing one of those ideas.

The tale told to Robert might have been the same one told to others about war with the Soviet Union and nuclear destruction.  After all it supposedly convinced Chief Justice Earl Warren. 

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24 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Perhaps, and there is also a question about a pocket flap that may be on the hunter jacket but not CE162.  Still, they both look like similar, off-white Eisenhower-style jackets to me.

Jim,

Yep.  You are right.  Who else has caught the pocket difference in almost 57 years.  Most artists copy images.  They will use a model (sometimes live), a photo, a postcard, a calendar, or something that has an image to copy.  To successfully copy that image you must know the details of that image.  You must be able to spot those details to use in transferring that image in your artwork that make that work a recognizable duplicate of the image your copying.  My best example of this in relation to this topic is a Time cover showing Harvey Oswald.

oswald-on-time-cover-drawing-a.jpg

You could have left this detail out of the painting and no one would have noticed.  The image would still be seen as Harvey Oswald without that detail.  But, it would become evident to the artist that studied the photo and perhaps be seen as an alteration. 

Other people (this detail is rarely seen in other people)  have these bends in their ear.  It may be genetic is some sense.  If you have an image that you think is Harvey Oswald, then this detail of two bends in the upper rim of the left ear can strengthen your belief that you are seeing an image of Harvey Oswald.

Edited by John Butler
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John,

You've probably seen this already, but immediately below is a reproduction of the poster Jack White prepared at John A's suggestion called "The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald."  I copied the printed poster as best I could with a cell phone camera (which seemed to work better than my equally expensive 35mm SLR camera), and it may be a little better than it looks at first.  All or most of the captions are easily readable if you download and enlarge the image.  Does anything stand out to you?

Evolution_of_LHO_Poster.JPG

Some more mugshots, hopefully of both Oswalds, appears on the first page of HarveyandLee.net, as shown below.

H&L%20multiple.jpg

In the images above, according to the available biographical information about each photo, the top row should show American-born LEE Oswald, and the bottom row should be of Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald, although we both know how questionable the photo evidence is.  Any thoughts?

 

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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On page 47, John Butler wrote:

Quote

I have finally understood why you and others consider this photo as Harvey Oswald

Jim Hargrove corrected him on this important matter of doctrine:

Quote

No, we think that is American-born LEE Oswald ... there’s little doubt that the photographic records in this case have been seriously compromised

John Butler replied:

Quote

My opinion at an earlier time was that it was Lee, but later decided you couldn't tell who that was and decided it might be someone else, or so edited you couldn't tell. 

He has Harvey's hair pattern, nose, ears, and chin.  But, not Harvey's overall appearance.  All of these things can be argued. I notice that in the 1957 Marine Corps photo of Lee he is beginning to show the same pattern.

The experts' inconclusive conclusion: the photo in question could be of 'Harvey', it could be of 'Lee', it could be genuine, or it could be faked in some unexplained way. They really don't know.

And how could they? It's all based on guesswork. There doesn't seem to be any agreement among the believers about whether 'Harvey' and 'Lee' were:

(a) identical and indistinguishable, to the extent that they could fool their friends and family; or

(b) easily distinguishable, with noticeably different heights and facial features; or

(c) identical some of the time, on those occasions when the theory requires them to look identical, and different some of the time, on those occasions when the theory requires them to look different.

Of course, the photo in question may even be a perfectly genuine photo of the historical, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr Butler continues:

Quote

It is remarkable that some one could pick out two kids that looked alike and determined (maybe) that it was likely they would have the same hair pattern and looks as adults.  Not plausible.

Correct! It is indeed not remotely plausible that two young boys, unrelated to each other and from different parts of the world (with identical-looking mothers of exactly the same age who were also unrelated to each other and from different parts of the world), could have been selected for some top-secret doppelganger project with any confidence that they would turn out to be dead ringers a decade or so later, when they had grown up. It's encouraging to learn that Mr Butler is not afraid to point out how utterly ludicrous the basic premise of the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense is.

Sadly, reality again takes a back seat when Mr Butler writes:

Quote

It is my firm belief that Lee Oswald has been edited out of the photo record ... Lee Oswald was the person handing out leaflets in front of the trade center that has Chauncey Holt in that series of frames.  Lee's face is covered by Harvey's face.

Oh dear. Surely Mr Butler can see that it's Billy Lovelady's face that has been pasted in to cover the face of 'Lee', and that Chauncey Holt's face is covering that of James Files. Judyth Baker's face is covering Beverly Oliver's, but she has been cropped out of the final version, as has the Loch Ness Monster, which was heading down the street towards the camera, riding a bicycle.

Now let's look at the 'evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald' mugshot collection. How many Oswalds can you see there? Official 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine proclaims that there are two. But which is which? Perhaps the believers could tell us:

(a) If you think 'Harvey' and 'Lee' were different in appearance, which photo is of 'Harvey' and which is of 'Lee'? And, more importantly, on what grounds do you make the distinction? What facial and other features were specific to 'Harvey', and which to 'Lee'?

(b) If you think 'Harvey' and 'Lee' were identical, how would you account for the discrepancies in the height of Oswald as recorded on various official documents?

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2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It is indeed not remotely plausible that two young boys, unrelated to each other and from different parts of the world (with identical-looking mothers of exactly the same age who were also unrelated to each other and from different parts of the world), could have been selected for some top-secret doppelganger project with any confidence that they would turn out to be dead ringers a decade or so later, when they had grown up.

As he usually does, Mr. Bojczuk misrepresents the Harvey and Lee evidence and then argues against his own misrepresentation.   Let’s take a look at a couple of little pieces of evidence.  

Texas Employment Commission employee Laura Kittrell met the two Oswalds in October 1963 and described their similarities and differences on many occasions,  including in an 1978 interview with the HSCA’s Gaeton Fonzi.

According to Mr. Fonzi, Ms. Kittrell felt the second Oswald she met “looked the same… the same general outline and coloring and build, but there was something so different in his bearing….”

Kittrell.gif

Ms. Kittrell made every effort to inform authorities in a timely manner about her encounter with the two Oswalds. As John A. said in a 1997 speech, Ms. Kittrell “gave a thirty-page statement to the U.S. Attorney in Dallas. Her statement was hand carried to the Warren Commission by the Secret Service. But her 30-page statement and subsequent 90-page manuscript in which she discusses her interviews of the two Oswalds, were ultimately ignored and suppressed.”

The full 90-page manuscript can be read at the online John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University.

Ms. Kittrell interviewed the first Oswald  on October 3, 1963, and that night this Oswald apparently stayed at the Downtown Dallas YMCA.

image.png.310edd115117bb94ca5662a771cb47

Remarkably, on the very same evening Oswald also appeared to numerous witnesses at radio station KOPY in Alice, Texas, nearly 400 miles south of Dallas.  This Oswald was told to come back to the radio station the following day, which he did. Some 17 witnesses more or less confirm the visit of this Oswald (some seeing his “family”) to southeast Texas, far from Dallas.  It even made the Associated Press.

KOPY.jpg

John Armstrong wrote, “Both the FBI and Warren Commission were aware that "Lee Harvey Oswald" could not have been in both Alice, Texas and Dallas, Texas on October 3rd and 4th at the same time. Chief Justice Earl Warren held up publication of the Warren Report until the FBI completed their "investigation" of the incident at Alice, Texas, because of potentially damaging political issues.” [H&L p. 710]

For decades, the best write-up on that Alice, Texas incident has been Chris Courtwright’s fine article, 

Oswald in Aliceland? A Tale of Two Days: A Tale of Two Oswalds
 

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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Jim,

In the bottom group (red back ground) I don't agree on 1952 Lee.  Should be Harvey, IMO.  1953 Harvey is an unknown, IMO.  1956 Harvey is Lee, IMO.

The top group has just heads.  You can't tell from just a head view if some of the photos have been altered.  Some of the youngest Oswalds have a Harvey substituted for a Lee.  Various indicators in a photo such as divergent shadows can indicate substitution. 

Jack White did a fine job in assembling this poster.  I have a few disagreements on whose who?  But, overall the poster is basically correct.  Correct enough to show a Harvey and Lee theme.

Standard techniques for altering a person's appearance in photos in those days were substitutions, composites, and face masks.  Some of these techniques are evident in the whole photos that the head shots were taken from. 

 

 

Edited by John Butler
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Jim,

The way I look at Mr. Bojczck hasn't changed much.  Once again he is making a mountain out of a molehill.  Defined as "Making a mountain out of a molehill is an idiom referring to over-reactive, histrionic behaviour where a person makes too much of a minor issue."

Often I will go out on a limb doing out of box thinking.  I have a good resources here on the forum.  There are several people who keep up with what I comment on and if I am wrong they will correct or clarify the situation.  Which, I will now think them for that help.

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On 2/8/2020 at 7:19 AM, John Butler said:

David,

Excellent images.

465258136_OswaldandMasen-EvicafeelsElsworthistalkingaboutMASENandnotOrcaberrio.jpg.7d54bf0aa72298f1c8e21d2fa9db1f3d.jpg

Has anyone done more comparisons like this with other alleged Oswald doubles?

Here's a few more for you John

Top right is a very short guy - but for the life of me I cannot remember his name...
Vaganov in the middle
LEE inset next to Vaganov, 
Larry Crawford and Arthur Vallee

5a280e6666cfe_oswaldlookalikesVallee-Craford-Vaganov-Lee.thumb.jpg.78bbf5109b2367a64f65ac94fc53b6b0.jpg

 

And a couple more looking like Mr. Oswald...  brother Robert and Robert Webster...

 

131387758_RobertOswald-HarveyandRobertWebster.jpg.3ba34538a71e6887d1e25705be3462f1.jpg

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On 2/8/2020 at 7:33 AM, John Butler said:

I have finally understood why you and others consider this photo as Harvey Oswald other than factual statements. 

The photo of LEE with a rifle hunting with his brother Robert (who I assume took the photo)...  I can't imagine Jim claiming this is Harvey....

In fact the medium light colored zippered jacket MAY have even come from this photo, Harvey did not own such a jacket.....

That image is one of the last we every see of LEE OSWALD... FWIW

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David said,

"That image is one of the last we every see of LEE OSWALD... FWIW"

You are absolutely correct.  Lee Oswald vanishes from the photo record in 1958.  Most photos of him earlier have been adjusted to appear as Harvey.  IMO, I believe there is a few shots in Russia and a couple of teenage Lee.  Russian Lee runs contrary to Harvey and Lee and is my theorizing.

I've always had a problem with the alleged Oswald Doubles.  You pointed this out also.  None to very few resemble Harvey Oswald at all.  Here's a few more for the record. 

Virgilio Gonzalez is said to be an Oswald Double.  I don't see it at all.

Harvey-Oswald-Virgilo-Gonzalez.jpg

Then there is Billy Seymour.  I don't see this either.  He may be the source for the sloppy, dirty, unshaven Oswald.

Harvey-Oswald-Billy-Seymour.jpg

Kerry Thornley is one of my picks for a double, particularly because of the events in New Orleans.  This is a later photo of Thornley.  He resembled Oswald more in his younger years. 

Harvey-Oswald-Kerry-Thornley.jpg

And, there are Mexican Oswalds.  These fellows do not resemble Oswald at all.

Mexican Oswald No. 1.

Harvey-Oswald-Mexican-Oswald-No-1.jpg

Mexican Oswald No. 2.

Harvey-Oswald-Mexican-Oswald-No-2.jpg

Off hand, I can't think of any others.  If someone can I'll try to get photos and post them here.

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