EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I’m curious, though.  What makes you so certain the anonymous caller wasn’t referring to Emil Kardos and was, instead, talking about Emil Gardos?  As we have both noted, having “3 Emil Kardos/Gardos living within a 5 minute walk of each other” is just a stunning coincidence!  Speaking of coincidences….

If you look at the data for the young Emil Kardos you will see that he doesn't qualify for the Emil Kardos (Gardos) in the Tippit Teletype.  He does not get married until 1941 to Helen Kaminski.  He has no children and is living with his father in 1940.  He won't pickup a brother in law until he gets married. 

(new info Emil Kardos has a fiancée in 1940.  She is Dorothy Adelhofer.  There is no other info available.)

He's living in the right place (Yorkville).  But, we have no known communist associations at this point.  He is a machine shop laborer.  At this point that's about all we know.  I'm currently trying to find more info on these Kardos. 

Emil Gardos along with Louis Weinstock were mid to upper level communists leaders in NYC (Gardos may have been higher ranking due to being an alleged NKVD agent).  Emil Gardos has a brother in law, Fred Blair.  Fred Blair is an upper level communist and at one time a Director in the CPUSA.

The threesome, Gardos, Weinstock, and Blair may have been converted to FBI informants in the 1930s.  They would have to be members of the Oswald Project/ OSS / CIA  on loan from the FBI in order to raise Lee Harvey Oswald as indicated by the Tippit caller. 

Grace Gardos and son John were not allowed to return to the US.  If she did she would have come under a FBI counterintelligence action.  They didn't come back to the US because they couldn't.  They didn't come back to the US due to the threat of the FBI conducting some action against them.  This was 1966 and the idea was out their that Kennedy Assassination witnesses (including Oswald witnesses) were being executed by the government in large numbers. 

Grace Gardos knew what was going on whether her son John was a part of it or not.  She may have helped raise Harvey for a short period of time.  She would have to have known this being the wife of Emil Gardos, sister to Fred, and a reporter at the Daily Worker in contact with Louis Weinstock.  

Edited April 11, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks again for all your help on this.  I’ve downloaded the fourth edition(!) of Doppelganger to my Kindle gizmos and will start reading it right away.  First impression is that it doesn’t stray far from the conclusions of Harvey and Lee, but it looks like a much easier read.  I love the technique of telling the story from Harvey Oswald’s perspective, and it is great to see those links to my website!

I didn't like his format.  It seemed childish.  But, I have to say he made many of the connections that most Harvey and Lee folks do.  And, he mentions many of the situations that conflict with the WC official story.  After going back and reading more I thought he did ok.  I didn't find any other glaring mistakes.  There may be some there but I didn't look closely.  The one about Emil Kardos is simply wrong.  The key to understanding who Emil Gardos was is the brother in law.  Which Schwimmer didn't mention that much.

The father and son Emil Kardos did not make any waves to be recorded.  At least it is hard to find anything about them.

He uses the Judith Baker story for the story in NO.  I thought most folks don't care much for Judith Baker.  I read Me and Lee some years ago and found it to be fairly believable.  The only problem I had with the book was there was no photos of Me and Lee.  Harvey was a camera guy and took photos all the time.  Why no Judith?  Married guy doesn't want to leave a record of his infidelity?

Another problem I saw with the book was who was the Me and Lee Lee Oswald?  Was it Harvey or Lee Oswald that Judith consorted with?  Judith claimed she had facial recognition problems.  Would she be able to recognize the difference between Harvey and Lee.  Surely, there would be other ways to recognize the two.  But, what if she didn't?  So, was she double teamed as Marina Oswald was?  It is my opinion that Lee and Harvey were in NO at the same time moving in and out of the Lee Harvey Oswald role.   

   

Edited April 11, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

You make a good point about the brother-in-law, John.  If we've got the likely years for the encounter right, that does indeed point to Emil Gardos rather than Emil Kardos.  But it sure looks like there is something weird going on here.  As a first generation eastern European worker, the elder Emil Kardos could certainly fit the bill as a potential communist or communist sympathizer.  And both Gardos and Kardos had Hungarian roots, and both lived so close together in Yorkville.  This really smells weird.

As for Doppelganger, I've read about 50 pages so far and have found a number of minor as well fairly major mistakes, or at least what I believe to be mistakes, but I still like the easy-to-read approach and the fact that it is in its fourth edition!

Despite the efforts of a handful of people to slam it, the Harvey and Lee Menace® continues to grow.  Take a couple of YouTube videos based on Len Osanic interviews with John A.  

Captain Westbrook, officer Tippit and Oswald's double.

From the description by “MrChrillemannen:” “This video is based on combined segments from an interview with JFK researcher and author John Armstrong conducted by Len Osanic on Black Op Radio. John Armstrong presents facts and evidence which supports the likelihood of a Lee Harvey Oswald double used in the JFK assassination. This version of the interview is shortened and edited.”

According to Google, as of yesterday this video had been viewed 332,715 times.

Who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald?

“MrChrillemannen” described this as “An interview with author John Armstrong conducted by Len Osanic on Black Op Radio concerning the likelihood of a "Lee Harvey Oswald double" used in the JFK assassination. This version of the original interview has been shortened and somewhat edited.” I’d add that  graphics were added and the videos were placed on YouTube by “MrChrillemannen,” who has more than 32,000 YouTube subscribers.

Google yesterday indicated that  this video had 275,968 views.

Those are big numbers for JFK research!  Although usage stats became more difficult to determine after I set up both SSL and heirloom versions of HarveyandLee.net (http:// and https://), I’d estimate that the total number of visits to my website over the last few years is even higher.

Thanks to everyone for your continuing interest, despite the naysayers.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

There may be a second young Emil Kardos lurking out there.  Here is the marriage record for Emil Kardos and Helen Kaminski 1941:

And,

There is another record for a marriage license for Emil Kardos and Dorothy Adelhofer in 1941.  She was his fiancée.  There is a later record for Emil Kardos and wife Dorothy in 1955 living in New Rochelle, Ny.

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

11 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Despite the efforts of a handful of people to slam it, the Harvey and Lee Menace® continues to grow.  Take a couple of YouTube videos based on Len Osanic interviews with John A.  

I like the Harvey and Lee Menace notion. 

[John Kowalski]

On 4/10/2020 at 7:54 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Three other books based on “Harvey and Lee:”  

I have read Doppleganger and Mistaken Identity. Both of them don't add much to the Harvey and Lee story.

[John Butler]

21 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

As for Doppelganger, I've read about 50 pages so far and have found a number of minor as well fairly major mistakes, or at least what I believe to be mistakes, but I still like the easy-to-read approach and the fact that it is in its fourth edition!

As I indicated earlier I did not read this with any depth of thought.  I just scanned through and didn't see anything that caught my attention.

 

23 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

You make a good point about the brother-in-law, John.  If we've got the likely years for the encounter right, that does indeed point to Emil Gardos rather than Emil Kardos.  But it sure looks like there is something weird going on here.  As a first generation eastern European worker, the elder Emile Kardos could certainly fit the bill as a potential communist or communist sympathizer.  And both Gardos and Kardos had Hungarian roots, and both lived so close together in Yorkville.  This really smells weird.

Yeah.  Particularly, if there is a second young Emil Kardos in the neighborhood.  Or, is Emil Kardos a common name for Hungarians?  For instance, when I lived in Bowling Green Ky going to school there in the early 70s there were many Butlers in town.  There was 3 John Butlers there with 2 John R. Butlers.  Butler is a fairly common name.  At one time there were 65,000 Butler families in the US. 

Could Emil Kardos be the same kind of common name.  Don't know, just guessing.

I couldn't find anything on the Emil Kardos, father and son.  Other than the 1940 census and marriage records.  There is no way to say communists one way or the other.

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

I have read Doppleganger and Mistaken Identity. Both of them don't add much to the Harvey and Lee story.

John K,

Doppleganger is a pro-Harvey and Lee book.  Jim says there are minor and major errors according to Harvey and Lee.  But, most everyone makes errors that other folks note when dealing with Oswald and the Kennedy Assassination.  I don't think anyone has the whole story or the same story depending on their info.  I agree with Harvey and Lee not a 100% but, say like 99.5%.  I do have some reservations on some things that I have mentioned from time to time.  An example would be I believe Harvey and Lee were both in Russia at one time.  This idea is frowned upon citing data with Lee being in Florida, Cuba, New York, and New Orleans while Harvey was in Russia.  In one of the Russian photos I believe it is Lee Marina is hugging rather than Harvey.

Another example is the radar school photo.  That graduation photo must be of Harvey.  But, I believe it is not.  The photo is of Lee altered to be Harvey since Harvey has to be the one seen.  John Armstrong makes an excellent case for Harvey Oswald being at the radar school a week after Lee.  Lee is there onn May 4th and Harvey on May 13th.  So, they were both there.  Both would have graduation photos.  Lee's photo would be destroyed and Harvey's kept for the record.  I don't know why Lee's photo was the one used and had to be used in an altered form.  This conclusion of mine is disputed by others. 

But, in any graduation photo we must see Harvey and no one else.

John, I think you are right.  Jim says it is an easier format to read and that may be its biggest attraction.  I think he makes the WC conflicts easier to understand, but that's just me.  Schwimmer didn't get the Gardos/Kardos information right.  Others have made the same mistake.  It was not until we got on the case that the correct information became available.

Edited April 11, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

I have read Doppleganger and Mistaken Identity. Both of them don't add much to the Harvey and Lee story.

I didn’t know you had read Mistaken Identity.  The author sent it to me last year and I read much of it as well.  What drove me crazy was that the author said he had evidence from U.S. Census data that the two Oswalds were actually second cousins.  For the life of me, I didn’t see, or to say it more charitably, didn't understand what he said was his evidence.

I sent the book to a well-known journalist very interested in the Kennedy case in the hopes that he would take a look at it and publish his opinion.  So far, I haven’t seen anything at his website.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

John, I think you are right.  Jim says it is an easier format to read and that may be its biggest attraction.  I think he makes the WC conflicts easier to understand, but that's just me.  Schwimmer didn't get the Gardos/Kardos information right.  Others have made the same mistake.  It was not until we got on the case that the correct information became available.

Those are pretty much my thoughts, John.  How are we to expect a normal person, even with a modest interest in the Kennedy assassination, to read a 1,000+ page book (not counting the graphics on the CD)?  I’ve spent years hoping someone could make a shorter, easier-to-grasp but still reasonably complete treatment of H&L.

As you say, no one is going to agree on all the details about such a complex subject, but I still have hopes that I can recommend Doppelganger to people interested in the two Oswalds.

[John Butler]

20 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Those are pretty much my thoughts, John.  How are we to expect a normal person, even with a modest interest in the Kennedy assassination, to read a 1,000+ page book (not counting the graphics on the CD)?  I’ve spent years hoping someone could make a shorter, easier-to-grasp but still reasonably complete treatment of H&L.

As you say, no one is going to agree on all the details about such a complex subject, but I still have hopes that I can recommend Doppelganger to people interested in the two Oswalds.

Jim,

Even though I don't think much of the format of Doppelganger, it is a good book.  It is one that can be recommended as an easier read.  Schwimmer does cover the major points and conflicts.  You noted earlier that you had reservations on certain minor and major points.  That's not a problem.  People see thinks differently and the subject is huge and complex.  For every concept in Harvey and Lee there is a detractor who says nonsense.  Superficially, some make sense.  It's like the Warren Commission.  If you accept their facts without further digging then Oswald killed Kennedy.  OBTW, you have to ignore all of the conflicts and inconstancies in the WC report also.

As I said I only noted one problem with the book's information.  I think this problem arises from the way most people have little experience with and know how genealogy research works.  I scanned through the rest and didn't see anything that jumped out.  His use of Judith Baker for the New Orleans story might offend some from what I have read in this forum.  It didn't bother me.

The book would be good for someone who has just developed an interest in the Kennedy Assassination.  For one who knows little about the subject it is a good start that will eventually take you to more complex information such as Harvey and Lee.  It fits your recommendation.  

Edited April 12, 2020 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

Jim:

Went to Amazon to read some reviews about "The JFK Assassination and the Uncensored Story of the Two Oswalds."

Most of them are favourable and one of them said that it was easier to read than Harvey and Lee. Looks like this one could be the one that presents John's story in a format that is easier to read and understand. There was one negative comment about the author's digressions into other subjects like the New World Order etc. that according to the reviewer taints the rest of the serious JFK research community.

 

 

[John Kowalski]

22 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I didn’t know you had read Mistaken Identity.  The author sent it to me last year and I read much of it as well.  What drove me crazy was that the author said he had evidence from U.S. Census data that the two Oswalds were actually second cousins.  For the life of me, I didn’t see, or to say it more charitably, didn't understand what he said was his evidence.

There are a number of problems with the book. The first one is Torbitt. Author references him a lot in his book. As I mentioned in earlier posts and on other threads about him, anything written by Torbitt can't be relied on. The other problem is that his theory mistaken identity does not hold up very well.

[John Kowalski]

On 4/11/2020 at 9:54 AM, John Butler said:

There may be a second young Emil Kardos lurking out there.  Here is the marriage record for Emil Kardos and Helen Kaminski 1941:

Does this mean that we were looking at the wrong family? This makes sense because there could be other families with the same name in Yorkville or somewhere nearby.

 

[John Butler]

8 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

Went to Amazon to read some reviews about "The JFK Assassination and the Uncensored Story of the Two Oswalds."

 

Most of them are favourable and one of them said that it was easier to read than Harvey and Lee. Looks like this one could be the one that presents John's story in a format that is easier to read and understand. There was one negative comment about the author's digressions into other subjects like the New World Order etc. that according to the reviewer taints the rest of the serious JFK research community.

 

 

Thanks for bringing this up.  I thought I looked on Amazon and the price was something like $45.  But, looking at it again the price was $2.43 so I bought a copy.

Jim recommended 3 books and so far I have found Doppelganger a good choice.  I'll check out this and post later.