John Butler Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 I just don't see this happening in any service. There are strict rules about abusing lower ranked GIs in training or on regular duty, whether they are prisoners or not. Bullying by superior ranked personnel is monitored carefully. Never being in a military jail, I can't say what goes on inside a military prison. But, the 20 mile trip to Yokosuka would be in the eyes of the public. I don't see an individual being made to travel 20 miles without shoes or boots. Higher ranking military officers would not allow it. This would be a serious abuse and those enforcing it would have to pay for their behavior. Atsugi was under surveillance from all kinds of groups. At the time the certain factions of Japanese were looking for any excuse to put Americans out of Japan and Atsugi. Being marched from the jail without boots happened when? Could of been the night of the 13th to visit Lt. Trail or, the day of the 14th on he way to Yokosuka? One assumes the 14th without any real evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 26, 2020 Author Share Posted February 26, 2020 4 hours ago, John Butler said: I do believe that Harvey was not at Atsugi, but at Yokosuga ready to board the Skagit. There is no need for Harvey to get anywhere near Atsugi. It doesn't make sense to risk exposure. The evidence for Harvey at Atsugi is weak. That's an interesting point. Would there be any value to having Harvey join a legitimate unit before leaving Atsugi for Yokosuga? Don't forget, he's assuming the identity of a soldier who was clearly stationed at Atsugi. If the report is true, I assume he was not marched 20 miles in bare feet, just out of the brig. Quote Being marched from the jail without boots happened when? Could of been the night of the 13th to visit Lt. Trail or, the day of the 14th on he way to Yokosuka? One assumes the 14th without any real evidence. According to the report, it was "At the time their group was moving to Taiwan...." which was on the 14th (or I suppose, the 13th). Whether you assume the move started on the 13th or the 14th doesn't seem to make a big difference here, does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 On 2/24/2020 at 4:30 PM, John Butler said: October 6, 1958: Harvey Oswald does not join the radar unit at Atsugi, but is assigned to a Marine Squadron at Iwakuni, Japan. Meanwhile Lee is still at Atsugi so Harvey could not go there Great point about HARVEY being sent directly to Yokosuka.... yet I need to mention Oct 7 - Oct 13, 1958 CE1961 says Oswald was in the Hospital again... And then from Oct 14 to Nov 1 LEE Oswald is still in Atsugi being treated... then on Nov 2 LEE OSWALD leaves from YOKOSUKA for SF, USA If this is all LEE OSWALD with him winding up at El Toro... HARVEY could conceivably go straight to Santa Ana from Taiwan or Yokosuka. There is nothing I can find that placed HARVEY back in Atsugi before LEE leaves on Nov 2 The following is the only notation in his Marine Med record AFTER 10/31/58.... Here is my timeline... If HARVEY never makes it back to ATSUGI while LEE is finishing up his treatments, there is no conflict. HARVEY - the man who will be used to defect to Russia - travels from Yokosuka to Santa Ana mid October 1958. John/Jim - can you point me to anything that shows HARVEY in ATSUGI in October 1958? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 27, 2020 Author Share Posted February 27, 2020 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: John/Jim - can you point me to anything that shows HARVEY in ATSUGI in October 1958? No, John A. wrote that, “By the end of October, while Lee Oswald was still in Japan, Harvey Oswald arrived at the Marine Corps Air Facility (MACS-9) in Santa Ana, CA.” [H&L, 206] But sometime between Ping Tung and Santa Ana Harvey may have been at the Naval Air Base at Iwakuni, Japan. John wrote, “ While Lee Oswald was frequenting the Atsugi Hospital, Harvey Oswald was temporarily assigned to a Marine squadron at lwakuni, an air base 400 miles southwest of Tokyo. There are no Marine Corps records of such a transfer nor is such a transfer recorded on the Marine Corps Unit Diaries but Owen Dejanovich, who first met Harvey Oswald at radar school in Biloxi in May/June, 1957 saw and recognized him at lwakuni. Dejanovich thought that Oswald had grown bitter toward the Marines, and recalled seeing him occasionally talking to a Eurasian girl. After Oswald departed lwakuni he apparently returned to the US mainland.” [H&L, 205-206] There is a lot of controversy about Iwakuni. When the HSCA interviewed him in 1978, Richard Cyr allegedly said he didn’t recall if Oswald was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) David, I don't think I can answer your question with any real success because I don't have all the information necessary. "Great point about HARVEY being sent directly to Yokosuka.... yet I need to mention Oct 7 - Oct 13, 1958 CE1961 says Oswald was in the Hospital again... " Lee was still being treated for VD/UTI up to Oct. 24, 1958. The reason for this long treatment is he did not have VD. This can't be Harvey since he is on his way to Iwakuni on Oct. 6 and there is no mention there of any hospitalization. Either for VD/UTI or any mental disorder. Jim says, "But sometime between Ping Tung and Santa Ana Harvey may have been at the Naval Air Base at Iwakuni, Japan. John wrote, “ While Lee Oswald was frequenting the Atsugi Hospital, Harvey Oswald was temporarily assigned to a Marine squadron at lwakuni, an air base 400 miles southwest of Tokyo. There are no Marine Corps records of such a transfer nor is such a transfer recorded on the Marine Corps Unit Diaries but Owen Dejanovich, who first met Harvey Oswald at radar school in Biloxi in May/June, 1957 saw and recognized him at lwakuni. Dejanovich thought that Oswald had grown bitter toward the Marines, and recalled seeing him occasionally talking to a Eurasian girl. After Oswald departed lwakuni he apparently returned to the US mainland.” [H&L, 205-206] " The Dejanovich story says nothing about a hospitalization. He talks about Harvey being different from the Oswald he knew at Biloxi. There is no mention of a physical difference just a character and attitude change. Dejanovich recognized Harvey after about a years separation from Biloxi. The question that has always bother me is did he know Lee or Harvey at Biloxi. I have no way to answer that. But, it does have bearing on the night and subsequent day surrounding the 13th of Sept. Lee Oswald's unit at Atsugi was sent to Taiwan. Lee did not go from later records, particularly the one saying he was assigned to a rear unit at Atsugi on the 14th. Harvey is the Oswald on the Skagit. According to Trail's statements to the FBI agent Harvey was taken from the stockade, frog marched to Lt. Trail, and sent on his way to the Skagit to join his unit. This would be Lee Oswald's unit. Would anyone notice that this new Oswald (Harvey) was different from the old Oswald (Lee). I say someone would. These men in the radar unit were in close contact with each other for a long period of time. It is not recorded anywhere that someone did or would. Remember the lady in Dallas who spotted the difference between Harvey and Lee due to their short period of time appearance before her. I know they, the two Oswalds, had a similar appearance. But, that appearance was not identical requiring some time between when the witness saw an Oswald and the ID of Harvey as Lee. Lee Oswald was released from the stockade on Aug. 13, 1958. Did he go back in for something that allowed him to be released on the night of the 13th. Was he, Harvey, delivered from the US, court martialed and demoted, maybe under guard to the Atsugi brig so that he could be seen to be in the brig. It doesn't make sense. How would this acclimatize Harvey to Lee's unit at Atsugi and aboard the Skagit. There simply is not enough evidence to answer these questions. Did Trail's FBI man make up the shoeless story? Or, other elements? It still sounds like the kind of material to strength the Lone Nut Gunman theory. There is controversy about Oswald's time at Iwakuni. Some say he was not there at all. Some say he was there for a short period of time. He could have left for the US as early as the 6th or the 13th by ship in time to be at Santa Ana by the 29th of Oct. Or, did he leave by plane sometime during mid to late Oct. It was roughly a 17 hour trip from Japan to the US. Fort Lewis, Wa. to Yokohama I believe by commercial flight. This would make it a longer trip to Santa Ana, CA but, certainly could be done in one day. Perhaps. a little longer if by military flight. None of the questions can be answered because the evidence is to weak. Could you say intentionally or purposively? "According to the report, it was "At the time their group was moving to Taiwan...." which was on the 14th (or I suppose, the 13th). Whether you assume the move started on the 13th or the 14th doesn't seem to make a big difference here, does it?" It would not make much of a difference if the shoeless incident occurred at Atsugi at night on the 13th. However, it could make a big difference if this occurred on the way to Yokosuka in the daytime in the eyes of the public. Edited February 27, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 "None of the questions can be answered because the evidence is to weak. Could you say intentionally or purposively?" This statement concerns minor issues that folks could have a different view on in the roles of Lee Harvey Oswald (Harvey and Lee) during their foreign service. The main evidence is solid and in my opinion irrefutable. The main evidence for Harvey being on the USS Skagit on his way to Taiwan and his brief stay there while Lee is at Atsugi being treated for a VD/UTI disease is based upon actual Marine Corps records showing movement orders for Harvey to Taiwan and medical records showing Lee being treated at Atsugi during the same time period. The evidence for this is of "smoking gun" quality. This episode concerning where they were during the months of Sept. and Oct., 1958 is solid proof there was a Harvey and Lee portraying the role of Lee Harvey Oswald. Furthermore, this is just one of many "smoking gun" issues involving Harvey and Lee that can be traced back to their early childhood. I post this for the reader to know there is no real disagreement between the people who are currently discussing the foreign service of the two men who comprised the role of Lee Harvey Oswald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 27, 2020 Author Share Posted February 27, 2020 John, I certainly agree with your post directly above, but in reference to a couple of items in your previous post, I'd like to respond... 10 hours ago, John Butler said: Lee was still being treated for VD/UTI up to Oct. 24, 1958. The reason for this long treatment is he did not have VD. A “URETHRAL DISCHARGE” sure sounds like the clap to me. I remember being warned as a youth back in the stone age about the dangers of penicillin-resistant forms of gonorrhea and other VDs. Resistant strains of these things appear to have been a problem back then, and still are today. 10 hours ago, John Butler said: Lee Oswald's unit at Atsugi was sent to Taiwan. Lee did not go from later records, particularly the one saying he was assigned to a rear unit at Atsugi on the 14th. Harvey is the Oswald on the Skagit. According to Trail's statements to the FBI agent Harvey was taken from the stockade, frog marched to Lt. Trail, and sent on his way to the Skagit to join his unit. This would be Lee Oswald's unit. Would anyone notice that this new Oswald (Harvey) was different from the old Oswald (Lee). I say someone would. This is the type of argument often made by H&L critics, and I can only say that the people who planned this operation were not idiots and must have had a way to deal with the issue. Do we know how many marines were stationed at Atsugi in 1958? This, I assume, would be the total from which the 11 soldiers stationed at Ping Tung on 10/6/58 with HARVEY Oswald were selected. At any rate, just as you say in your second post above, the evidence that Harvey went to Taiwan is substantial. In addition to the USMC unit diaries listing him on the Skagit and in Ping Tung, in an interview Lt. Charles Rhodes said he served with Oswald in Taiwan, the 11/4/59 Chief of Naval Operations memo said Oswald had been in Taiwan, Harvey Oswald himself said he had been in Taiwan during interviews with Priscilla Johnson and Aline Mosby, and, also according to John A., some of Harvey’s photos allegedly collected by Dallas police showed military installations in Taiwan. (John said that because he had spent so much time in China, he could easily tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese characters, and several of the signs Harvey’s photos had Chinese characters.) The medical records for LEE Oswald at Atsugi during the same time frame speak for themselves, and the evidence for two Oswalds some 1400 miles apart was so overwhelming that the HSCA in rebuttal could only misrepresent the evidence. For example, the HSCA concluded that, “based upon a direct examination of Oswald’s unit diaries, as well as his own military records, it does not appear that he had spent any time in Taiwan.” This is what the HSCA called “direct examination?” Sheesh, the evidence of the unit diaries couldn’t be any clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) Jim, "A “URETHRAL DISCHARGE” sure sounds like the clap to me. I remember being warned as a youth back in the stone age about the dangers of penicillin-resistant forms of gonorrhea and other VDs. Resistant strains of these things appear to have been a problem back then, and still are today." I have personal experience with this. This type of UTI mimics having gonnorhea or some other VD that causes a discharge of infected material that is characteristic of VD. If left untreated this will cause bleeding, scarring, and eventual long term problems. Fortunately, for me the medics in Korea instantly recognized what was going on and I received treatment with Pyridium and Furadantin. These are sulfa drugs that treat viral infections. Gonnorhea is bacteriological disease that is most successfully treated with penicillin. Lee Oswald was eventually treated with Pyridium and that took care of his problems. This viral infection was determined to have come from eating local food or drinking the water, say in coffee or tea. Since GIs served in both Japan, Korea, and other places in the Orient. This was a problem around all military bases in the Orient. They might not have known this in Oswald's time of 1958. The first thing that took place as we GIs stepped off the plane in Korea was that the doctors took over with injections for various Korean diseases and with lectures on what to do to keep yourself from contracting some of these problems. The doctors said Korea was the worst place in the world for diseases. This comes from using human feces as fertilizer on their crops for thousands of years. A tour in Korea is jokingly called "The Honey Bucket Run" by old timers in the Army. The first admonition the doctors had was "Do not drink the water in Korea." Eat and drink only on the American bases. Some of us didn't listen and suffered accordingly. Now, to the sad part of this. Whenever your immune system is weak this particular problem comes back. I had by my count, not the evil VA's, 14 UTI infections between Dec., 1967 and May., 1969. In my old age with other diseases from Korea I have one of these about every year or two years. Modern drugs today take care of this with no problems. The last one of these UTIs for many years occurred during my first year in college in 1970. I went to my family doctor. I explained what was going on and what the treatment for this was. However, he insisted I had the clap. He said he was very familiar with and treated this all the time. He simply wouldn't listen and I was treated for the clap with penicillin which had absolutely no effect. A week later I convinced him after a lab report that the proper treatment for the problem was sulfa drugs, namely Pyridium and Furadantin. There is a possibility that Lee Oswald may have had both kinds of diseases, viral and bacteriological. Penicillin will take care of the VD, but do nothing for a viral infection. You can see this in the lengthy treatment and the eventual use of Pyridium and his discharge medically. This also says the medics didn't know what they were treating for a while. "This is the type of argument often made by H&L critics, and I can only say that the people who planned this operation were not idiots and must have had a way to deal with the issue. Do we know how many marines were stationed at Atsugi in 1958? This, I assume, would be the total from which the 11 soldiers stationed at Ping Tung on 10/6/58 with HARVEY Oswald were selected." I am by no means making a "lone nut" argument. Or, expressing any real disagreement with the Harvey and Lee story. These different views are iffy and should be treated as such. You are right with "the people who planned this operation were not idiots and must have had a way to deal with the issue." They, Harvey and Lee, were refining this role in various schools and since working at Tujaques and Michels in New Orleans in 1955, I believe. I see this as the first real test of Harvey and Lee with Tujaques being one floor above or below, not recalling which, the other. This went on for only a week or so and is partly the reason I see this as a test of roles. I believe one of their ways to carry this off was to act surly, uncommunicative, and walk away mumbling something. If you do this consistently people won't pay attention to you and just ignore your presence. I believe the Dejanovich story at Iwakuni is a good example of this as Dejanovich's friendship was rebuffed by Harvey. Edited February 27, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) "also according to John A., some of Harvey’s photos allegedly collected by Dallas police showed military installations in Taiwan. (John said that because he had spent so much time in China, he could easily tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese characters, and several of the signs Harvey’s photos had Chinese characters.)" The FBI had all of Harvey's possessions in their control by Nov. 23, 1963. They altered and mixed up whatever they could to confuse the trail of evidence. I believe a lot of the photos went to the FBI photo lab for alteration and some were farmed out to the CIA for alteration. Oswald's photos were mixed up with Michael Paine's Army photos just for this purpose. Michael Paine was allegedly assigned to an artillery unit. There are no photos of his showing any artillery equipment, just ships, tanks, and maybe planes. The closest thing showing Paine in the artillery is a photo of GIs with unit patch of the Division he served in Korea and Japan. As another example, you can't tell whether Oswald or the Paines was at a secret radar military base in Iceland. For the Paines it could be explained that their plane did a stopover there while on a European vacation. The oriental signs in some photo do appear to be Chinese and not Japanese. There are no signs in any photo showing the Korean language. I felt this was odd since Paine was supposed to have spent about a year in Korea during the Korean War. There are no war photos to back this up. There are no photos with artillery equipment. Edited February 27, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kowalski Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 Have uploaded the Blair papers to Internet Archive. The documents include information about the Gardos family and Blair family genealogy. https://archive.org/details/mss234fredandmarykeithblairpapersbox5folder232pages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 1 hour ago, John Kowalski said: Have uploaded the Blair papers to Internet Archive. The documents include information about the Gardos family and Blair family genealogy. https://archive.org/details/mss234fredandmarykeithblairpapersbox5folder232pages John K, Thanks for your Herculean efforts in finding and posting this information. It is very much appreciated and thanks again for your hard work. I scanned through these documents and have a number of concerns. I will re-read this information more carefully and get back to you on what I think. Thanks again. John K rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Butler Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 (edited) While researching JFK issues, I came across this. Just a general political comment for those who advocate socialism/communism. Here's a letter from Fred Blair or his sister Grace. Not sure which. Both were until they died a dedicated communist advocates. This letter is dated Feb., 1971. It gives a good description of the worker paradise established in Hungary in the decades after WWII. Fred or Grace lists the joys and benefits of communism once it is established in a country. It is a warning from the past. Go vote for Bernie if this is what you want. And, Edited February 27, 2020 by John Butler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted February 27, 2020 Author Share Posted February 27, 2020 3 hours ago, John Kowalski said: Have uploaded the Blair papers to Internet Archive. The documents include information about the Gardos family and Blair family genealogy. https://archive.org/details/mss234fredandmarykeithblairpapersbox5folder232pages Thanks so much, John. Even if we find nothing particularly interesting in these papers, this is a real service you have been doing for Harvey and Lee research! The important point in the current papers appears to be that as of 12/20/68 Fred Blair believed that Emile and Grace nee Blair Gardos (and their son John?) were living in Budapest. Blair did not specifically say John Gardos was with his parents in Budapest, but from other sources that appears to be the case. A short newspaper clipping dated 12/20/70 at the end also referred to “Grace Gardos of Europe.” The question now becomes, Is there any reference anywhere else in the Blair papers to John and Grace Gardos caring for a male child who was not their son John in New York City in the 1940s? If there are other files that you think might be worth checking, John, can we help you pay the copying costs in some way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kowalski Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 20 hours ago, John Butler said: Thanks again. John K rules. John B. Am always glad to make a contribution to this very important thread. Contacted Jack Dempsey's Tippit's ex-wife, Tina Tippit Brown on LinkedIn and also sent her a letter. She still lives in the same home that she and her husband lived in when they received the call. Still no response from her but will update everyone if she does respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kowalski Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 18 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said: Thanks so much, John. Even if we find nothing particularly interesting in these papers, this is a real service you have been doing for Harvey and Lee research! The important point in the current papers appears to be that as of 12/20/68 Fred Blair believed that Emile and Grace nee Blair Gardos (and their son John?) were living in Budapest. Blair did not specifically say John Gardos was with his parents in Budapest, but from other sources that appears to be the case. A short newspaper clipping dated 12/20/70 at the end also referred to “Grace Gardos of Europe.” The question now becomes, Is there any reference anywhere else in the Blair papers to John and Grace Gardos caring for a male child who was not their son John in New York City in the 1940s? If there are other files that you think might be worth checking, John, can we help you pay the copying costs in some way? Jim: Had another look at the Blair papers finding aid. Most of their documents pertain to their political activities. There is a lot of general correspondence and family correspondence that have not been examined but based on what we have already read, including the 100 pages copied by my DP contact, it is doubtful that we will find anything. However, if everyone wants to look at these files, I will ask the Wisconsin Historical Society to give me an estimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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