EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Hey John,

Take another close look at the actual towner image.  Now look at an overhead of Dealey Plaza...

Dal-Tex is in the background of the Towner image so the reflection would be back down Houston..  Elm would not be in that reflection
(Use the blue arrow thru the "=" sign and the white image of the limo under the "x".. that reflect to Towner's right... Elm should not be visible if the reflection is to the South...

Can we ID the things reflected with greater accuracy using images of Dealey?

David,

You have a keen eye, but greater sense of logic and reasoning.  Those reflected images should be Elm and Houston Streets.  If they are not then what streets could they be?

Your saying that the street to the west is not Elm Street since it should not be reflected where the p. limo is at that spot on Houston takes me to another of my biases.  I believe the Towner film is animation or a cartoon like presentation.  At least in its early part.

I've always thought something is going on in the intersection based on:

1.  The Zapruder Gap-  I believe the assassination occurred there and the imagery was transferred in the film to further down Elm.  That wouldn't be hard to do there were a lot of films being  taken in Dealey Plaza that didn't become known to anyone in the public.  Ex.  Military Photographers.  There was supposedly 50 out an about.  If one looks at the films and photos there are unidentified photographers in the intersection. 

2.  The Towner film's appearance:  Example- it does not show the door of the TSBD correctly with the right people standing in it.  It also has the "hit X" frame.

3.  Most of the other films, Hughes, Bell, and Martin show the TSBD in the distance with the p. limo generally blocked from view. 

4.  The wild swerving of the limo in the turn onto Elm.

5.  50+ witnesses said they heard shooting when the p. limo was in front of the TSBD.  This is what sold me on the notion that shooting occurred in front of the TSBD. 

So, if the streets reflected are not Elm and Houston what could they be?  I think I have run into this kind of situation before with reflections in the Altgens 5 photo.  But, I'll not sure since it has been a number of years since I have thought about that.

What I see is empty sidewalk or if not empty possibly people are standing back from the edge and not like it is shown in Zapruder and Dorman where people on Houston are standing just off the sidewalk or with one foot on.  Bushes seem to be growing on the street.  This notion doesn't match Zapruder and Dorman.  If that is Houston Street then where is the Arcade structure?  Just under where Jackie is sitting is what appears to be low lying hills or a ridge in the distance that makes one think the street is Elm.  But, one could see the same hills from Main or Commerce? 

This should be showing Elm and Houston.  Tina was on the SW corner of Elm and Houston and fairly close to Houston and the intersection.  The SW corner of Elm and Houston should be reflected here.

What's wrong with this line of thinking?  The limo has just entered the intersection and reflections should be like this maybe?

The reflection don't show the TSBD or down Elm Street nor do they show the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  Am I wrong when I say they don't show Houston also?  This is because of the people shown in Zapruder and Dorman on the sidewalk and street just down Houston from the SW corner of Elm and Houston.

Help! 

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

I think that's Houston in the reflection... if your red line is correct, you would not see anything to the LEFT of the limo, only to the right...  turn a mirror that way and see...

If Towner is the dot and the limo is the mirror we'd see the WEST side of Houston to the left/front of the limo, and to the south as you move to the right on the limo towards to the back of it.   

while the red line coming from the TSBD is correct, Towner wouldn't be able to see it since the mirrored surface - FROM HER VANTAGE POINT - only points to the WEST down Houston...

and back toward her but slightly to her right... she is not seen in the limo mirror - or just barely.. ELM is at the far LEFT of the image - the left front fender...

Yet if that really is the East side of Houston... where'd all the people go?

[John Butler]

David,

I think we are in agreement that something screwy is going on with these reflections.  Can't be Houston because of the lack of people.  But, if the frame containing these reflections is unaltered then I don't know what to make of it.  If that is not so and the frame is altered then it must be a reflection of another street from another time.  But, what?

It's been a while since I have thought about reflections.  At my age the memory goes quickly so I thought to review:

so,

This doesn't look right but, using the angle of the vehicle it might be right.  The reflection ray would need to be narrower to see the limo reflection in the frame?  I probably didn't get the two rays equal.  The normal would be right in the area that is reflected in the p. limo

maybe?

Just guessing here.  This angle of reflection would be narrower and might just approach what is in the frame reflection?

But, still there is missing people there.  Zapruder and Dorman do not show the same number of people on the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  But, that's another mystery.  There are other mysteries in the Towner film such as the doorways appearance as versus say, Altgens 6.  I would like to know where the alleged Billy Lovelady figure is?  And, all the other characters that get argued about in the doorway and on the steps.

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I think that's Houston in the reflection... if your red line is correct, you would not see anything to the LEFT of the limo, only to the right...  turn a mirror that way and see...

Your right.  I forgot the angle of reflection equals the angle of incidence and didn't draw the angles correctly.  Tina Turner to the limo is the angle of incidence and the equal but opposite angle is the angle of reflection.  In this case it should show the eastern side of the sidewalk on Houston plus the people there.  It doesn't and that is the problem.

Altered film has to be the right conclusion.  But, where is the p. limo for this reflection to be true?

     

Edited April 8, 2020 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Altered film has to be the right conclusion.  But, where is the p. limo for this reflection to be true?

Virtually Stopped at the corner just before turning back hard left to get thru Position A to what the FBI’s Shaneyfelt called z133

The “Truly” corner, as his description from testimony was crystal clear. 
{Edit... I jest John... idk yet what I’m really seeing}

Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. 
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? 
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. 
Mr. BELIN. All right  (that’ll be enough from u buddy...;)

Edited April 8, 2020 by David Josephs

[Jim Hargrove]

14 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

I think I found it on MF's JFK database.  It's a needle in a haystack, but clicking on the link below will take you to a group of three pages.  The actual document, remarkably dark and blurry, appears to be page 2 in this set.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=54631#relPageId=1&tab=page

P.S. I'm reasonably sure this is the page Malcolm Blunt is referencing.  I'll send it to John A. and see if it matches anything in his memory.

Malcolm Blunt has just confirmed that page 2 of the link above does appear to be the document he was examining.  He noted it was a clearer copy than he had in his files and added that the original Office of Security file search by Mrs. Stevens was not included in the Mary Ferrell group of three pages. He thought it might be "somewhere near this RIF...."

[John Kowalski]

16 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

I think I found it on MF's JFK database.  It's a needle in a haystack, but clicking on the link below will take you to a group of three pages.  The actual document, remarkably dark and blurry, appears to be page 2 in this set.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=54631#relPageId=1&tab=page

P.S. I'm reasonably sure this is the page Malcolm Blunt is referencing.  I'll send it to John A. and see if it matches anything in his memory.

Thanks Jim:

On page 2 can see what looks like January 19, 1953. This is the date  than Jon A. mentions. I would like to see his document when he gets back so that it can be compared to this one.

Do you know what 1048 and 1049 refer to?

On page 3 there is a reference to police records saying that L. Oswald signing something urging the charges be dropped against Sam Darcy 1/7/41. Looked up Darcy he was charged with perjury in 1941. Do you know what to make of this?

[David Josephs]

Speaking of reflections...

13 hours ago, John Butler said:

In this case it should show the eastern side of the sidewalk on Houston plus the people there.  It doesn't and that is the problem

While trying to figure out what the Towner reflection shows... can you ID the building above the reflecting pool columns in Altgens 6?

(Btw - there is a great reflection image in Altgens 5 showing Houston and people on the west side)

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

While trying to figure out what the Towner reflection shows... can you ID the building above the reflecting pool columns in Altgens 6?

(Btw - there is a great reflection image in Altgens 5 showing Houston and people on the west side)

I tried to figure out what the reflections were on the limo in Altgens 5 and 6 sometime back.  Not many cared for my interpretation so I give it up as a bad job.

I'm still in the same boat.  This is my current attempt.  And, I'm not real sure of this.  Altgens to the limo is the incident ray.  Altgens is to the front and down the street in the outside lane or center lane.  I used the outside lane.  And, then there is the opposite and equal ray which is the reflection ray or what you should see.  I don't think this is right but, if it is then what should be seen is the motorbike cops and the grassy field between Elm and Main Streets and perhaps the Arcade structure.  Instead we see other streets and buildings. 

There appears to be two buildings and a street marked.  This could be the two court houses, old and new.  Or, if mirrored it could be the TSBD and Dal-Tex.  One might see that as the Annex Building on Main and the courthouse across Houston.  Just guessing. 

None of these buildings should be showing in these reflections.  The TSBD and the Dal-Tex are on the other side of the street and to the rear.  The same with the two court houses.

I would think the arcade structure might show it the vehicle was at the SW corner of the TSBD.  Just a guess. 

 

[David Josephs]

Which building in DP is your #1 & #2?

[John Butler]

8 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Which building in DP is your #1 & #2?

I'm basically guessing what these building could be.  They might be somewhere out of Dealey Plaza?  Films were taken from Love Field to the end of Dealey Plaza.  If I drew the incident ray/reflected ray right then the area shown should have no buildings in it.  It probably would be better to use a map of Dealey Plaza with Altgens shown and the p. limo shown.  I won't argue if Z 255 position is used for Altgens 6.  I really think that the p limo was at the SW corner when Altgens was taken.  Few people agree with that. 

Building 1 and Building 2 look more like the two court houses, old and new.

Edited April 8, 2020 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

I'm basically guessing what these building could be.  They might be somewhere out of Dealey Plaza?  Films were taken from Love Field to the end of Dealey Plaza.  If I drew the incident ray/reflected ray right then the area shown should have no buildings in it.  It probably would be better to use a map of Dealey Plaza with Altgens shown and the p. limo shown.  I won't argue if Z 255 position is used for Altgens 6.  I really think that the p limo was at the SW corner when Altgens was taken.  Few people agree with that. 

Yeah, I'd have a tough time agreeing with that...

Here are some images that might help ID the reflections...

DJ

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Thanks Jim:

On page 2 can see what looks like January 19, 1953. This is the date  than Jon A. mentions. I would like to see his document when he gets back so that it can be compared to this one.

Do you know what 1048 and 1049 refer to?

On page 3 there is a reference to police records saying that L. Oswald signing something urging the charges be dropped against Sam Darcy 1/7/41. Looked up Darcy he was charged with perjury in 1941. Do you know what to make of this?

John,

I can’t answer even one of your questions, but I’d also like to see the page John A. obviously had in his collection.  He keeps hard copies of his files in one of his homes where he won’t be for a couple of months, I think. 

I’ll bet, though, that the page he saw and preserved privately is available online at Baylor University’s JFK – John Armstrong Collection.

As well as I know that database, though, I haven’t been able to find the page, at least so far.  There are a trainload of document files there.

[John Butler]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2020 at 10:48 AM, John Kowalski said:

Quote

John, when I checked the doc it says,Oswald,Mrs...so no forename......when I put the doc under ultra violet,the type written line seems to be something like HCUA Index ...January 19th 1953......it gives two reference numbers 1048,1049....and handwritten is 1940 info on Nazis ….I do not think this relates to Marguerite or LHO....the CIA file search is 12th October 1961.....and is on Marina Oswald...so I guess they just punched in the Oswald name,all traces and that's what came up.....this is an Office of Security (SRS) search by Margaret Stevens(her name is redacted but I know her handwriting)…..interestingly she did one search on Rosa Kuznetsova which turned up Augustin Trueba as her ex husband,Trueba was a CIA agent.....eventually the OS/SRS decided that it was a different Rosa Kuznetsova,it would have been a little embarrassing if one of the Intourist guides met by Oswald was previously married to a CIA agent.....best, Malcolm.....the RIF number fort= the document is 104-10300-10086

I think Stevens made a mistake in researching this.  She put this together on 10/12/61.  On page 2 she has a definite reference to 1940 info on Nazis.  This is before the time of the OSS or CIA.  So, this must be or could be information from the FBI. 

On page 3 some of our old friends show up.  The Daily Worker.  This is where the mistake is;

Per S. F. Police records have L. Oswald "signed?" "Lityn ?" 1/7/41 urging case against Sam Darcy be dropped.  Signers were "Worllers" of Town Forum"  Could be workers.

L. Oswald may be a confusion of Oswald Garrison Villard of NYC in the Sam Darcy petition:

and,

This could be much to do about nothing.  But, I don't think so:

1.  What was the CIA doing tracking Lee Oswald in 7/8/55 or making notes of in that year?  What is important to be noted there?  David J. has this for roughly that date

1955

8

1

HARVEY letter states he's been studying MARXISM for 15 months until request for Socialist Party info dated Oct 9 1956

SUMMER

Summer

NOLA

120 N. Telemachus

126 Exchange

NOLA

summer

Tujagues

School year 55-56

2.  What is the reference to 1940 info on Nazis about?  Page 2 may have been intentionally made hard to read to cover up whatever can be interpreted there.

3.  The Sam Darcy petition indicates concern with communists in 1940 in reference to Lee Or Harvey Oswald. 

4.  Items 2 and 3 must be from the FBI.  This was before the time of the OSS or CIA.  Could come from ONI? 

5.  So there is concern about Lee Harvey Oswald going back to 1940.  He was a year old then.  His father was dead.  What's the point?

6.  Harvey and Lee is the point. 

 

   

Edited April 9, 2020 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

I think Stevens made a mistake in researching this.  She put this together on 10/12/61.  On page 2 she has a definite reference to 1940 info on Nazis.  This is before the time of the OSS or CIA.  So, this must be or could be information from the FBI. 

On page 3 some of our old friends show up.  The Daily Worker.  This is where the mistake is;

Per S. F. Police records have L. Oswald "signed?" "Lityn ?" 1/7/41 urging case against Sam Darcy be dropped.  Signers were "Worllers" of Town Forum"  Could be workers.

L. Oswald may be a confusion of Oswald Garrison Villard of NYC in the Sam Darcy petition:

John B:

You are right, he was referring to Oswald Villard.

[John Kowalski]

13 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I can’t answer even one of your questions, but I’d also like to see the page John A. obviously had in his collection.  He keeps hard copies of his files in one of his homes where he won’t be for a couple of months, I think. 

I’ll bet, though, that the page he saw and preserved privately is available online at Baylor University’s JFK – John Armstrong Collection.

As well as I know that database, though, I haven’t been able to find the page, at least so far.  There are a trainload of document files there.

Jim:

Baylor has a new layout for John's collection, preferred the old one. It's an Office of Security file so next time I go there will find out if he has a file for this office.