EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Jim Hargrove]

29 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I take your point.  However, I don't think any of the photos below age 5 are Lee Oswald.  I think most are Harvey prepared for people like us, at least the ones I have seen, are of Harvey.  In some, he is added to the photo.  This is not hard work for photo editors.  That's how they make their living whether in Hollywood, the CIA/FBI, or down at the Dallas Morning News, just to use that newspaper as an example of newspapers in that day, and other organizations like that.

Photo editing can change features such as heads, shadows, highlights, whole bodies, and any image in a photo.  Or, in the case of Mannikin Row in the Zapruder Film a whole group of people.

We are talking about two different Harvey's.  One is a two year old boy who seems to be well fed and well cared for an another, a 13 year old boy who was not well cared for physically.  I think Dr. Hartog is over stating the case.  In no photo of Harvey is there any resemblance to a real concentration camp victim.  Or, even a starved out WWII refuge. 

I disagree on the boy at the Bronx Zoo.  You and David agree this is Harvey Oswald.  He is well fed, muscled, and has no appearance of a concentration camp victim.  Any other picture I have seen of Harvey in his younger years does not resemble a concentration camp victim.

Dr. Hartog's description of Harvey I say is part of the basis of the Lone Nut gunman theory.  As a psychiatrist he is lacking, reading his description and motivations, I've come to believe he is over rated as a medical person and a psychiatrist.   

John,

We could speculate forever about these images.  If I'm remembering correctly, many of the very young images of "Lee Harvey Oswald" that we're now seeing were introduced on the web some years ago (10 perhaps), ostensibly by Robert Oswald before he died.  Robert, for what I believe were patriotic reasons, clearly participated in the Harvey and Lee charade up to and including the false defection, though I doubt he had any guilt in the Kennedy assassination other than keeping his huge secret during the various so-called investigations.

However, Robert was clearly involved in U.S. Intel for the H&L project, and therefore we can only speculate as to whether photos we're seeing now, especially those that weren't gathered by the FBI, come from some sort of family holdings or from intelligence agencies.  I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

[John Butler]

24 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

I think we're putting too much emphasis on the photos.  They're fun and easy to talk about, but just as easy to mischaracterize and misrepresent.  But since we're talking about the mug shots, here is what I think is LEE's far more receding hairline:

It's all in the details.  This montage has Lee in Texas hunting in Feb., 1958.  Lee was at Atsugi, Japan during that time.  A short time later he is in the Philippines in March or April, if memory serves.  However, Harvey over in New Orleans was available for most of 1958 to make a quick trip to Texas and go hunting.  According to what I am seeing Lee doesn't return to the US until about 16 Nov. 1958.

I may be mistaken about Lee and military leave in Feb. 1958.  I can't find anything about it in David's timeline, Tracy Parnell's time line  (I'll have to check this), or my own.

The Lee and I must be Robert.  How trustful was Robert on two photos in question?  Of course this has to be Lee to Robert if there is no Harvey.

[David Josephs]

45 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

David,

This is interesting, but it's hard to keep up with this thread.  Do you have the full records you've labelled "1" and "2" above, or do you have just what is shown in the excerpt of CE 1873?

Yes I do and I'll remind you that you showed me how the grade cards were simply modified (#1 and #3 from my composite) so while not lining up, the grades from that first line are the same...

#2 is a completely different card - CE1873-B - and I recently found yet another version (Bottom) with the WILLING ST address which they only lived in while Lee was in 2nd grade.

They moved from 8th to Willing then to Ewing... the completed CUMULATIVE RECORD has them jumping from 8th to Ewing...  on 3/18/48 he changes schools at the same time they move to Willing.... 

Notice too that on Card #1 the destination is #18 Clayton yet it says "Original record sent to #28   5-9-49"  by that date there would have been 4 lines of school years like on Card #3

On the newer, yellow BOTTOM CARD - why doesn't it match card #2 - it completely skips over 1-27-47 while the final cumulative record skips over 2nd grade entirely..

 

 

 

[David Josephs]

54 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I may be mistaken about Lee and military leave in Feb. 1958.  I can't find anything about it in David's timeline, Tracy Parnell's time line  (I'll have to check this), or my own.

The Lee and I must be Robert.  How trustful was Robert on two photos in question?  Of course this has to be Lee to Robert if there is no Harvey.

Correct... there is no leave in Feb 1958... 

Robert is about as trustful - IMO - as Marina... 

But since this record reflects where HARVEY WAS and not LEE... I wouldn't expect to see anything related to LEE here except for some of the legendary stuff like his arrest, gunshot wound... etc.

anyone know what "Cnf SSCM" or SSSCM stands for?

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

This montage has Lee in Texas hunting in Feb., 1958. 

The "hunter" photo was likely taken in early March 1957.

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/the-hunter-photo.html

[Richard Price]

David, according to a search I did for "Cnf SSCM (SSSCM)", it stands for Confined, serving sentence, summary court martial".  This is from a Col. Folsom who was appearing at "The Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy".  The reference was in volume 8.

[John Butler]

14 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

The "hunter" photo was likely taken in early March 1957.

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/the-hunter-photo.html

Thanks Tracy,

I thought I remembered you had something different.  The caption on the photo says February, 1958.

[John Butler]

Smoking Guns!

Lee Oswald And Harvey Oswald And Their Rank Anomalies

 

 

From David Josephs Timeline for Oct. 24, 1956.  This is the day that Harvey Oswald enters the Marine Corps.

 

“While Harvey Oswald was at Boot Camp in San Diego, there are indications that Lee Oswald was also in the Marine Corps and assigned to the Marine Corps Air Facility (MCAF) at El Toro. Sergeant David Wallace Ransberger recalled that during his initial tour of duty at El Toro in 1956, he became acquainted with a Private First Class Oswald.”

 

On this day, Oct. 24, 1956 Harvey enters the Marine Corps with the rank description of Private/E1.  He won’t earn that rank until completing training.  Obviously, there was some kind of status for pay.  On Oct. 24, 1956, is at or on his way to boot camp at the training center for the Western U. S. at San Diego.  This explains why it took Harvey Oswald 8 months to become a PFC/E2. 

 

This is impossible situation for a single individual named Lee Harvey Oswald.  The situation is best explained by the Harvey and Lee theory.  It is one of the many “smoking guns” of the Harvey and Lee story. 

 

Why is this impossible?  Here is the Marine Corps policy on rank currently in force.  It is the same as that in 1956.

 

From the Internet:

“Upon graduating from basic training young Marines earn the rank of Private (E-1). Most enlisted Marines hold this rank for 6 months before they are promoted to Private First Class.

Moving up the Marine Corps Ranks: Company commanders have the authority to promote active duty enlisted Privates (E-1) to the rank of PFC (E-2) once they have completed six months of service. This promotion is virtually automatic for those who meet the basic promotion criteria.

Private First Class (PFC):  This was Lee Oswald’s rank in Oct. 1956 at El Toro.

Private first class is the second enlisted rank in the Marine Corps. The rank of PFC was established in 1917 to mirror a similar rank added to the Army structure.

Moving up the Marine Corps Ranks: Like the promotion to process to PFC, Marine Corps company commanders have the authority to promote active duty enlisted Marines to the rank of LCpl (E-3) when they have completed nine months, Time-in-Service, and eight months, Time-in-Grade.

Lance Corporal is the third enlisted rank (E-3) in the Marine Corps. The rank of Lance Corporal was permanently established in 1958, but the term dates back to the early 1800's.”

This rank structure suggests that Lee Oswald entered the Marine Corps at least 6-8 months before Harvey.  This would be sometime in May or April of 1956.  This could be as early as March of 1956 because Lee Oswald was discharged in March, 1959.  His term of enlistment was for 3 years.

May 1, 1957: Harvey Oswald is promoted to Private First Class/E2.

 

This date is more suitable for Harvey’s promotion to Private First Class/E2, since at this time he has been in the Corps for at least 6 months. October 24, 1956 to May 1, 1957 is about 8 months.  Lee Oswald is supposedly a PFC in the fall of 1956.   

 

Lee Oswald may have obtained an early out to go to a foreign college. On March 4th, 1959, Lee applies to the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland.  This application could have been used as an early out for school, but the term is for the following year.

 

There is more information that suggest a Part 2 to the “smoking gun” rank differences.

 

On March 9, 1959, Lee is promoted to Private 1st Class/E2 again.  Harvey’s discharge papers say he was a Private.  So, Lee is promoted 10 days before he leaves the service, but Harvey isn’t and remains a Private/E1 until he leaves the service.

 

On March 19, 1959 Lee Oswald discharged from the Maines with rank of PFC.  On September 11, 1959, Harvey is released from active duty in the Marine Corps.  His rank is Private/E1.

 

What other evidence is there that Lee Oswald entered military service at least 6 months before Harvey Oswald?  It could be 8 months due to becoming a Private/E1 after two months of training. 

 

Before getting into other information one needs to know where a new recruit will be trained.  New recruits living east of the Mississippi River will be sent Paris Island, SC.  New recruits living west of the Mississippi River will be sent to the recruit training center at San Diego, CA.

 

Why is this important?  It may suggest where Lee Oswald entered the Marine Corps and why his records are different from Harvey’s.  HSCA Vol. 9, pp 99-100, paragraph 444 has information on Lee Oswald’s attempt to enter the Marine Corps.  The information provided says that Marguerite Oswald contacted a long-time friend and attorney in New Orleans, Clem Sehrt. 

 

Lee had been pressuring Marguerite to falsify his birth certificate so that he could enter the Marines before his 17^th birthday.  She asked Sehrt if this was possible.  He refused to advise her, but indicated a lot of boys join the service before their legal entrance age.

 

This may refer to Lee’s failed attempt to enter the service at age 16.  Later he may tried again and succeeded.  Lee Oswald was connected to high level Mafia figures in New Orleans such as Carlos Marcello and his uncle, Dutz Murret.  Sehrt’s law firm represented Carlos Marcello.  These people, through Marguerite, could have been influential in getting Lee Oswald into the Marines at 16 years of age.  It is a possibility that Lee Oswald entered the Marines in New Orleans and was assigned to Paris Island, SC for training in the summer of 1956.

 

An early enlistment for Lee is in accord with his higher rank in the Marines than Harvey in the fall of 1956.  Why Paris Island, SC for training.  He may have enlisted in New Orleans and was sent to Paris Island.  There is a second piece of controversial evidence concerning the actor Steve Landesberg that suggests this may be so.

 

Steve Landesburg, an actor on the Barney Miller TV show, was claimed to have known Lee Harvey Oswald at Paris Island, SC in the summer of 1956.  This was the claim of Steve Landesberg (student)  going by the name of Jim Rizzuto. The FBI got wind of the story and picked up Steve Landesberg (student), alias Rizzuto.

 

Essentially, Rizzuto said that he met Steve L'eandes (Steven R. Landesberg (actor) and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp Lejune in the summer of 1956.  This is essentially the story he told the FBI.

After his Marine service he kept in touch with L’eandes by post card.  L’eandes sent post cards from Stockholm, Leningrad, and Moscow in 1960.  L’eandes was accompanied by Lee Harvey Oswald and Earl Perry in their journeys around Europe and Russia in 1960.  Rizzuto was told by L’eandes that Oswald was back in the states and had gone to Texas.

Rizzuto said that around October, 1961 L’eandes, Perry, and Lee Harvey Oswald had gotten back together and by December were creating disturbances at a Mark Lane rally.  In early 1962, L’eandes and Earl Perry were creating a violent disturbance at the American Jewish Congress.  He stated that Lee Oswald was taking pictures at the event.  He believed that L’eandes and Oswald lived together on East Eight Street.

Another controversial aspect of this story puts Lee Oswald in Russia in 1960.

Is this true?  Could be.

Edited February 22, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

Fascinating.  I never knew about the six month service required before a Marine could obtain the rank of PFC.     

On October 24, 1956 Harvey Oswald signed the Marine Corps enlistment contract and record before recruiting officer Captain R. K. Jones in Dallas. His enlistment term was for 3 years and he was assigned service number 1653230.

Sergeant David Wallace Ransberger recalled that during his initial tour of duty at El Toro in 1956, he became acquainted with a Private First Class Oswald. If Ransberger was correct, and the 6-month requirement was in effect then, I don’t see how this is possible.

It should be pointed out, though, that it might be a problem to put LEE Oswald in the USMC early enough to meet that 6 month requirement toward the end of 1956.  Lee Oswald’s activities in the second half of 1956 get pretty murky, just the period we’d like to understand.  I’ll try to study this some more.

What is interesting, though, is no USMC income is shown in the 1956 IRS 1040 tax form for “Lee Harvey Oswald”.  The reason is simple. The FBI fabricated the form to manipulate the true employment history of “Lee Harvey Oswald” that year, which otherwise would have indicated the employment of two different LHOs.

Marine Corps income could not be entered into the bogus 1040 form because the Department of the Navy didn’t verify the 1956-1959 income of “Lee Harvey Oswald” until September 15, 1964, long after the FBI fabricated the IRS form.

[John Butler]

Jim said, "Fascinating.  I never knew about the six month service required before a Marine could obtain the rank of PFC." 

Actually, it is 8 months.  There is some kind of rank less status period where you are not a Private for the 2 or so months in Basic Training.  When you graduate from training you become a Marine and a Private.  Otherwise you are out.

  This is shown in the time that Harvey changed from a Private/E1 to a Private First Class/E2.  Harvey's promotion to Private First Class mirrors this policy.  From Oct.24, 1956 to May 1, 1957 is 8 months for Harvey Oswald to be promoted to Private First Class/E2.

David's note in the Timeline has Lee at El Toro when Harvey enters the service in October.  If we apply this promotion policy to PFC Lee Oswald then he would have entered the service 8 months earlier or there abouts.  This would be in March, 1956.

Guess when Lee left the service after a 3 year enlistment?  You got it!.  March, 1959.

These details tie into the story of Marguerite seeking out her old time friend and Mafia lawyer, Clem Sehrt, in New Orleans for advice.  (This was something I didn't know and the reason I reposted this information) 

It is possible that Lee did not fail in his attempt to enter the Marine Corps early at age 16.  Maybe it was just said that he did.   Enlisting in New Orleans would put him at Paris Island, SC for training and keep his Marine Corps records separate from Harvey's.  This would not be a big deal for the CIA/ONI to arrange.

This also suggests that there maybe more to the Steve Landesburg (actor) and Lee Oswald story than most people credit. 

The problem with this is Lee Oswald is supposedly working for Tujaques in March, 1956. 

     

Edited February 23, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

Thank you for your work on this question about LEE Oswald’s PFC rank.  Before declaring victory, we’d better see how strong the primary evidence is backing up our conclusions.

Near the top of the Marine Corps and the Soviet Union page of HarveyandLee.net, John A. wrote:

In the fall of 1956, while HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were stationed at San Diego, LEE Oswald was at the Marine Corps Air Facility at El Toro, CA, 10 miles south of Camp Pendleton. It was in El Toro that Sergeant Wallace Ransberger first met Private First Class LEE Oswald, and a year later associated with him at Atsugi, Japan. Ransberger and LEE Oswald were assigned to the same unit and their duties were to furnish repair parts for vehicles and generators. In early 1957 Sergeant Donald Goodwin was assigned to Camp Pendleton and supervised a group of 20 men in the 5th Marine division, one of whom was radio communicator LEE Oswald, Private 1st class. As we shall see, it was LEE Oswald who was assigned to the jet base at El Toro, CA (HARVEY was assigned to Santa Ana, CA).

Since the FBI may have been unaware of the time required to grant a USMC recruit the rank of PFC, we may be safe in assuming its reports didn’t lie about this aspect of the two Oswalds’ lives.  Here’s the FBI report describing Sergeant Wallace Ransberger’s observations about Oswald.

Note the line above that states: “He recalled OSWALD as a Private or PFC who was “always alone.”  This is not as definitive as we would hope.

Below, however, is the FBI report on Sergeant Donald Goodwin.

According to the FBI, Goodwin recalls the period “in late 1956 or early 1957” and “recalls that one of the marines in this group was Private First Class OSWALD."  This is more like it, but I’d like to find more evidence that LEE held the rank of PFC before a 10/24/56 enlistment date would permit.

I’m not good at searching through the USMC records John A. has at Baylor University, but I’ll try to remember to ask him if he can recall any more about this next time we talk.  Thanks again for your work on this, and I hope you’ll keep digging! 

[David Josephs]

15 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I’m not good at searching through the USMC records John A. has at Baylor University, but I’ll try to remember to ask him if he can recall any more about this next time we talk.  Thanks again for your work on this, and I hope you’ll keep digging!

Folsom Exhibit has that info... haven’t seen anything diff at Baylor, yet.
 

 

[John Butler]

Jim,

Well, this is the first time I have seen this FBI doc. 

The information I had seen before states "PFC" and not "Private or Private First Class".  This makes this notion like many other things in the record iffy.

The second FBI doc is reported correctly in the information I have seen with "late 1956 or early 1957".

Oswald had a Marine MOS of 6400.  This describes that MOS:

The following examples are provided: direct support repair accomplished at the organizational maintenance activity (OMA) which is normally accomplished on aircraft, e.g., replacement of the radar antenna on the aircraft; indirect support-repair accomplished at the intermediate maintenance activity (IMA), which is normally accomplished off aircraft, e.g., radar system module repair, and repair/calibration of the radar support equipment.

Marines entering the OccFld receive MOS 6300 for OMA, and MOS 6400 for IMA, Basic Avionics Marine, and then progress through specific hard skill MOSs and ultimately are assigned MOS 6391, Avionics Maintenance Chief. Qualifications initially include technical proficiency in the repair of one or more electronic systems after completion of formal training.

This stupid editor won't let me delete some object below.  I'll continue in the next post.

[John Butler]

Marine Corps MOS 6741 is Aviation Electronics Operator.  Google seems to be playing games again and is not supplying this information.  Every search result is missing "operator".

The point here is that Pvt. or Pfc. Oswald in the service in late 1956 or early 1957 had basic training (two sections requiring about 4 months- in the Army this is called basic and advanced infantry training-  the marines are all infantry men plus other training) plus two MOS trainings including, aircraft maintenance and repair, and aviation electronics training at some point in time.

Basic training and at least one MOS training would more than likely be done before a duty assignment.  This could be up to maybe 6 months. 

IMO, this would still put Lee in the service before Harvey.   Harvey didn't get promoted to Pfc. until May 1, 1957.  IMO, this does not fit late 1956 or early 1957.

The Marines, from the records shown, were sticklers for time served.  The information saying Lee left the service in March, 1959 is correct.  I have not seen any information refuting this.  If so please come forward with it.  Don't show me Harvey leaving the service in Sept., 1959.

Lee's term of enlistment like Harvey's and everyone else volunteering in those days was for 3 years.  He would not be let out early except for extraordinary reasons such as a hardship discharge, attending school with 90 days of discharge, or mental problems, physically unfit for duty, or dishonorable discharge.  And, there is always the CIA/ONI connection to consider.   

Any FBI agent who had been in the Marine Corps would know of their policies on promotion.

I had speculated on the "Pvt. or Pfc" notion in an early post.  Nothing was said about that.  No corrections were made.

The balance of the information would say that Lee Oswald was in the service before Harvey.

Then there is the problem of Tujaques New Orleans in 1956.  David had Lee there from Jan. to Aug., 1956.

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

David,

I'm having a hard time reading this chart:

In those days a service member had 30 days leave per year.  I think this is true for the Marines as well as the Army which I am more familiar with concerning leave.

From Oct., 1956 to Oct. 1957 would be Harvey's first year in service.  The numbers are not making sense to me.  How many days leave did he have that year?