EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

David,

Does this letter sound like something Mysterious Marge would write?  It reads as if a classier woman than M. Marge wrote it.

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

That woulda been me... lol

I remembered the info, but not the source.  Sorry.  That was an acute observation.  I have had trouble with the photos of the various Marges during their 50s or just prior.  The teeth thing helped clarify things.  Thanks.

Margruerite C. and Margruerite M.  A big slip up on someone's part.  Who forgets there middle name or initial.

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

I'm going to need to focus on these Claverie/Winfrey/Voitier relationships and do some thinking on it....  I'll get back to y'all on that...

I'm glad you decided to take that on to look at.  I hope you get more out of it than I did.  Best candidate and not any real provable connection was as far as I could go.

 

There are so many things to keep up with its hard to do that.  I don't remember the context, but I have seen this before, probably from David.  Just guessing here, but it seems like the gimlet knife was a criminal or assassin weapon.  This from a google search.  They are also called push knives.  The ones with a spike were used for pushing directly into the heart, ear, eye, or spine.

 

This early Leon Voitier if memory serves is in the Voitier/Claverie family.

Mistaken Identity

by

William Torbitt II

Who Was Leon Voitier “Oswald? The name Leon Voitier existed as early 1938 when he was born in New Orleans, long before the Kennedy Assassination. In 1966, Dr. Richard Popkin theorized in his book, “The Second Oswald” that in 1963 two individuals used the same identity. According to FBI reports, two different “Lee Harvey Oswalds” were in different places at the same time. In 1963, Jim Garrison searched for a Leon “Oswald” as a Lee Harvey Oswald imposter in New Orleans. In the 1970s, Richard Case Nagell, a retired US Army Intelligence officer, exposed an “Oswald” look-alike named Leon Oswald. This book will identify who Leon Voitier was and why he ever existed in the first place. The 1964 Warren Commission’s “Marguerite Oswald” was presented as the mother of the accused assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald. She was not his biological mother, although she considered him as her “boy”. They lived together for longer periods then her biological son Leon “Oswald”. How this came about will be revealed when second generation French families played a pre-assassination game of deception in New Orleans for two decades and an ongoing family feud over the possession of the two “Oswald” boys. It caused a JFK nightmare of identity. Everyone connected with the murder of John Kennedy became compromised by a family secret of two second-cousins that looked alike." I'm not certain where William Torbitt II got his information. Supposedly Leon Voitier was the son of Aminthe Voitier, but I could find no information on a Leon Voitier born in 1938. I don't have a copy of Mistaken Identity.  But, as with most things I work on someone has been there before.  Torbitt II is close to what I was thinking and putting together, but not identical. “William Torbitt II”, unlike his 1970 predecessor, “William Torbitt”, is a composite of many JFK students who have touched on the truth without knowing it. In this research, the original “William Torbitt” will be identified. In addition, the identity of the Warren Commission’s “mother” of the acused assassin will be exposed. She was not the mother of the accused Lee Harvey Oswald, but closely related by marriage to the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald. Her biological son, Leon “Oswald” will be profiled and his role that paralleled his cousin, the accused assassin. In 1956, the two cousins enlisted in the US Marines a month and a half apart using the same birth certificate. With the recent release of the 1940 US Census, the two “Oswald” boys can now be identified. Related by marriage, the two dysfunctional New Orelans families that shaped the Kennedy Assassination can now be revealed. By 1944, Aminthe Jeanne Voitier, a first cousin to the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald, may have gained possession of the real Lee Harvey Oswald from his Orphan Home. Either she kidnapped him or an agreeable exchange was made. That is doubtful, since for the next twenty years Aminthe Jeanne Voitier seemed to be blackmailing the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald, or she may have given the real Lee Harvey Oswald to another family. It is possible that the real Oswald was later adopted by mistaken identity." I don't know where Torbitt II got this info in the last paragraph, but I have reservations on this.  It wanders to far away from the central thesis of Harvey and Lee.  As I said earlier in the 1940 Census Aminthe Voitier and Jeanne Carter, a sister one year younger, had no children.  The 1940 Census lists Marguerite Oswald as Marguerite C. Oswald.  I have been informed that this may not be a middle initial, but simply indicate Claverie. It is interesting to note that Torbill II has the two Oswald enlisting in the Marines 1 and 1/2 months apart using the same birth certificate.  Be interesting to see where he got that info.

Edited April 24, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

Neither of us trusts the photographic record, but I wondered what your thoughts are about the images below.  They are most of the Oswald mugshots allegedly from the USSR included in the “Evolution of LHO” poster Jack White and John A. made.  (Sorry about the quality.  I used my phone to photograph parts of the poster hanging on my office wall.)

Do you think these photos all show the same person?

 

When looking at these photos of real and phony Oswalds, we need to remember the government diktat:  There is only one Lee Harvey Oswald.  That is the person that was killed at the Dallas Police station.

By that they meant the person we call Harvey Oswald, one half of the Harvey and Lee duo. 

These photos are of Harvey Oswald and others mixed with Harvey Oswald.  I see 3 perhaps four individuals.  Definitely 3, 4 might be stretching it.

Look at the 3rd row of photos.  The most right one (screen left) is some one who reminds me of the person on the bridge with Marina sometimes called the short Oswald.  That photo is the government card of Alex Hidell.  Once again in the 3rd row the left most (screen right) photo I judge to be Lee Oswald.  Chins in these photos are dead give-a-ways.  Also narrow and broad noses, particularly in the photo I judge as Lee who has the broader nose, not Harvey.  Chins vary from relatively narrow to broad.  Narrower chins belong to Harvey and broader chins belong to Lee or someone else such as the James Alek Hidell character.

It's a gnarly question because of the genius of the photo manipulators.  Look at these one way now and perhaps a year later you might look at them differently.

With that said, I hope I haven't wandered to far off from where we talked about this before.

[Pete Mellor]

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks for pointing that out.  I misread what was said in the doc.  After doing a google search, I dimissed this thinking Zguritza was in northern Russian.  I couldn't make the connection to the Black Sea area and Zgurita, Moldova.  I would guess that Marina's step-father would have been assigned to that area in Moldova as part of this duties.  Further reading says that they returned to Leningrad (St. Petersburg).  There is roughly 1200 miles between Arkhangelsk and Zgurita, Moldavia.

 

Yeah John, I too thought my post was a bit crazy after sticking it on here, Zgurita being so far from Severodvinsk.  I did more Wiki surfing today around White Sea area but drew a blank too.

I find this thread very interesting, always considered John Armstrong's research fascinating.  With over 80 pages here I'll be some time to catch up!

[David Josephs]

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Margruerite C. and Margruerite M.  A big slip up on someone's part.  Who forgets there middle name or initial.

Marguerite G versus Margaret M....

Not only the middle initial, but the first name...  Ms. Keating's name was Margaret... her mom, Cecilia or Cecile...  Ms. Claverie's was Marguerite

Margaret's mother Cecilia was born 1870, Margaret 1892 so Cecilia is 22 when Marge is born
Jan 1 1920 Census info shows her to be 27 years older than her daughter...   how much do you think Cecilia looks like our Mystery Marge.. she must be around 80 in that photo.

I can feel something here... just not sure what.

[John Butler]

David,

When are you going to ask an easy question? 

Mysterious Marge looks 70-ish, but could be 80-ish.  The Keating lady looks 80-ish if not older.  I don't think they look alike at all.  But, that is mainly a factor of weight and wrinkles.  A matter of wrinkles as you will see in the second photo collection in determining age.

Here is a grouping of 80 year old women.  Many look their age, but there are quite a few that look younger by up to 10 or more years:

Not the greatest of evidences, but it shows that Mysterious Marge could be older than she looks in that photo of being 70-ish.

I don't know what to make of Marg Oswald and Margaret Keating having the same address.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

11 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Marguerite G versus Margaret M....

Not only the middle initial, but the first name...  Ms. Keating's name was Margaret... her mom, Cecilia or Cecile...  Ms. Claverie's was Marguerite

Margaret's mother Cecilia was born 1870, Margaret 1892 so Cecilia is 22 when Marge is born
Jan 1 1920 Census info shows her to be 27 years older than her daughter...   how much do you think Cecilia looks like our Mystery Marge.. she must be around 80 in that photo.

I can feel something here... just not sure what.

Gotta love those graphics!

Margaret Keating (now along with Aminthe Voitier) appears to be a serious candidate for the Marguerite Oswald impostor.  John A. discovered that “The name Margaret Keating and her address, 120 N. Telemachus Street, appear in New Orleans City Directories, telephone books, voter registration records, etc., from 1933 thru the early 1960s.”

But the one exception was the 1956 New Orleans City Directory, which listed “Margt. Oswald” at that address. The same directory lists “Marguerite Oswald” at 126 Exchange Pl.  Two Marguerite Oswalds, one abbreviated as “Margt?”

Mrs. Keating hadn’t used that name since 1933, when she divorced Robert Oswald.

One thing I don’t understand is this listing, reproduced on the H&L CD, which shows just “Margt Oswald” on Telemachus, not “Marguerite Oswald” on Exchange Pl.  It must not be the 1956 listing.

Here’s a recent Google image of 120 N. Telemachus.

[Jim Hargrove]

17 hours ago, John Butler said:

These photos are of Harvey Oswald and others mixed with Harvey Oswald.  I see 3 perhaps four individuals.  Definitely 3, 4 might be stretching it.

Look at the 3rd row of photos.  The most right one (screen left) is some one who reminds me of the person on the bridge with Marina sometimes called the short Oswald.  That photo is the government card of Alex Hidell.  Once again in the 3rd row the left most (screen right) photo I judge to be Lee Oswald.  Chins in these photos are dead give-a-ways.  Also narrow and broad noses, particularly in the photo I judge as Lee who has the broader nose, not Harvey.  Chins vary from relatively narrow to broad.  Narrower chins belong to Harvey and broader chins belong to Lee or someone else such as the James Alek Hidell character.

John,

I see what you mean about the chins.  They do look different, but could this be a byproduct of lighting, different lenses and camera angles and that sort of thing?

The biggest problem with considering multiple LHOs in Russia, at least ones sponsored by U.S. intel, is why in heck would the Russian’s allow it?  Harvey Oswald had to slit his wrist to stay after the Soviets obviously saw through his “defector” ruse.  They would allow another guy named LHO to enter from the U.S?  Very hard for me to believe.
 

[John Butler]

 

44 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I see what you mean about the chins.  They do look different, but could this be a byproduct of lighting, different lenses and camera angles and that sort of thing?

The biggest problem with considering multiple LHOs in Russia, at least ones sponsored by U.S. intel, is why in heck would the Russian’s allow it?  Harvey Oswald had to slit his wrist to stay after the Soviets obviously saw through his “defector” ruse.  They would allow another guy named LHO to enter from the U.S?  Very hard for me to believe.

All of the relevant photos can't be explained by camera angles, etc.  There are questions that need to be asked.  For instance, why have a double spy program if you don't use your double spies in the same locations?  There would be periods where the double spies need not be together.  Harvey in Russia and Lee in the US actively operating as Lee Oswald runs the risk of exposure of the double spy.  John Armstrong and others picked up on that.

Hoover's indication that there may have been two people using the Oswald birth certificate is the only reference I know of that Hoover did not know about the double spy. 

In Russia, Oswald No. 1 would be the main person.  Oswald No. 2 would come into the country under clandestine cover and not named as Oswald No. 1.  The CIA was very capable of doing this.  There would be only two Oswalds at one time.  That means that spy Oswald NO. 2 was replaced.  It seems that the double spy activity centers around Marina Oswald.  At least in the photos.  Who knows what else Harvey and Lee would be doing in Russia.  I'm sure part of that would be assessing what the people of Russia felt/thought about communism and their country in regards to overthrowing the Soviets.   

Harvey's entry into the Soviet Union was a planned affair.  Intense interrogation would be assumed by the Russians.  This would be the type of drugs/torture interrogation that no could resist.  Harvey breaking under that assumed interrogation would be planned for at the beginning.  Harvey as a trained agent was trained for this probably through MK-Ultra.  There would be an alternative story behind Harvey's first expressed story, or even several fall back stories.  This would be a believable fall back story.  I'm with Mae Brussell on this.  Harvey's defection to the Soviet Union has to do with the U2 and providing the Soviets with the info to shoot down a U2.  Oswalds whole Marine career was about the U2 program. 

From what I have read there were few or no Americans in Minsk prior to Harvey being there.  Perhaps tourists would wander through.  This was typical of most Soviet cities.  The Iron Curtain was a two way curtain.  In the 1950s we knew very little about what was going on in the Soviet Union.  Hence, the defector program as one tool to gather information. There were others.  There always seems to be people willing to betray their government and people for various reasons they consider important.  Take a good look at the Goros/Bentley networks of the 1930s and 1940s.  Most of the American people involved volunteered to give information to the Soviets.

Double spies and altered photos are really not that believable to people.  This is what I see and catch it for that belief constantly.  I've spent the last 35 years comparing the details of an object (any object whether it is a real object or one you see in your mind) and putting those details on canvas in an oil painting.  I'm not a great artist, but I would say a good one.  And, basically that means becoming proficient in comparing objects detail in their similarities and differences.  That's basically what an artist does.  The putting of those details on canvas is not as important as recognizing similarities and differences. 

     

              

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Harvey's entry into the Soviet Union was a planned affair.  Intense interrogation would be assumed by the Russians.  This would be the type of drugs/torture interrogation that no could resist.  Harvey breaking under that assumed interrogation would be planned for at the beginning.  Harvey as a trained agent was trained for this probably through MK-Ultra.  There would be an alternative story behind Harvey's first expressed story, or even several fall back stories.  This would be a believable fall back story.  I'm with Mae Brussell on this.  Harvey's defection to the Soviet Union has to do with the U2 and providing the Soviets with the info to shoot down a U2.  Oswalds whole Marine career was about the U2 program. 

Right, but of course it was American-born LEE Oswald who spent all that time near the U2s in Atsugi, Japan.  Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was at Atsugi, most likely, for a matter of hours, and most of that time apparently in the brig. It was HARVEY who “defected” to Russia.

Part of the cleverness of the whole project was that, no matter how harshly Harvey might have been interrogated, he probably knew few details about the U2 to give the Soviets, although the whole thing apparently fooled Francis Gary Powers.  Read the center column in his article, ‘WAS I BETRAYED BY LEE HARVEY OSWALD?”

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, John Butler said:

All of the relevant photos can't be explained by camera angles, etc.  There are questions that need to be asked.  For instance, why have a double spy program if you don't use your double spies in the same locations?  There would be periods where the double spies need not be together.  Harvey in Russia and Lee in the US actively operating as Lee Oswald runs the risk of exposure of the double spy.  John Armstrong and others picked up on that.

John,

Your explanation is appreciated, but I’ve believed since our first discussions that you have some obvious expertise recognizing facial details in images.  That’s why we’re having this discussion about photos allegedly of LHO in Russia.  Beyond those photos, I see no other evidence that there was more than one American in Russia claiming to be LHO during this time frame.  Since you disagree, I’m hoping you can provide more evidence beyond the photos, although there is little doubt that the photos are significant.

You ask, “why have a double spy program if you don't use your double spies in the same locations?” and, to me at least, the answer is that the spy doubles provide easy deniability for intel ops in wide ranging locations.  For example, if one Oswald was in Minsk on January 20, 1961, how could the VERY SAME OSWALD make a scene at the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans on the very same day?

The answer the Agency wanted us all to believe is that it never happened, at least not involving “LEE Harvey Oswald.”  Ain't DENIABILITY great?

 

[David Boylan]

Jim,

You've probably seen this but it's new to me. Mentions "Harvey".

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=190904#relPageId=2&tab=page

[John Butler]

The Harvey story?  I wonder what that means in November, 1963?

The doc mentions many things of interest.

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Jim,

You've probably seen this but it's new to me. Mentions "Harvey".

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=190904#relPageId=2&tab=page

What a fascinating document (reproduced above by John Butler)!  

According to the CIA pseudonyms database at the Mary Ferrell site, Thomas Casasin was a pseudonym of Jacques Richardson, who “served the CIA in Japan during the period that Lee Harvey Oswald was a radar operator and transferred to Soviet Russia Division prior to when Oswald defected.”  James Wilcott also served at the CIA station in Japan.

Among several interesting aspects of this note was Richardson’s description of a “pattern” of a “number of Soviet women marrying foreigners, being permitted to leave the USSR, then eventually divorcing their spouses and settling down abroad without returning ‘home’.”

Marina’s behavior in the U.S. certainly seemed to follow this “pattern.”

There was never a single indication that Lee Harvey Oswald harmed or abused
Marina in the Soviet Union. Nor was there an indication that he harmed or abused her
at Robert Oswald's house or "Marguerite Oswald's" apartment in Fort Worth in the
summer of 1962. But soon after the young couple moved into the apartment on
Mercedes Street, and were alone, Marina began to complain that her husband was beating
her. [Harvey and Lee, p. 412]

Calling it the “Harvey story” also is interesting.  Almost all of the references in the U.S. that I’ve seen to “Harvey Lee Oswald” seem to refer to the Russian-speaking Oswald killed by Ruby, not to the American-born Oswald. 

Thanks for this, David.  I don’t recall seeing it before.

[James Norwood]

Another interesting detail in the document discussed above is the interest of Jacques Richardson (a.k.a., Thomas Casasin) in the information Oswald could provide "on the Minsk factory in which he had been employed."  This illustrates how Oswald was in a position to provide valuable data on life in the Soviet Union for Cold War spooks.  And indeed Oswald delivered the goods in his detailed accounts about the factory and life in Minsk, upon his return to the United States in 1962.  

Thanks for posting this doc, David.