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EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)


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There's a serious problem with the basic premise of the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense. Surprisingly, although the theory has been going for two decades or more, none of its believers appear to have been aware of the problem until recently.

I've mentioned it on at least three other threads (here and here and here), and so far the faithful have not been able to come up with a reply. Since this thread was set up by the chief 'Harvey and Lee' evangelist to discuss the specifics of his beloved theory ("right here"), I thought I might as well mention the problem right here too, and try to shame the believers into confronting it.

The problem is to do with the purpose of Oswald's defection; not the actual purpose, of course, but the purpose according to 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine. In 'Harvey and Lee' world, the CIA wanted to send into the Soviet Union a false defector who was able to secretly understand the Russian that was being spoken around him. The defector needed to have a plausible American background, ideally as a serviceman, so that the Soviet authorities wouldn't suspect his true role.

There was a straightforward way for the CIA masterminds to get hold of a suitable defector. All they had to do was:

(a) look at the 2.5 million or more US servicemen who were active in any given year in the 1950s;

(b) find one with an aptitude for languages;

(c) and allow him to learn Russian to the level at which he could understand what was being said around him, perhaps adding some tuition if required.

The task could have been accomplished in a year or two.

According to 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine, however, the CIA masterminds did not choose this obvious and efficient method of recruiting a US serviceman who could understand spoken Russian.

Instead, the masterminds decided to set up a long-term scheme involving two pairs of doppelgangers. They recruited two unrelated but virtually identical Oswalds (one of whom vanished without trace immediately after the assassination) and two unrelated but virtually identical Marguerites (one of whom also vanished without trace immediately after the assassination), as well as all the people needed to keep the show on the road for more than a decade.

According to doctrine, one of the Oswald doppelgangers had learned Russian as a child. Doctrine isn't clear about whether the doppelganger picked up the language instinctively, before he reached school age (making him a native speaker), or after he started school (making him a non-native speaker). Doctrine isn't clear either about how well the doppelganger knew Russian, although the implication is that his Russian was at least very good, and far better than it needed to be. If your task is only to understand what is being said around you, you don't need to be an expert speaker or anywhere near that level.

Whether the doppelganger was a native or non-native speaker of Russian, the problem is the same. The scheme was unnecessarily complex, expensive and inefficient. The possibility of setting it up would surely not even have occurred to the masterminds. The 'Harvey and Lee' theory's preposterous long-term double-doppelganger scheme could never have been implemented.

The masterminds had a much simpler, cheaper, and more efficient way to achieve their goal: find an American with a knack for languages, get him up to speed in Russian, then send him off to Moscow. Here's the question the 'Harvey and Lee' faithful have been unable to answer:

Why did the masterminds not do this?

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1 hour ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

There's a serious problem with the basic premise of the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense.

 

He insults us and then expects us to reply?

 

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There's a serious problem with the basic premise of the 'Harvey and Lee' [theory].

 

That's not true.

 

Quote

I've mentioned it on at least three other threads (here and here and here), and so far the faithful have not been able to come up with a reply.

 

I replied weeks ago and he saw my reply. But he didn't like what I said and has ignored it ever since.

It is for this reason that I refuse to respond to any more of his questions.

 

Quote

Since this thread was set up by the chief 'Harvey and Lee' evangelist to discuss the specifics of his beloved theory ("right here"), I thought I might as well mention the problem right here too, and try to shame the believers into confronting it.

The problem is to do with the purpose of Oswald's defection; not the actual purpose, of course, but the purpose according to 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine. In 'Harvey and Lee' world, the CIA wanted to send into the Soviet Union a false defector who was able to secretly understand the Russian that was being spoken around him. The defector needed to have a plausible American background, ideally as a serviceman, so that the Soviet authorities wouldn't suspect his true role.

There was a straightforward way for the CIA masterminds to get hold of a suitable defector. All they had to do was:

(a) look at the 2.5 million or more US servicemen who were active in any given year in the 1950s;

(b) find one with an aptitude for languages;

(c) and allow him to learn Russian to the level at which he could understand what was being said around him, perhaps adding some tuition if required.

The task could have been accomplished in a year or two.

According to 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine, however, the CIA masterminds did not choose this obvious and efficient method of recruiting a US serviceman who could understand spoken Russian.

Instead, the masterminds decided to set up a long-term scheme involving two pairs of doppelgangers. They recruited two unrelated but virtually identical Oswalds (one of whom vanished without trace immediately after the assassination) and two unrelated but virtually identical Marguerites (one of whom also vanished without trace immediately after the assassination), as well as all the people needed to keep the show on the road for more than a decade.

According to doctrine, one of the Oswald doppelgangers had learned Russian as a child. Doctrine isn't clear about whether the doppelganger picked up the language instinctively, before he reached school age (making him a native speaker), or after he started school (making him a non-native speaker). Doctrine isn't clear either about how well the doppelganger knew Russian, although the implication is that his Russian was at least very good, and far better than it needed to be. If your task is only to understand what is being said around you, you don't need to be an expert speaker or anywhere near that level.

Whether the doppelganger was a native or non-native speaker of Russian, the problem is the same. The scheme was unnecessarily complex, expensive and inefficient. The possibility of setting it up would surely not even have occurred to the masterminds. The 'Harvey and Lee' theory's preposterous long-term double-doppelganger scheme could never have been implemented.

The masterminds had a much simpler, cheaper, and more efficient way to achieve their goal: find an American with a knack for languages, get him up to speed in Russian, then send him off to Moscow. Here's the question the 'Harvey and Lee' faithful have been unable to answer:

Why did the masterminds not do this?

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

(a) look at the 2.5 million or more US servicemen who were active in any given year in the 1950s;

(b) find one with an aptitude for languages;

(c) and allow him to learn Russian to the level at which he could understand what was being said around him, perhaps adding some tuition if required.

The task could have been accomplished in a year or two.

Speaking as someone who 

* took French (a much easier to learn language than Russian) in High School and College passing all courses with a C or better grade - 4 years in total

* is married to a French speaker

* worked in France w French companies for 5 years

* was exposed to the French language living in France for 13 years & more importantly while raising a child bilingually learning more French by osmosis over the last 20 years

It seems to me that you are totally overestimating the level of conversational understanding that a US serviceman could achieve in 2 years of training at age 19 or over (languages are best learned before the age of 9).  The extensive vocabulary, knowledge of local idioms and accents, and understanding of any slang adds to the difficulty.

Also the difficulty of learning Russian specifically, with its Cyrillic alphabet and difficult pronunciations makes it a lot more difficult than French, Italian, Spanish, etc.

I find it difficult to believe that it could be done.

Should be easy enough to prove tho -- just find a graduate of a military language school in a 2 year period that speaks Russian fluently, can read Russian language papers & magazines and has a great vocabulary covering military, technical, slang & local accents and variations.

Got one? -- I'm willing to be convinced.

 

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Bill Fite writes:

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It seems to me that you are totally overestimating the level of conversational understanding that a US serviceman could achieve in 2 years of training at age 19 or over

I'm not claiming that a fictional defector would have started at the age of 19. I suspect you're confusing the real-life, historical, one and only Lee Harvey Oswald's acquisition of Russian with that of the fictional Oswald doppelganger imagined by 'Harvey and Lee' believers.

The point I was making was that if (as 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine proclaims) the masterminds at the CIA were planning in the late 1940s or early 1950s to send over a false defector whose job it was to eavesdrop on Russian conversation, it would have been vastly more practical for them to recruit a single genuine American with a talent for languages rather than set up and maintain a long-term scheme involving two pairs of unrelated doppelgangers. Recruiting a genuine American is such an obvious solution, and the double-doppelganger scheme so far-fetched, that they would never even have considered the latter.

There were 2.5 million US servicemen active at the time of the real-life Lee Harvey Oswald's defection, and more than three million at around the time the fictional 'Harvey and Lee' double-doppelganger scheme was supposedly set up. No doubt none of the 2.5 or 3 million servicemen had the natural ability of, say, Powell Janulus, who claimed to be able to learn two or three languages to a high level in a year, but there must have been plenty whose ability to learn languages was much greater than that of the average person.

If the masterminds couldn't locate someone who they thought might be capable of learning Russian to a good but non-expert level in two years, how about three years, or four, or five? I'm sure they wouldn't have had any trouble finding at least one native English-speaking American who could have reached the required level within five years.

According to 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine, the double-doppelganger scheme was set up no less than seven years before the real-life, historical, one and only Oswald's defection (and possibly much earlier if one of the imaginary doppelgangers was given an unnecessary mastoidectomy operation at the age of six). If the masterminds had been happy to wait seven years for their plans to come to fruition, they would have had many thousands of suitable candidates to choose from. The double-doppelganger scheme becomes even more unlikely.

The point is that however long it took to get the chosen candidate up to speed, it was far easier to do this than to set up and maintain a double-doppelganger scheme. Even if the masterminds messed up and chose someone who took a decade to learn sufficient Russian, the double-doppelganger scheme would still never have been set up. They had a far more obvious way of achieving their goal.

The question remains: since such a practical and obvious solution would have been available, why would the masterminds not have chosen it?

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I have just watched the disturbing documentary 'Three Identical Strangers'. It  concerns covert experiments on twins/triplets. It is probably more disturbing for proponents of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, bearing in mind the time when these experiments were being carried out. Is it worth looking further into the background of Peter B. Neubauer?

Mystery surrounds the reason why the results of these experiments were supressed. My guess is that the explanation relates to the sensitivies of the Jewish Nation, as opposed to Intelligence Agency suppression, but who knows?

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On 9/18/2020 at 7:12 AM, Bill Fite said:

 

Also the difficulty of learning Russian specifically, with its Cyrillic alphabet and difficult pronunciations makes it a lot more difficult than French, Italian, Spanish, etc.

I find it difficult to believe that it could be done.

Should be easy enough to prove tho -- just find a graduate of a military language school in a 2 year period that speaks Russian fluently, can read Russian language papers & magazines and has a great vocabulary covering military, technical, slang & local accents and variations.

Got one? -- I'm willing to be convinced.

 

I am too. Where is a recording of Oswald speaking in Russian? His writing in Russian as well as English is poor at best.

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