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EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)


Jim Hargrove
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I'll go ahead and post it here in Excel form... if people want a pdf version just, ask.  Not everyone has/uses Excel...
we all have acrobat reader...

18 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

What sources of information would be available for Harvey for the period 1948-1952?

I followed on John's lead by going to the respective school districts online and finding the records they kept...

 

I found the TARRANT county pupil population listed by school district....  that would be very telling and boy was it:
Other telling info comes from John Pic...

106273025_JOHNPICMILITARYRECORDSHOWINGALLADDRESSESLIVED-NOTHINGFOR464748-smaller.thumb.jpg.8cd1cebd196aa17c9d0620efc1153d8e.jpg

AND Robert....  These are all 1946 dates...  

image.png.902bbcaf76c81ca598aa50b32cbbdeea.png

 

 

There is no listing of a LEE OSWALD attending school in the MASTER TARRANT County books for 1945 thru 1955

'47-'48 shows NANCY LEE and HARVEY OSWALD ... in Sept 1947 Marge was still married to Ekdahl

Mr. JENNER - He entered in September 19, 1946, and continued to January 23, 1947, old Covington Grammar School

In '48-'49 NANCY LEE with a birth date 1 day after Lee, with Harvey using the 7-9-39 bdate supposedly to get into 1st grade, yet in 1947 he would artificially be 9 years old and in 3rd grade
not 1st.  Doesn't this suggest it was HARVEY at San Saba enrolled in BENBROOK?

And no... no one has the first clue as to who NANCY LEE was/is.  btw - in '48-'49 ROBERT entered 9th grade at Stripling Jr High  YET, there is no ROBERT listed until 1949-50.

FWIW - the only year the TARRANT BOOKS do not offer is 1946-1947... there is a 1944-46 book and then a 1947-48...  Could that be the long arm of the FBI protecting itself ala Stripling??

1667833118_NancyLeeandHARVEYOSWALDlivingat15058thFtWorthgotoschoolin1947-NotBenbrookSchool.jpg.0ed6673b2e580e542b2756e587cd066c.jpg

 

'49-'50  HARVEY has his birth day back... almost

 

1230160427_49-50schoolyearshowsHARVEYOSWALDwithMargeyetROBERTOSWALDwithROBERTOSWALDfather.thumb.jpg.d63b4ff92aecd2b17c235a1fa856003c.jpg

'50-'51

 

1322732983_50-51schoolyear-stillMargeEKDAHL-notOswaldandTEDLOSWALTisborndaybeforeRobert.thumb.jpg.c3f28e1435b27e373b57cd1628dbf71d.jpg

 

'51-'52...

1213806676_51-52HARVEYOSWALDwithMargeEkdahl-cropped.jpg.c8cf2ed07e28b529a537f180bbcd8340.jpg

 

This shows that in Jan 1947 when Lee was 7 in October was supposedly let into school with the July bdate...  
He's SUPPOSED to be at the BENBROOK School, in Tarrant county...  9-9-47 would be the start of 2nd Grade, never attending a full year of 1st. yet promoted to 2nd grade none the less

 

Address on enrollment card is "Worth Hotel" AND 7408 Ewing which is not bought until 1948.  MO lists LEE's Bday as July 9, 1939 to get into school (Harvey's Bdate above)

This info is from an FBI report as footnote to p674 of the WCR.  CE1874 mentions O.H. STOWE superintendent TARRANT county schools claiming they had an enrollment card for October 31, 1945 with July 9 1938 as Lee's Bday.  The address was listed as ROUTE 5 BOX 567 
(WCD897 p461)

This shows that 2nd grade starting 9-9-47 was removed/changed to 3-19-48.... date of withdrawal is 3-18-47... Sept-March and no grades?
It's as if nothing happened ...  present 120 of the 180 school days but at LILY B CLAYTON, not GEORGE CLARK

Bigger Question is why this card is different from the completed Cumulative record...

1695874288_OswaldReportCardLilyBClaytonandGeorgeClark1-27and9-91947.thumb.jpg.8bf32e6723560df00e5c08b68370e9c1.jpg

Can anyone explain why a PERM RECORD would have an "early" version" and a "final" version ?  The one above already lists 2 different schools so it's not
specifically a "LILY B CLAYTON card:  Also notice that 3300 WILLING is not listed... which was why he changed from CLAYTON to CLARK elementary...

Sure wish I knew who wrote the handwritten things on this card

716849641_FtWorthElementarySchoolCumulativerecordwithschoolnames-starts1-27-47.jpg.7673f432fac81d30161b00ae68ad0aa3.jpg

 

And an FBI report re: Marge's addresses:  like us - the FBI is stumped from 1942 - 1954.  After 1954 there are addresses for Marge that directly contradict where she was and where she was working...

 

image.png.19de16e7c0be40e26cd120231598ab10.png

 

image.png.502e169211e08705f6dd7013b0b0e868.png

 

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3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

I wasn’t sure how to react to this because I always thought this should be about the evidence and not the researchers, but you know in what high regard I hold john Armstrong’s work.  I’m really not a researcher, at least not beyond a few very limited matters I checked into at John’s suggestion.  I’ve always thought John’s work, for which he took ten years out of his normally lucrative businesses in the oil and custom home building businesses, was utterly heroic.

Jim,

You are right in your assessment, but you are a vital part of the Harvey and Lee story.  Correct me if I am wrong, but Mr. Armstrong is aging and perhaps appears less interested than in prior times.  Age does that to people. 

You are the person I see keeping the ideas alive.  You and David Josephs are major supporters of this idea.  You deserve recognition.  My list of folks over in the other thread just started as a way to recognize other praiseworthy people's work.  It is evolving into something that might be good for newbies and for us old timers who occasionally have a memory lapse or two.

I put this on this thread, it has nothing to do with usual business here, but I wanted to check what I wrote about you and John is acceptable or needs to be changed.

 

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The kind words are appreciated, John, but I can’t nominate myself for a list of JFK research heroes.  I do believe John A. belongs there, though.  BTW, he’s only a decade or so older than me and still has lots of energy.  He’s been updating the Tippit murder page on our website for the last two days.   It's hard to keep up with his work, even though he's such an Old-Timer.

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21 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I'll go ahead and post it here in Excel form... if people want a pdf version just, ask.  Not everyone has/uses Excel...
we all have acrobat reader...

I followed on John's lead by going to the respective school districts online and finding the records they kept...

I found the TARRANT county pupil population listed by school district....  that would be very telling and boy was it:
Other telling info comes from John Pic...

106273025_JOHNPICMILITARYRECORDSHOWINGALLADDRESSESLIVED-NOTHINGFOR464748-smaller.thumb.jpg.8cd1cebd196aa17c9d0620efc1153d8e.jpg

AND Robert....  These are all 1946 dates...  

image.png.902bbcaf76c81ca598aa50b32cbbdeea.png

[ . . . . ]

David,

Thanks much for all this updated source material on the early years of H&L.  A few questions....

Little doubt that Lee was living on 8th Ave. in Fort Worth in late 1947 while Harvey was at San Saba in Benbrook, but it looks like on your latest timeline you’ve updated Harvey’s location info.  John A’s educated guess is that Harvey and Mysterious Marge® moved from San Saba to Thomas Place in Fort Worth around the end of 1947, but as far as I know, there is no real evidence for that.  Have you found some or are you following JA’s speculation?

But also during 1948, where does 4029 Byers as a Harvey location come from?  I searched H&L (the full book) and found no reference to it.  Did I miss it in your post?

Quote

In '48-'49 NANCY LEE with a birth date 1 day after Lee, with Harvey using the 7-9-39 bdate supposedly to get into 1st grade, yet in 1947 he would artificially be 9 years old and in 3rd grade not 1st.  Doesn't this suggest it was HARVEY at San Saba enrolled in BENBROOK?

Sheesh!  I’m going to write a bad song called "The Ballad of Harvey and Nancy Lee."  This is so strange.  Harvey WAS enrolled at Benbrook in 1947, don't you agree?  But in 1948 he SHOULD be at a Fort Worth school, right?

More question to come (sorry).

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Jim,

Glad to hear that about Mr. Armstrong.  Don't worrying about nominating yourself.  I have already done that and since it is my list you have to stay on it.

This list is evolving and turning out to be better than what I thought.  More and More people are participating and  suggesting folks.  I just hope I don't get in trouble doing info cutting and pasting from the internet. 

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20 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

In '48-'49 NANCY LEE with a birth date 1 day after Lee, with Harvey using the 7-9-39 bdate supposedly to get into 1st grade, yet in 1947 he would artificially be 9 years old and in 3rd grade not 1st.  Doesn't this suggest it was HARVEY at San Saba enrolled in BENBROOK?

Does this mean Harvey is at the same school as Nancy Lee as the situation was in 1947-48?

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11 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Does this mean Harvey is at the same school as Nancy Lee as the situation was in 1947-48?

Not necessarily the same school... just in the Ft Worth school district.

We have no idea who 7 year old NANCY was.... or why her Bday is listed as 10-19-39....  yet living at the same address one would assume they were both at CLAYTON or CLARK...

And there is simply no way he enters 1st grade in January 1947... it would be 1945 at Benbrook, but since that was HARVEY... WCR records start with CLAYTON...

Question for anyone...  down below shows 1873-B/C..etc. these are images of the CUMULATIVE RECORD...  how is it possible to have the image of his CUMULATIVE RECORD with only 1st Grade, or only 1st and when by 1963 the only record 2nd Grade.... of that card should be the fully completed one... here:

Even 1st grade's "LAWRENCE" goes from SCRIPT on 1873B, below, to block letters here on what should be the same record...

Also, the 2nd and 3rd lines only has "3-18-48 destination #18".. whereas 1873-C skips line 1 and has dates and grades on lines 2 and 3...

:huh:

716849641_FtWorthElementarySchoolCumulativerecordwithschoolnames-starts1-27-47.jpg.7673f432fac81d30161b00ae68ad0aa3.jpg

A child should only have 1 Cumulative record for a school district....  and as usual, the FBI provides only copies...  that 1873-B is Different from C seems to make it obvious the FBI created these records for they should not exist as they were on March 18, 1948...

Those first 2 cards are completely different from each other....

img_1139_687_300.png

 

img_1139_688_300.png

 

img_1139_689_300.png

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7 hours ago, John Butler said:

Here's something that folks might want to think about. 

106273025-JOHNPICMILITARYRECORDSHOWINGAL

This means John Pic, Lee Oswald, Harvey Oswald, and Marylin Murret were in Japan at the same time.  I don't recall any info on this.  They were very close to each other in location, but nowhere have I read that John Pic and the doubles got together for a beer or homey reunion.  How close?  18 miles.  Harvey was farther away.  Maybe a wholly owned family spy business.

John,

You've completely lost me here.  Lee and Harvey were both in Japan in 1958 for just a day or two before Harvey left for Taiwan, and then a little longer after he returned, but are you saying the chart above proves, or helps to prove, that both John Pic and Marylin Murret were there are the same time?  That's hard to believe.  

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4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

You've completely lost me here.  Lee and Harvey were both in Japan in 1958 for just a day or two before Harvey left for Taiwan, and then a little longer after he returned, but are you saying the chart above proves, or helps to prove, that both John Pic and Marylin Murret were there are the same time?  That's hard to believe.  

There is inaccurate information in that post.  It has been deleted.  Thanks for picking up on that.  Marylin Murret doesn't show up in Japan until the fall of 1959 if you believe John Pic.  I was thinking the fall of 1958 about early Oct.  However, in John Pic and Marilyn Murret's testimonies there are a few inconsistencies. 

In her WC testimony, Liebeller does not question her about her stay in Japan.  She mentions she was in Japan and other places. 

Liebeller ignores that.  She also said "Miss MURRET. No; I was away when he left, and I didn't even know he left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and I saw his brother, John."

Question is how did Marilyn know that about Oswald's defection when she visited John Pic in Oct. or Nov. 1959?  Or, as he says early Nov. when she had just come from a stay in Australia.   

John Pick does speak of Marylin in Japan, but does so in a confused manner.

Mr. PIC - Sir, in the testimony of Marilyn Murret, I am going to make a statement.
Mr. JENNER - What testimony of Marilyn Murret?

Mr. PIC - This is what I am going to tell you that prior to his defection she knew he was in Europe and everywhere that I read in here, no one knew he was going to Europe. She informed me before anyone knew he defected that he was in Europe.
Mr. JENNER - Who informed you?
Mr. PIC - Marilyn Murret in Japan. She was in Japan. She visited with me.

Mr. JENNER - All right. I will go into that right after dinner.
Mr. PIC - All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER - We will suspend until 7:30. (Whereupon, at 6:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

The proceeding was reconvened at 7:55 p.m.
Mr. JENNER - When we adjourned for dinner you were telling us the incident in August, I believe it was 1958, when you visited your mother and your brother on your way to California on your assignment to Japan.

 

(If John Pic is on his way to Japan in about August, 1958 what in the world took over a year,  about 14 months, to get there.  Did Liebeller make a mistake?  If this mistake was actually August, 1959 that doesn't make sense either.)

Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Would you read me the last answer of the witness, please?
(The answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)
Mr. JENNER - Marilyn Murret is your cousin?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - One of the children of Charles and Lillian Murret?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - By the way, did your wife and children accompany you to Japan?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And you arrived in Japan about when?
Mr. PIC - 10 November 1958, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Were you aware before you left for Japan that Marilyn Murret, was in Japan?
Mr. PIC - She was not in Japan then, sir.
Mr. JENNER - All right. You arrived in Japan and went over there sometime while you were in Japan. By the way, first where were you stationed?
Mr. PIC - My military address was U.S.A.F. Hospital, Tachikawa, APO 323, San Francisco, Calif.
Mr. JENNER - You heard from or saw Marilyn Murret after you got there?
Mr. PIC - Right. In approximately October-November, early November, the end of October 1959 she called me up at the hospital. and it bad been years since I had seen her, and she told me she had come from Australia. She was traveling around the world, and I invited her out to the house the next weekend.
She couldn't come during the week. She was teaching school in Japan and as a freelance teacher working for no agency, just doing this to earn her own traveling money. So she visited us on a Sunday, I believe.

(Did she just come from Australia or was she in Japan for some time teaching.  Which will it be Mr. Pic?)


We talked about the family and everything. She talked about Lee, about how proud he was to be in the Marine Corps, and he really put on a big show about this.
Mr. JENNER - How did she know that, did she reveal?

Mr. PIC - She had seen him,'evidently, when he was first in the Marine Corps. She described him in uniform, and--
Mr. JENNER - You had the impression she had actually seen him in Japan?
Mr. PIC - No; she wasn't in Japan the same time he was. This is a year after I am in Japan, sir, before I had seen her.
Mr. JENNER - I see.

 

Looks like John Pic had not really learned his lines.  He appears confused on some issues.  I may have been correct in my assumption but the witness testimony of Marilyn Murret and John Pic are too confused to say that confidently.

"Dejanovich relates that Oswald kept company with a round-eyed Russian Girl.  This accompanying a round-eyed Russian Girl occurred for a short period of time.  Romance or Spying?  Was Harvey at Iwakuni more that a week?  Was this time enough for romance?  Could this have been his cousin, Marilyn Murret, who was in Japan at the same time?"

 

This inaccurate speculation of mine is where I went off the beaten trail.

Edited by John Butler
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David,

I am checking out a person Nan, or Nanny, (Marilyn Murret referred to her as Nanny) or Nancy Winfrey birth listed variously as 1938 or 1939.  She is the daughter of Mancy Winfrey who was Mancy Claverie (Aminthe) the sister of Marguerite Oswald.  They lived in Frankfort, KY.  Marilyn Murret's WC testimony is the source of Mancy Winfrey living in Frankfort, Ky.  Her daughter Nancy is going to school there in 1954-1956.

This is as close to Nancy Oswald as I have come. 

And, that's it.  There is nothing after 1956.

Edited by John Butler
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13 hours ago, John Butler said:

Looks like John Pic had not really learned his lines.  He appears confused on some issues.  I may have been correct in my assumption but the witness testimony of Marilyn Murret and John Pic are too confused to say that confidently.

"Dejanovich relates that Oswald kept company with a round-eyed Russian Girl.  This accompanying a round-eyed Russian Girl occurred for a short period of time.  Romance or Spying?  Was Harvey at Iwakuni more that a week?  Was this time enough for romance?  Could this have been his cousin, Marilyn Murret, who was in Japan at the same time?"

 

This inaccurate speculation of mine is where I went off the beaten trail.

Appreciate the clarification, John.  There are so many details to remember analyzing the H&L evidence that it is almost impossible not to make mistakes.  I did like your point, though, in the deleted post about spying sometimes being a family business.  I ran across an article about that some years ago, but couldn’t find it again just now.

While we’re busy clearing a few things up, I couldn’t help but joke about John A’s age when you brought it up earlier.  He’s actually a couple of years younger than I am.

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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

While we’re busy clearing a few things up, I couldn’t help but joke about John A’s age when you brought it up earlier.  He’s actually a couple of years younger than I am.

I guess I really screwed the pooch on that one.  I really don't like that expression, but it is a favorite one in my family. 

I just thought that he was older and in a more retired status.  Sorry.  I have been doing some genealogy work on someone who might be Nancy Oswald.  I didn't get anywhere and then posted that to David.  However, the wife took over and there is now more information I can post.

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Jim and David,

Best Candidate For Nancy Oswald:  Mancy Winfrey formerly Aminthe Claverie and dauther Nanny or Nancy

Let’s assume that the Nancy Oswald and Lee Oswald spoken of in the school records of the Lily Clayton Elementary School in the 1947-1948 school year in Fort Worth, TX were actually related.  This is an assumption, but one that is not far-fetched.

Let’s assume that for a short period of time, perhaps two years, Marquerite Ekdahl/Oswald took care of the girl called Nancy Oswald, a niece of Marguerite.  This girl, if this assumption is true, would be Nanna, Nannie, or Nancy Winfrey as identified by Marilyn Murret in her WC testimony.  Her mother would be Aminthe or Mancy Claverie Winfrey who was the sister of Marguerite. 

There are further assumptions that need to be made concerning the birthday of Nancy Winfrey.  Her birthday changes form record to record variously listed as 1938, 1939, and 1940.  The 1940 Census Record gives an age of 3/12 months or a rough estimate of January, 1940. 

The Public Record Index for 1950-1993 lists Nancy M. Sweeney as being born on Dec. 30, 1939.  This date is in accord with the 1940 Census Record for Nancy Winfrey.  Nancy Moore Winfrey married Edward Louis Sweeney on June 10, 1963.  Nannie or Nancy Winfrey is Nancy M. Sweeney.  The middle name Moore comes from her father Andrew Jackson Winfrey.  Moore was his mother’s name which was Nanny Moore Fawbush.  Nancy was probably called Nanny after her grandmother.

What has to be assumed here is that Marguerite Ekdahl/Oswald perhaps for matters of convenience in entering her into school changed her name and birth date.  She was related, but perhaps she couldn’t prove guardianship so listed her as a daughter.  But, that would make the Oct. 18 birthday for Lee and Oct. 19 birthday for Nancy really weird.

So, how does this come about.  The following genealogy records can be put together for the Claverie sisters.   

Marguerite Oswald nee Claverie had 3 sisters.  Pearl Claverie Whittaker, Lillian Claverie Murret, and Aminthe (Mancy) Claverie Winfrey.  There were two brothers, but not significant for this discussion.  John died in Dec. 10, 1923 and Charles died in July 10, 1923.

It is Aminthe or Mancy as she is sometimes referred to from time to time that is important for this record.

Aminthe Jeanne Claverie was born after the 1910 Census probably during 1911 as the 1920 Census has her as 9 years old.  In the 1920 Census she is living with Paul and Marie Voitier.  Marie Voitier was the aunt of Aminthe.  Her parents were Marcel Claverie and Jeanne Cazebat. Her mother was the source of her middle name Jeanne.

aminthe-mancy-claverie-1920.jpg

These records indicate the Claverie family underwent hard times prior to 1920 and then after.

The 1930 Census shows that Paul Voitier had a daughter Aminthe and a niece Aminthe.  The niece is 19 years old and as we will see, in the next Census of 1940, the mother of Nanny or Nancy Winfrey.

Aminthe-mancy-claverie-1930-census.jpg

Nannie Winfrey or true name Nancy Winfrey

1940-census-Nannie-winfrey.jpg

Other records show the Winfrey family moving about in Louisiana, Tennessee, and Kentucky during the 1930s and 1940s.

Perhaps during this time, 1947 to 1948, Andrew and Mancy experienced hard times requiring Marguerite to take care of Nanny or Nancy. 

The records on Nancy Winfrey in later times give no indication that Nancy Winfrey is the first cousin of Lee Oswald.  I think in later life she didn't want that known.  She is a good candidate for Nancy Oswald at Lily Clayton Elementary, but as the old Senator from SC said, paraphrasing, there's to much assuming going on.

Edited by John Butler
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