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EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)


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3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

John never told Palmer McBride to rebuke Lifton ...

Armstrong's theories regarding McBride have been debunked for all but the H&L hardliners:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/palmer-mcbride.html

While lurkers are on my site, please click "sitemap" and scroll down for 27 articles that debunk various H*L theories.

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41 minutes ago, Stephen Lavin said:

Hope this helps.

Best wishes

Stephen 

It does Stephen and as you can probably tell by now... I've read (and heard) many, MANY responses similar to yours.

I'd like to differentiate between "Impersonation" and "evidence of duplicity".

In south Texas during the time the CIA puts him in Mexico and the FBI sends him to Dallas we have sightings of Oswald and small family... impersonation
Signatures in guest books - impersonation

Now I know you feel this started in the military - as I researched the school records for the early years of Oswald's life (which is FUBAR by Marge, Robert and John Edward) I found the complete Tarrant county school records for every area...  in June 1948 MARGE EKDAHL divorces Edwin yet during the entire school year ending in June 1948 she is listed as Marguerite Oswald AND there is no LEE OSWALD... only HARVEY and the never-been-found-who-the-heck-is-that NANCY LEE...

3 months later in Sept 1948 HARVEY has the needed 7-9-39 birthdate (which supposedly got him into 1st grade, he'll be 9 years old in Oct '48... 3rd grade
His mother is now DIVORCED (with a claim that the divorce decree asks to reinstate her OSWALD name - it doesn't) yet her name is back to the pre 1948 EKDAHL...
and NANCY LEE is crossed out but has a 10-19-39 birthdate.  She is 1 year younger than HARVEY born 1 day after he was yet is not listed anywhere but on the pages of the TARRANT COUNTY school children records... (and yes I went thru every one of the 3500 pages in this book to be sure he wasn't listed anywhere else)

These two boys are not the same:  on the left 12 year old LEE in 6th grade 5'4" 115lbs Oct 1951  /   on the right is HARVEY at the end of 7th grade-Aug 1953 almost 2 years later and he's 6 inches shorter and 20 lbs lighter... "duplicity"

Read John Edward Pic's testimony... FWIW

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One man being 5'9" and 135 lbs while the other is 5'11" and 160 is "evidence of duplicity"
When you compare the teeth of the exhumed Oswald to the teeth of the Oswald in the Marines, miraculously 3 adult teeth have fully and completely grown back - "duplicity"
When the WCR biographer John Ely compiles Oswald's life and finds not only conflicts but scores of people who served with HARVEY in Santa Ana and is not aware of ANY of those in El Toro serving with Lee - "duplicity"
When Asst Provo Marshall Gorsky reaffirms Ely's info - that Lee was at El Toro / Harvey Santa Ana and that LEE is released in March 1959, not Sept... that DC gets his files and we get the testimony of Mrs. Steenbarger (a military wife and her son) putting LEE OSWALD on a plane to France at the exact same time Harvey Oswald is on a boat, also to France on his way to Moscow....

Stephen, there is really so much more... the military is but one such series of examples of the "duplicity"....

So if okay with you, can we differentiate them when discussing the evidence....  there are a number of people LOOKING like Oswald... none of them caused duplicity like this:

Peace... DJ

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4 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Armstrong's theories regarding McBride have been debunked for all but the H&L hardliners:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/palmer-mcbride.html

While lurkers are on my site, please click "sitemap" and scroll down for 27 articles that debunk various H*L theories.

Believe what you like WTP....  let's see... would the FBI or Mr. McBride be more likely to lie about Oswald during this time....

(btw - you might want to read a bit more about what Ely did... and why it had to be "altered"

:huh:

1583546685_PalmerMcBridetoDavidLifton-complete-web.thumb.jpg.e869eed33f551997b3b17159186f9f9b.jpg

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14 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Believe what you like WTP....

I think more work could be done on this to debunk McBride but I don't have the time or inclination right now. It is not necessary at this point since most people ignore H&L. An informal poll here showed a majority (of the overwhelmingly conspiracy-orient researchers here at EF) disavowed the theory.

But, it is a simple choice really. You can believe that the documentation of LHO in the Marines and the tax records. Or you can believe the assertions of McBride, which are based solely on what he and other people "remember" (usually after being coached by Armstrong). In that case, the documentary evidence is faked. Which brings up the old question. How does a H&L advocate know what is faked and what is real? Answer-anything that debunks H&L is fake and anything that supports the theory is real, even if it comes from the evil FBI or wherever. My advice-get an unbiased panel of people that includes investigators, police, attorneys and scientists. Show them your evidence and see what they say. And when they say you are wrong, you guys will say they are "in on it."

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58 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

But, it is a simple choice really. You can believe that the documentation of LHO in the Marines and the tax records.

Copies of copies provided by the FBI who kept each and every original document....

So yeah WTP... those without a desperate need to cover their a$$es and gain NOTHING by telling a conflicting truth about Oswald...

... or Hoover's good ole FBI... ever read anything by Swearingen?  https://www.amazon.com/FBI-Secrets-M-Wesley-Swearingen/dp/0896085015 

May give you some idea to what extent the fabricated evidence extends....  Agents would simply make up informants and meetings with them to show they worked overtime...

It always appears to be the case that critics like yourself use the FBI to SUPPORT your conclusions... when each and every item of so called "evidence" cannot be authenticated... cannot be made into acceptable REAL EVIDENCE...

So yeah WTP - I take the word of those with little to gain and everything to lose over the FBI in 1963/4....

If this case teaches you anything, it's that Hoover's FBI was terribly corrupt and made in his own image....  sorry that continues to elude you.  :up

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1667833118_NancyLeeandHARVEYOSWALDlivingat15058thFtWorthgotoschoolin1947-NotBenbrookSchool.jpg.0ed6673b2e580e542b2756e587cd066c.jpg

Yeah, who in the world was Nancy Lee Oswald living with Harvey at the time.  She is younger by one year than Harvey.  But, not really, the the record says they are about 3 months and 10 days difference.  That makes sense at the beginning of the school year.  The birth dates are too close for twins.  And, two close for siblings in a normal family.  Marguerte Ekdahl and Marguerite Oswald are the same person.  So, one can conclude that some relative was living with Ekdahl/Oswald along with Harvey.  But, who and why?  Could be any number of reasons.

Here is a far out, kooky conspiracy thought based on the birth dates.  What if these record are altered record or records.  (David Josephs would know best on this)  Based on the dates these could be the birth dates of Lee and Harvey and there is no Nancy.

1.  Nancy is in this school for only one year. (47-48)  She disappears in the second year (48-49), probably at the beginning of school.  From the way the bottom record was prepared she was expected to be there.  And, was later crossed out when she didn't show.  As far as I know there are no further records of Nancy Lee Oswald.

2.  Lee Oswald's service record says he was discharged in March, 1959.  If Lee Oswald entered the service when he was 16 years old this discharge in March, 1959 makes sense.  He had tried earlier and failed to enter the Corps at age 16.  Maybe he tried again and succeeded at a later date prior to age 17.  What if he did this in New Orleans.  This could explain him being at Paris Island, SC and not at a California training base.

3.  Lee Oswald is said to be a Corporal in the fall of 1956 when Harvey entered the Marine Corps in October, 1956.  If this record is true then there is no way for Harvey to advance to the rank of E3 (Lance Corporal).  It takes 8 months in the service in a prior grade (E2) to obtain that rank.  Here's how it is in the Corps today:

"Moving up the Marine Corps Ranks: Like the promotion to process to PFC, Marine Corps company commanders have the authority to promote active duty enlisted Marines to the rank of LCpl (E-3) when they have completed nine months Time-in-Service and eight months Time-in-Grade. "

Actually, Lee would not have time to reach the rank of E3 (LCpl) in the time between March, 1956 and the fall of 1956.  These are fairly rigid requirements.  But, anything is possible in the spy business.

4.  Then we would have to explain how Lee got out of the service in March, 1959 if he entered in July, 1956 when he became 17.  There are more days than 90 days for an early out for school, or coming back from a foreign war service, or a foreign country.  There are hardship early outs to take care of a family member.  Harvey got one of those in Sept., 1959.  Maybe Lee got one earlier and this one was hidden.  ???  More questions than answers.

5.  Here is another.  Why is Lee Harvey Oswald called Harvey in 1947-48 and 1948-49 years?  Wasn't he always called Lee?

6.  In the 47-48 school year Nancy and Harvey are living with Marguerite Oswald.  In the following year 48-49, Nancy and Harvey are living with Marguerte Ekdahl.  At least Harvey is and Nancy has disappeared. 

These records are very suspicious.  

 

    

 

 

Edited by John Butler
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14 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Here is a far out, kooky conspiracy thought based on the birth dates.  What if these record are altered record or records.  (David Josephs would know best on this)  Based on the dates these could be the birth dates of Lee and Harvey and there is no Nancy.

Really wish we could talk before you post John....

October 31, 1945:  "Address on (BENBROOK SCHOOL) enrollment card is "Worth Hotel" AND 7408 Ewing which is not bought until 1948.  MO lists LEE's Bday as July 9, 1939 to get into school".... 

On October 31 Lee Oswald entered the Benbrook Common School. His age was shown as 6, his birthday was listed as July 19, 1939 (his actual birth date was October 18, 1939), his address was given as Box 567, Benbrook, and his guardian was listed as E. A. Ekdahl. Mr. Stowe, County superintendent of Schools in 1963, advised the FBI that the family probably gave a different birth date (July 19), because September 1 of each year was the cut-off date for children to enter school. Lee Harvey Oswald had to be six years of age as of September 1, 1945, in order to gain entrance to the Benbrook Common School. Marguerite probably listed his birth date as July 9, 1939, in order to enroll him in school.54

I believe the child needed to be a certain age by Sept 1 to get into school... except I also looked thru the 45-46 records are there is nothing for OSWALD or EKDAHL.  And we've never seen this enrollment card...

Her Bday of 10-19-39 is the day after LEE's recorded birthday...  and here is 49-50... Robert is back, John Edward joins the Military, Ted Oswalt has been listed in all the previous records... 
but now HARVEY has NANCY LEE's bday...  closer to his own but not his....

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And finally CE1960-C is a copy of the Ekdahl Divorce judgment.... yet I also have the county clerk filed version which excludes the sentence about restoring her name to Oswald...

FWIW

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Marge and Edwin Ekdahl DIVORCE papers - does not say revert name to Oswald.pdf

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"I believe the child needed to be a certain age by Sept 1 to get into school... except I also looked thru the 45-46 records are there is nothing for OSWALD or EKDAHL.  And we've never seen this enrollment card..."

I don't think using a false date to enter the 1st grade was necessary in Texas in the 1940s.  I don't see Marguerite's need to falsify a date to enter Lee or Harvey in school in the 1st grade.  Generally, all school districts in a state and between states follow much the same guidelines for children entering into school for the first grade.  Legislatures realizing that Americans are truly mobile people, as least as far as children are treated, have adopted basically the same rules concerning school entry, class structure, and grading systems across the U. S.  This was more so in the past than in the present day.

In the past (including the 40s), in almost all states (Texas included) there were requirements of being 6 year old to enter the first grade.  5 year old children were generally allowed to enter the first grade if they were 6 before Jan. 1 of the following year.  If a child was not 6 by Jan. 1 of the following year then they had to wait another year.

In school records a day off in a birthday is not considered that significant for some.  It is generally just looked at as a typing error and ignored sense it takes sometime to correct a typewriter error.  Generally, school secretaries and guidance counselors are over worked two times a year with paper work.  This occurs when school starts and when school ends for that year.  With different school secretaries or Guidance Counselors (those are the folks who generally handle school records) and error can be easily repeated for the second years record.  This also depends on whether these folks are sticklers or are more relaxed in their dealing with records.

So, from the records Nancy disappears and there are no further records?

Do you have any more info on Harvey F. Oswald?  A relative?  Brother of Robert Oswald, Sr.?

 

 

Edited by John Butler
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22 minutes ago, John Butler said:

So, from the records Nancy disappears and there are no further records?

Do you have any more info on Harvey F. Oswald?  A relative?  Brother of Robert Oswald, Sr.?

Correct - NANCY LEE OSWALD from 1947/8 offers nothing more than these TARRANT county records...

Harvey Francis Oswald was one of Robert Sr's brothers....   as to the rule about entry ages for children starting school... I believe you had to be 6 by Sept 1st... Lee would be 6 in Oct '45
I believe we got this info from the Tarrant County people...

I still am having a hard time with the creation of a person - in the first place - and that fictional person just happens to live with HARVEY OSWALD and MARGE EKDAHL ???

:ph34r:

 

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David,

Just one of the confusing things here is that, as John A. wrote, the 7408 Ewing address appeared on the Benbrook Common School 1945-46 enrollment card two years before Marguerite purchased the house on Sept. 15, 1948.  Was there some sort of arrangement with a previous owner that allowed her to stay there?  There’s no evidence for that.

John wrote, “Marguerite Oswald purchased the house at 7408 Ewing on September 15, 1948, but the instrument transferring title to the property (the deed) was not recorded until four years later. on August 20. 1952. The next entry recorded in Tarrant County land records is the sale of 7408 Ewing. also on August 20. 1952.130 Title to the Oswald's home passed to and from Marguerite Oswald on the same day.” [H&L, p. 42]

From some Real Estate work that I’ve done, it’s clear that not that many decades ago it sometimes literally took years for home sales to be recorded, though I always found that odd.  How was an owner protected if a deed was not recorded by local authorities for years?  But it seems to have happened often enough.

But for the real confusion, almost every day the question strikes me: Who on earth was Nancy Lee Oswald?  (Nice discovery!)  That is just so weird that I’m not quite sure why you reject out of hand John Butler’s self-proclaimed “kooky conspiracy” about Nancy Lee being a stand-in for a second LHO.  Can you explain that to me directly?  I’d appreciate it.  The 1508 8th Ave. address is where Edkdahl, Marguerite, and Lee lived after their separation, but that doesn't begin to explain who Nancy Lee Oswald was.

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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Jim,

As a former school teacher, I know a bit about how things worked in the old days concerning educational practice stretching back to the 50s.  My career in education began in the mid 70s. 

David and I have a point of disagreement ( a minor disagreement) on whether a 5 year old (would be 6 by Jan.1 of the following year) could enter a Texas school.  David says he had been informed a child must be 6 by Sept. 1 of that school year.  He may very well be correct.  At that time I had no way to disagree.  This has come up once before.

I think I can now put this very minor disagreement to rest.   

1667833118_NancyLeeandHARVEYOSWALDlivingat15058thFtWorthgotoschoolin1947-NotBenbrookSchool.jpg.0ed6673b2e580e542b2756e587cd066c.jpg

If you look at this record for 1947-48 and 1948-49 school years the answer is there.  I probably noted this subconsciously and went with my explanation why it was not necessary for Marguerite to falsify a birth date.

Nancy Lee Oswald's birth on the 1948-49 is listed as 10-19-39.  This would be the same birth date used in the 1947-48 school year or earlier.  Oct. 19 is past Sept. 1.

So, in all likelihood Texas followed the same practice as most states in the U.S. in the 1940s.  This would be allowing 5 year old children into the first grade if they reached the age of six sometime before Jan. 1 of the following year.  This kind of policy would allow Nancy Lee Oswald into the first grade with an Oct. birth date.

An exception to this for the first grade might still mean that Texas could have had a must be  6 years old by Sept. 1 and could be bypassed.  This exception is the child was in another state that followed the policy I have suggested.  And, this child who attended the first grade at 5 years in another state would be allowed into the first grade or later in the same grade in Texas.

The 1947-48 school year was the second grade, I believe.  If Nancy Lee Oswald was admitted to the first grade at 5 years old then passed into the 2nd grade in another state then as a matter of reciprocity with another state would retain that 2nd grade status when transferring into a Texas school.

If I am wrong about the 1947-48 school year as the 2nd grade the process would still work for the 3rd grade. 

Nancy Lee Oswald's birth date and the possibility of being from another state is the only rationalization I can come up with that she is a real person.  Other than these two records there is no further data.

A genealogical search for Nancy Lee Oswald, b. 10-19-39, turns up lots of Nancy Lee Oswalds of about the same age in other states, but no real matches of any substance.

 

Edited by John Butler
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Jim and David,

My wife loves to do genealogy research.  So, she has researched David's genealogy table.  It is accurate as can be.

280454557_WilliamMaxwellOswaldpedigree-familytree-Oswaldshighlighted.jpg.d0940efd3802f5d74aefeafd5024fde9.jpg

Her results say that in Robert Edward Lee Oswald's sibling generation there were 6 children  and none were born in the year 1939, except Lee Oswald.  Amongst the grandchildren of this generation there was no Nancy Lee Oswald.  So, she was not a daughter or grand daughter of Robert's siblings.  The list of children for Robert's generation is:

Adele b. 1908

Floy b. 1918 

Shirley b. 1919

Alice Carter b. 1921

Robert Edward, Jr. b. 1934

Lee Oswald b. 1939

John E. Pic abt. 1932

One last thing.  Have you seen this photo or know anything about it.

oswald-in-arizona.jpg

 

Edited by John Butler
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On 2/21/2020 at 10:32 AM, John Butler said:

One last thing.  Have you seen this photo or know anything about it.

John B:

Amazing photo, where did you find it?

Edited by John Kowalski
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