EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Jim Hargrove]

20 hours ago, John Butler said:

Jim and David,

Best Candidate For Nancy Oswald:  Mancy Winfrey formerly Aminthe Claverie and dauther Nanny or Nancy

Let’s assume that the Nancy Oswald and Lee Oswald spoken of in the school records of the Lily Clayton Elementary School in the 1947-1948 school year in Fort Worth, TX were actually related.  This is an assumption, but one that is not far-fetched.

Let’s assume that for a short period of time, perhaps two years, Marquerite Ekdahl/Oswald took care of the girl called Nancy Oswald, a niece of Marguerite.  This girl, if this assumption is true, would be Nanna, Nannie, or Nancy Winfrey as identified by Marilyn Murret in her WC testimony.  Her mother would be Aminthe or Mancy Claverie Winfrey who was the sister of Marguerite. 

There are further assumptions that need to be made concerning the birthday of Nancy Winfrey.  Her birthday changes form record to record variously listed as 1938, 1939, and 1940.  The 1940 Census Record gives an age of 3/12 months or a rough estimate of January, 1940. 

The Public Record Index for 1950-1993 lists Nancy M. Sweeney as being born on Dec. 30, 1939.  This date is in accord with the 1940 Census Record for Nancy Winfrey.  Nancy Moore Winfrey married Edward Louis Sweeney on June 10, 1963.  Nannie or Nancy Winfrey is Nancy M. Sweeney.  The middle name Moore comes from her father Andrew Jackson Winfrey.  Moore was his mother’s name which was Nanny Moore Fawbush.  Nancy was probably called Nanny after her grandmother.

What has to be assumed here is that Marguerite Ekdahl/Oswald perhaps for matters of convenience in entering her into school changed her name and birth date.  She was related, but perhaps she couldn’t prove guardianship so listed her as a daughter.  But, that would make the Oct. 18 birthday for Lee and Oct. 19 birthday for Nancy really weird.

So, how does this come about.  The following genealogy records can be put together for the Claverie sisters.   

Marguerite Oswald nee Claverie had 3 sisters.  Pearl Claverie Whittaker, Lillian Claverie Murret, and Aminthe (Mancy) Claverie Winfrey.  There were two brothers, but not significant for this discussion.  John died in Dec. 10, 1923 and Charles died in July 10, 1923.

It is Aminthe or Mancy as she is sometimes referred to from time to time that is important for this record.

Aminthe Jeanne Claverie was born after the 1910 Census probably during 1911 as the 1920 Census has her as 9 years old.  In the 1920 Census she is living with Paul and Marie Voitier.  Marie Voitier was the aunt of Aminthe.  Her parents were Marcel Claverie and Jeanne Cazebat. Her mother was the source of her middle name Jeanne.

These records indicate the Claverie family underwent hard times prior to 1920 and then after.

The 1930 Census shows that Paul Voitier had a daughter Aminthe and a niece Aminthe.  The niece is 19 years old and as we will see, in the next Census of 1940, the mother of Nanny or Nancy Winfrey.

Nannie Winfrey or true name Nancy Winfrey

Other records show the Winfrey family moving about in Louisiana, Tennessee, and Kentucky during the 1930s and 1940s.

Perhaps during this time, 1947 to 1948, Andrew and Mancy experienced hard times requiring Marguerite to take care of Nanny or Nancy. 

The records on Nancy Winfrey in later times give no indication that Nancy Winfrey is the first cousin of Lee Oswald.  I think in later life she didn't want that known.  She is a good candidate for Nancy Oswald at Lily Clayton Elementary, but as the old Senator from SC said, paraphrasing, there's to much assuming going on.

John,

Thank you for doing this research.  It looks like the best explanation so far for “Nancy Lee Oswald,” but it’s funny how all the details are a little “off,” just like everything else in Oswaldworld.

Since your research brought up the Voitiers, I thought you might be interested in a letter I got from the author of Mistaken Identity, one of the H&L spin-offs we were discussing earlier.  I never thought he was able to prove his claims in his book, and I eventually sent it to a well-known journalist who is interested in Harvey and Lee.  Anyway, here are two pages from the 5-page letter the author sent to me about his research.

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thank you for doing this research.  It looks like the best explanation so far for “Nancy Lee Oswald,” but it’s funny how all the details are a little “off,” just like everything else in Oswaldworld

Almost everything I have read or know about Lee Harvey Oswald and the Kennedy Assassination is contradictory ranging from a little off to a lot.  It is the genius of the spin doctors in the FBI and CIA that keep us in a continual argument with WC supporter crowd.

At first impression scanning through the two pages it looks like the researcher didn't get his facts right.  Just at first glance I have many reservations.  Without looking closely he has his Harvey and Lee mixed up.  Aminthe Voitier as versus Aminthe Claverie Winfrey?  There is an Aminthe Voitier who was the daughter of Paul and Marie Voitier, but she would be 33 years old in 1930 and Aminthe Claverie would be 19.  In 1963 Aminthe Claverie the sister of Marguerite Claverie Oswald would be 52.  And Aminthe Voitier would be 66 years of age.

Marie Claverie Voitier would be the wife of Paul Voitier.  She was the mother of Aminthe, her daughter, and aunt to Aminthe Claverie.  The close appearance of Mysterious Marge could be due to Marcel Claverie, the father of Marie Claverie Voitier, and Marie.  There would need to a great deal more research on that.  Particularly with photos for the various appearances.

Could she be Mysterious Marge who sometimes took a job as a nurse be the aunt, Aminthe Votier.  That could explain the closeness of their appearance.  Before I would agree to any of the two pages I would have to do a great deal more research.

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Jim,

I don't have a clue as to what "The W/C mother, Aminthe Voitier" means.

Aminthe Jeanne Voitier was a nurse and in 1940 Census she was working at an Isolation Hospital in New Orleans.   At the time she is 45 years old, single, with no children.  Other records list her as being in New Orleans and no record of anywhere else.  She died in 1965.  There is no mention of any children.  What happened to baby Leon?  She doesn't make a good Mysterious Marge since Marge was still alive in 1965. 

[John Butler]

Jim,

I have another "not a clue" to what is being talked about here.

Edited April 19, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

I don't think the facts are right here.  I do believe there is a possibility of a 3rd Oswald and perhaps more.  However, the evidence for such is weak.  The best is the short Oswald on the Minsk bridge.  Who wasn't as short as he appeared due to Marina's two inch high heels.  I believe the other Oswalds in the Defector Program set did not resemble Lee or Harvey enough to be used openly.  These folks would become Oswald doubles when necessary such as Billy Seymour who may have been Leon Oswald.

This brings up a question was there more than two young children selected from photos?  Harvey and Lee were a fair match in later years.  What if the others were not such as the boy at the zoo?  

Most of the time we are left with assumptions that may take us to something useful, but not really provable such as Marilyn Murret identifying Nancy Winfrey.  Here is one that bounces around in my head from time to time. 

In 1942 it became known as a possibility or fact that the Germans would lose WW2.  And, by the summer of 1943 the Germans were losing the war.  This was a surety indicated by the many German defeats suffered at the hands of the Russians.  It is during this two years that leaders in the intelligence field and foreign policy field such as William Donovan, Allen Dulles, John Foster Dulles and several others whose strategic mind set made them aggressive competitors toward the Russians.  As early as 1942-1943 the Russians were seen as the new enemy.

A Defector Program was seen as an one of a number of aggressive programs to strike first at the enemy.  The Venona program info on how the Russians had infiltrated government may be the root cause of a US effort to infiltrate the Soviet Union with spies/defectors in later years.

     

     

Edited April 19, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

Thanks.  My main interest here was getting your take on the “Mistaken Identity” author’s assertion that Aminthe Voitier was Mysterious Marge.  I’ve never heard John A. mention Aminthe Voitier in conversation, but he has said that he thought there was a “slight possibility” that the WC Marge was really Margaret Keating.

P.S.  Thought this paragraph from H&L (p. 533) might be relevant:

Harvey Oswald asks about the Oswald family

By the summer of 1963 Lee Harvey Oswald's paternal uncles, William S.,
Harvey F., and Thomas H. Oswald, and maternal uncles Charles and John Claverie, Jr.
were deceased. Oswald's paternal aunts, Alice Oswald Barre, Ethel Oswald Carter,
Hattie Oswald Coker, and maternal aunts Lillian Claverie Murret, and Aminthe
Claverie Winfry were still living (Pearl Claverie Whitacker was deceased).
On Sunday, May 5 Harvey Oswald telephoned all of the Oswalds listed in the
New Orleans telephone directory and located Mrs. Hazel Oswald, the second wife of
William S. Oswald, brother of Robert Edward Lee Oswald (father of Lee Harvey
Oswald). After introducing himself over the telephone, he asked how he could contact
his uncle, Harvey Oswald. Hazel informed him that Harvey, and all of his brothers, were
deceased. She told him that she had a large framed picture of Robert Edward Lee
Oswald (father of Lee Harvey Oswald), and that he could have the picture.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

Jim,

Marguerite Oswald (Mysterious Marge) is said to have earned $10 a day as a practical nurse.  In another context she was said to be a baby nurse. 

Didn't she drop out of high school?  When did she take training as a nurse?  Was she a nurse?

Edited April 20, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

14 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks.  My main interest here was getting your take on the “Mistaken Identity” author’s assertion that Aminthe Voitier was Mysterious Marge.

I am still working on Aminthe Voitier.  She has a confusing record with her sister Jeanne Emily Voitier Carter.  Jeanne is listed as Aminthe Jeanne Carter.  I don't think there are 3 sisters confused here, just two. 

I do not believe Aminthe Voitier ever married.  Jeanne Voitier Carter married at age 18 to Harold A. Carter.  But, she lost Harold in some way by 1940.  The 1930 census still lists her as married, but no Harold.  In 1940 Aminthe Voitier is working as a nurse at an Isolation Hospital and Jeanne Carter is working as a clerk there.  No where in these records is a Leon mentioned as the son of Aminthe.  There are no mention of a death record, or grave record, or social security record for Jeanne Carter.  She did not have any children in the 1920, 1930, and 1940 Census with no children.     

The prior post on Mysterious Marge being a practical nurse for $10 or a baby nurse may connect her to Aminthe Voitier or Jeanne Carter who worked as a clerk in a hospital and may have claimed to be a nurse later.  Just speculation.  However, there is an age difference between the two, Aminthe and Mysterious Marge, of about 10 years.

Aminthe Voitier, since her mother Marie was a Claverie, would be a second cousin (1st cousin once removed) to Marguerite Claverie, mother of Lee Oswald.  That would make Marcel and John Claverie as brothers.  This must be why Mysterious Marge and say, lets call her True Marge, Marguerite Claverie, mother of Lee Oswald look so much alike except for height and weight.  In earlier photos their facial features have some resemblance IMO.  Except for age Aminthe Voitier could be Mysterious Marge.  It is a weak case just based on nursing at this point.

Aminthe Claverie Winfrey is outside the areas of the Voitiers or Carters.  She is mainly in Ky, Tenn, and La.  Found a death record for her in Lexington, Ky, but didn't copy it.  Will look again for that record.  (found it- Aminthe (Mancy) Claverie Winfrey buried in Lexington, Ky about 3-11-1993.)  Her age rules her out as Mysterious Marge. 

At this point I am like Lee Oswald (or was it Harvey) in New Orleans in 1963.  I don't know anything about the Oswald family.  Why would True Marge not tell Lee anything about his family.  He must have wondered about his father and other Oswald relatives at some time prior to 1963?  If Mysterious Marge was involved she would not have known much about the Oswald family.

If Mysterious Marge is a relative of True Marge, then there would be some sort of extensive connection in this family to intelligence agencies.  Intelligence connections are alleged for Marilyn Murret, Dutz Murret, John Pic, Robert Oswald, True Marge's second husband Ekdahl, and of course Harvey and Lee.  And, maybe Aminthe Voitier as Mysterious Marge.  That connection is very weak.

You can make a claim (of the same weak nature) for Jeanne Voitier Carter as a possibility for Mysterious Marge.  She in later times could claim to be a nurse base on hospital experience. 

"If Mysterious Marge is a relative of True Marge"  I just noticed this would be a real hoot or talking point for the WC crowd.  Sorry.         

Edited April 20, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 8:44 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

Thank you for doing this research.  It looks like the best explanation so far for “Nancy Lee Oswald,” but it’s funny how all the details are a little “off,” just like everything else in Oswaldworld.

Since your research brought up the Voitiers, I thought you might be interested in a letter I got from the author of Mistaken Identity, one of the H&L spin-offs we were discussing earlier.  I never thought he was able to prove his claims in his book, and I eventually sent it to a well-known journalist who is interested in Harvey and Lee.  Anyway, here are two pages from the 5-page letter the author sent to me about his research.

Unless there is further information to back up the contentions in this information then I would discount it as speculation with little merit.

[Jim Hargrove]

48 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I am still working on Aminthe Voitier.  She has a confusing record with her sister Jeanne Emily Voitier Carter.  Jeanne is listed as Aminthe Jeanne Carter.  I don't think there are 3 sisters confused here, just two. 

I do not believe Aminthe Voitier ever married.  Jeanne Voitier Carter married at age 18 to Harold A. Carter.  But, she lost Harold in some way by 1940.  The 1930 census still lists her as married, but no Harold.  In 1940 Aminthe Voitier is working as a nurse at an Isolation Hospital and Jeanne Carter is working as a clerk there.  No where in these records is a Leon mentioned as the son of Aminthe.  There are no mention of a death record, or grave record, or social security record for Jeanne Carter.  She did not have any children in the 1920, 1930, and 1940 Census with no children.     

The prior post on Mysterious Marge being a practical nurse for $10 or a baby nurse may connect her to Aminthe Voitier or Jeanne Carter who worked as a clerk in a hospital and may have claimed to be a nurse later.  Just speculation.  However, there is an age difference between the two, Aminthe and Mysterious Marge, of about 10 years.

Aminthe Voitier, since her mother Marie was a Claverie, would be a second cousin (1st cousin once removed) to Marguerite Claverie, mother of Lee Oswald.  That would make Marcel and John Claverie as brothers.  This must be why Mysterious Marge and say, lets call her True Marge, Marguerite Claverie, mother of Lee Oswald look so much alike except for height and weight.  In earlier photos their facial features have some resemblance IMO.  Except for age Aminthe Voitier could be Mysterious Marge.  It is a weak case just based on nursing at this point.

Aminthe Claverie Winfrey is outside the areas of the Voitiers or Carters.  She is mainly in Ky, Tenn, and La.  Found a death record for her in Lexington, Ky, but didn't copy it.  Will look again for that record.  (found it- Aminthe (Mancy) Claverie Winfrey buried in Lexington, Ky about 3-11-1993.)  Her age rules her out as Mysterious Marge. 

At this point I am like Lee Oswald (or was it Harvey) in New Orleans in 1963.  I don't know anything about the Oswald family.  Why would True Marge not tell Lee anything about his family.  He must have wondered about his father and other Oswald relatives at some time prior to 1963?  If Mysterious Marge was involved she would not have known much about the Oswald family.

If Mysterious Marge is a relative of True Marge, then there would be some sort of extensive connection in this family to intelligence agencies.  Intelligence connections are alleged for Marilyn Murret, Dutz Murret, John Pic, Robert Oswald, True Marge's second husband Ekdahl, and of course Harvey and Lee.  And, maybe Aminthe Voitier as Mysterious Marge.  That connection is very weak.

You can make a claim (of the same weak nature) for Jeanne Voitier Carter as a possibility for Mysterious Marge.  She in later times could claim to be a nurse base on hospital experience. 

"If Mysterious Marge is a relative of True Marge"  I just noticed this would be a real hoot or talking point for the WC crowd.  Sorry.         

John,

Whether we get anywhere here or not, this is helpful research.  Thanks again.

The Oswald who was in New Orleans in 1953 was Harvey.  There, he was being “sheep dipped” as a Castro-loving commie so that the whole assassination of JFK could be blamed on Castro.  (An opinion, I suppose, but many researchers share it.)  During the same period, there is considerable evidence that Lee Oswald was in Dallas working with Jack Ruby.

On the practical nursing issue, I know of no evidence that Mysterious Marge was ever licensed to be an LPN—licensed practical nurse, which, I believe, is considerably below an RN—registered nurse.  Much of the time she seemed to work as a practical nurse assisting private people in their homes, many of whom would probably not do much checking of her references.

However, John A. cites a 2/14/78 HSCA interview in which Dr. Rex Howard said that “Marguerite” worked in a hospital that held a number of his patients.  I tried to look this up on the Mary Ferrell database but was booted out for too much searching without payment.  I’ll try again later today. Dr. Howard apparently examined Mysterious Marge at least a couple of times, and once refused to help her in what appeared to have been an insurance scam.

Real Marge usually worked in clothing stores.  Somewhere in the back of my memory I recall a claim by someone that real Marge once said she was just going to disappear.  (This may have been around the time of the “defection.”)  For the life of me, though, I can’t remember where I saw that.
 

[John Butler]

27 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Real Marge usually worked in clothing stores.  Somewhere in the back of my memory I recall a claim by someone that real Marge once said she was just going to disappear.  (This may have been around the time of the “defection.”)  For the life of me, though, I can’t remember where I saw that.
 

Probably from me.  I thought I read this somewhere also.  I went looking in various places and couldn't find what I thought I had read.

29 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Whether we get anywhere here or not, this is helpful research.  Thanks again.

At least the null hypothesis is established by not being able to confirm or deny this or that. 

Actually I have a bizarre conspiracy theory here from what I have been able to research on Voitiers.  It has a very low probability.  It might be in tune with your well-known author.

Aminthe Voitier never marries and has no children.  I couldn't find a Leon or a marriage.  If born in 1938 what happened to him by 1940?  Anyway, she has nurse training at a hospital.  Her educational attainment was the 8th grade.  Maybe she worked as a nurse, but was not licensed.  This would fit Mysterious Marge. 

Another big hurdle to place Aminthe Voitier as Mysterious Marge is her age.  Mysterious Marge died in 1981 at 73 years.  If memory is correct, that is.  Aminthe was born in 1894 and would be in 1981, 83 years.  I can't tell whether later photos of Mysterious Marge look more aged than she actually was.

Now, here is the Bizarre Part.  Aminthe Voitier (alleged Mysterious Marge) dies in 1965 at age 70.  Real Marge, Marguerite Claverie- mother of Lee Oswald, disappears within this time frame of the late 1950s to mid 60s.  So, we have Mysterious Marge (maybe Aminthe Voitier) living on as Marguerite Oswald until 1981.  And, Real Marge dying as Aminthe Votier. 

This is a hoot requiring a great deal of cooperation between an alleged Mysterious Marge and an alleged Real Marge for Real Marge to die as Aminthe Claverie.  This would have to be an intelligence agency solution to a two Marge situation.

Bizarre?  Well, a lot of things in the Oswald / Kennedy Assassination story are bizarre.      

[John Kowalski]

Jim and John:

Do you know if there is an Oswald family tree that includes the Voitiers and pictures of each family member that can be uploaded to this thread? It could help sort out the relationships between family members.

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The Oswald who was in New Orleans in 1953 was Harvey.  There, he was being “sheep dipped” as a Castro-loving commie so that the whole assassination of JFK could be blamed on Castro.  (An opinion, I suppose, but many researchers share it.)  During the same period, there is considerable evidence that Lee Oswald was in Dallas working with Jack Ruby

I contend that Lee Oswald was in NO at about the time of the pamphlet operation.  And, Judith Baker might be relevant here.  I'll probably get beaten soundly around the head and shoulders for suggesting this.  But, Judith Baker in her description of Oswald appears to me to be describing Lee Oswald rather than Harvey.  Then in other instances she is describing Harvey.  This is where I developed then notion she may have been double teamed by the spy duo as they did Marina.  She said she was very bad at facial recognition.  Would she have recognized the difference.  I would think so, but who knows?  Maybe they pulled it off.  There is one thing certain about CIA folks, is that can they be trusted in what is say?     

Edited April 20, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

7 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim and John:

Do you know if there is an Oswald family tree that includes the Voitiers and pictures of each family member that can be uploaded to this thread? It could help sort out the relationships between family members.

No pictures.  Just what I could see using the wife's genealogy service.  That would be good to have a photo record.  There are some photos available, but can't recall whose who.

I didn't notice any connections between Voitiers and Oswalds.  But, Jim's author acquaintance did.  I didn't find a Leon and he did.  I would like to see the background info on that.

It would be good to have photos of Aminthe Voitier in the times before 1940 and after.  Where are the photos of Mysterious Marge at an early age?  Pre-1950?  We have photos of Real Marge in the 1940s and 1950s but not Mysterious Marge. 

Maybe we ought to try and collect all the photos we possibly can from the times prior to 1950s.  

[John Kowalski]

John:

Had another look at Mistaken Identity. On pg. 56 he describes Oswald A as been John A.'s Harvey whose real name is Leon Voitier. He states that he defected to the Soviet Union in 1959. If it can be determined where he was from 1959-1962, when he should have been in the USSR, this would disprove the author's theory.