EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[Tony Krome]

21 hours ago, John Butler said:

 

Wait a minute, who was married to Marina in Russia?

 

[John Butler]

11 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Wait a minute, who was married to Marina in Russia?

 

Tony,

I could be a bit wrong on the 1962 date for Marina and Lee as seen in the photo above.  The date could be 1961.  Anyway, the answer is simple.  Marina once informed us of her marital status.  She said she was married to two men.  I am not recalling exactly what she said, but it was something like I was married to two men.  One kind and gentle and the father of her children, and the other not.  Some folks think she was talking about the variable nature of Oswald.  But, I don't.

What I think is Marina was a Soviet spy.   What we know of her history says she was a spy for the Soviets.  And, in order to get to the US she doubled and went along with the game of Harvey and Lee.  She cohabitated with both in Russia and then in the US.  There are odd stories about Marina and Oswald while another Oswald was somewhere else.

Once she was here she tripled and returned to her allegiance to the Soviets.  Her behavior and testimony after the DPD incident and Harvey's death points toward that.  There's not a lot of facts to base that on.  It my speculation.  But, I have noticed others think something similar.  

[Tony Krome]

9 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Tony, What I think is Marina was a Soviet spy.   What we know of her history says she was a spy for the Soviets.  And, in order to get to the US she doubled and went along with the game of Harvey and Lee.  She cohabitated with both in Russia and then in the US.  There are odd stories about Marina and Oswald while another Oswald was somewhere else.

Once she was here she tripled and returned to her allegiance to the Soviets.  Her behavior and testimony after the DPD incident and Harvey's death points toward that.  There's not a lot of facts to base that on.  It my speculation.  But, I have noticed others think something similar.  

I could be a bit wrong on the 1962 date for Marina and Lee as seen in the photo above.  The date could be 1961.  Anyway, the answer is simple.  Marina once informed us of her marital status.  She said she was married to two men.  I am not recalling exactly what she said, but it was something like I was married to two men.  One kind and gentle and the father of her children, and the other not.  Some folks think she was talking about the variable nature of Oswald.  But, I don't.

Do you think Marina's daughters are Harvey's or Lee's?

Edited July 3, 2021 by Tony Krome

[John Butler]

11 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Do you think Marina's daughters are Harvey's or Lee's?

Could be one of the reason folks are avoiding genetic testing of Marina's daughters and relatives of the original Lee Harvey Oswald.  I don't know and I think nobody knows including Marina.

The Oswald daughters appear to be different in appearance and perhaps not even sisters.  But, I don't think so.  They appear to have the characteristics of their parents Harvey and Marina.  Rachel looks more like Harvey and June looks more like Marina.  They have different facial structures, particularly the jaw width.  But, so did their parents.

Edited July 3, 2021 by John Butler

[Tony Krome]

12 hours ago, John Butler said:

I don't know and I think nobody knows including Marina.

 

I can't imagine two Oswalds ducking in and out of Elsbeth.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Tony Krome

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

I asked John Butler:

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If they did set up a long-term double-doppelganger project, they must have had a good reason for doing so, mustn't they? But what was that reason?

John replied:

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Simpler is in this case is not better.  Simpler is easier to expose.

How?

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One needs to assume that any American defector to Russia would be heavily interrogated by the Soviets.

I'm not sure about that. Off-hand, I can think of one American defector who wasn't heavily interrogated by the Soviets. What was the chap's name ... let me think ... began with an 'O' ... ah yes ... Oswald.

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The defector's story would need to be convincing.

If my understanding of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory is correct, the defector's story was that he was a genuine American. The most foolproof way of making the defector's 'genuine American' story convincing would be to give the role to a genuine American, surely? There were millions of suitable candidates. No-one would even have thought of using an eastern European doppelganger.

'The defector's story would need to be convincing' is actually an argument against the double-doppelganger theory, not for it!

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He would need to know the technical secrets he said he would give to Russian.

Such knowledge would be based on the defector's time in the Marines. Whether or not he was a doppelganger would make no difference. So why make things vastly more complicated by using a doppelganger?

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A hidden ability to speak a language, Russian, would be exposed.

Again, the risk would be the same for a genuine American and an eastern European doppelganger. What's the advantage of using a doppelganger?

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Therefore the double man/spy.  The one with language ability would be switched later.  After the techno radar secrets were delivered to shoot down a U2.

OK then.

It's amazing that the 'Harvey and Lee' theory is so poorly thought-out, yet for more than two decades its proponents never seemed to notice this gaping hole in it. As far as I can tell, John Armstrong never dealt with the problem in his book, and his ever-diminishing bunch of acolytes never dealt with it in all the years they have been spreading the word on this forum and elsewhere.

The double-doppelganger scheme is so preposterously complicated and unlikely, compared to the alternative, that it would never even have occurred to anyone who wanted to send a false defector to the Soviet Union.

[John Butler]

13 hours ago, John Butler said:

I don't know and I think nobody knows including Marina.

 

That might be a bit of an overstatement.  I don't know.  From their appearance they appear to be the daughters of Harvey Oswald and Marina.  This is what Marina said when she said she was married to two men.  

 

12 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

I can't imagine two Oswalds ducking in and out of Elsbeth.

Or, any other place such as his last address before the JFKA.  The Oswald driving a car to get a hair cut sounds more like Lee than Harvey.  But, that is one of the stories that needs to be looked at closer.  There are others that really are not coming back to memory but need to be looked up.  I'll need to refresh my memory.

Another thing that occurred to me is that it is said that Harvey Oswald abused Marina beating her up on occasion.  I wonder if that had to do with jealousy of Lee and perhaps others.  I am convinced by that photo with Marina  and others that Lee Oswald was in Russia at one time or another.  I think he may even have led the way. 

This differs from the Harvey and Lee account which I don't want to abandon,  I may be wrong in what I am thinking.  I have been thinking this for awhile and have not found convincing evidence to abandon the notion that Lee Oswald was not in Russia.  But, I reserve the right to change my mind with new evidence.  I'll hold these two versions in mind until I am absolutely convinced one way or the other.  

After Lee Oswald left the Marine Corps in March, 1959.  He enters a black hole where there are few references to him during the rest of the year 1959 and most of 1960.  They are not enough to account for his behavior during this time.  These references after September, 1959 could apply to Harvey if the Steenberger incident is true.  Others, such as the Robert Oswald's photo he eventually said occurred in September, 1959.  The Harvey and Lee folks think this is Lee and the Sept., 1959 date is correct.  But, on the photo from his book he said this photo was taken in February, 1958.

I am going to take his word on Feb., 1958.  This is Harvey as revealed by his hairline recession, earlobes, narrow nose, and chin.  This can't be Lee in Feb., 1958 because he was on maneuvers in the South China Sea or near Subic Bay, Philippines at the time.  If the Sept., 1959 date is correct it is still not Lee.  Robert Oswald's statements are problematic.

This photo is strange and might be altered.  Here's a closer look at Harvey's legs.

Does anyone know whether Oswald had Elephantiasis?  Shin guards for soccer?  Weird boots?  See through pants cuffs?  Oswald with pants cuffs?  Can you find that in another photo?

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

7 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

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Simpler is in this case is not better.  Simpler is easier to expose.

How?

The simple plan would have a Russian speaking infiltrator being sent into Russia.  The Soviets, particularly the KGB and other intelligence branches were extremely paranoid about infiltrators/spies.  They would have thoroughly questioned such a person using any technique including drugs and torture.  They would have found the truth before releasing such a person into Soviet society.  

[John Butler]

7 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

OK then.

It's amazing that the 'Harvey and Lee' theory is so poorly thought-out, yet for more than two decades its proponents never seemed to notice this gaping hole in it.

It is only your opinion, and a few others, who think things are poorly thought out.  Poorly thought out would suggest a fictional scheme like a novel rather than the facts that were gathered and analyzed over years of research and study.  The facts tell the story rather than your so-called imagined fictional account. 

Edited July 3, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

7 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The double-doppelganger scheme is so preposterously complicated and unlikely, compared to the alternative, that it would never even have occurred to anyone who wanted to send a false defector to the Soviet Union.

If you are looking for purpose in Harvey and Lee, then think about what you just said.

[Jim Hargrove]

John B:  I disagree with a number of your conclusions, including that it is Lee HARVEY Oswald in the hunter photo, but it is great to see someone who doesn’t try to bury and ignore the evidence for two Oswalds, but instead looks at everything with a fresh viewpoint.  I hope you keep it going.

Jeremy B:

As perhaps you will agree, the use of lookalikes and impostors is common in spycraft. Antonio and Patricio DeLaGuardia, top spies for Cuba, were twin brothers.  Starting in the 1950s, Russian spy Konon Molody assumed the identity of Gordon Lonsdale, after being schooled in Berkley to learn English and American customs.  Starting in the 1980s, Canadian Michael Ross married an Israeli woman, joined the Mossad, and assumed at least six different identities, one lasting seven years, so he could gather intelligence.  Even Mata Hari was said to have used a stage double so she could do other things.  There are other examples.

One reason, of course, for the use of doubles is deniability.  LHO couldn’t have been at Bolton Ford in Louisiana, or with Cuban expats in Miami and the Everglades, because he was in the Soviet Union.  Case closed.

Another reason to use impostors and lookalikes is that the impostor may have skills his counterpart simply doesn’t have.  One example: to understand the Russian language with remarkable clarity, so that he could travel to the USSR, pretend he didn’t speak Russian, and understand everything that was said around him.  It is quite clear that Lee HARVEY Oswald understood Russian before he ever set foot in the Soviet Union.

And, of course, he took that famous Russian-language test in the Marines, making essentially the same score he made in English language tests (“poor”).  A few years ago, a foreign language teacher names (from memory) Mathia Bauman, told us that those military language exams were designed to test native speakers.

“He [Oswald] spent a great deal of his free time reading papers printed in Russian…. I believe he also had some books written in Russian, although I do not remember their names.” –Mack Osborne, who told the FBI he shared a bunk with Oswald in a 6-man Quonset hut in the Marines.

British researcher Malcolm Blunt years ago interviewed a NYC school teacher who had LHO in her class and said he talked with a strong Eastern European language and may have feigned occasional deafness because he had difficulty communicating in English.  John A. is working on this new material and it should be up on our website within a week or two.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

7 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Such knowledge would be based on the defector's time in the Marines. Whether or not he was a doppelganger would make no difference. So why make things vastly more complicated by using a doppelganger?

Harvey and Lee was a high level counter espionage program designed for some major task.  It became apparent that the U2 would eventually be shot down by the Russians.  So, why not use that notion for American intelligence benefits by supplying the Russians with the means to that and prolong the Cold War.  After the main part of the mission, the U2 downing and subsequent failure of a summit meeting, then it would be useful to have a Russian speaker switched in to begin spy work such as finding dissidents and setting up spy networks.  Harvey and Lee had been practicing their game, which I call switch-em, since they were children.  They looked close enough to each other to get away with it in most circumstances.  They fooled almost everyone.  Marina was exposed to both.  This indicates she was a willing participant to get to the US.

There were two Oswalds wandering around the TSBD on the day of the assassination.  Neither were caught or identified as doubles.  The two left by different routes.   

[John Butler]

4 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John B:  I disagree with a number of your conclusions, including that it his Lee HARVEY Oswald in the hunter photo, but it is great to see someone who doesn’t try to bury and ignore the evidence for two Oswalds, but instead looks at everything with a fresh viewpoint.

Thanks Jim,

I haven't abandoned Harvey and Lee altogether.  People often see things differently.  But, what I read and look at in Harvey and Lee there is very little difference from what you see.  Probably my thinking on the U2 differs from you.  

You may be correct and I may be wrong.  I'll have to work that out.  I first identified that photo as Lee Oswald, if you will recall, until later time when I changed my mind.   What do you think of the strange appearance of the legs in the Oswald figure in the photo?

But, for me things are pointing differently.  I'll keep exploring this notion until I am convinced one way or the other.

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

This photo is strange and might be altered.  Here's a closer look at Harvey's legs.

Does anyone know whether Oswald had Elephantiasis?

Well, he had a 13" head, so what do you think?  Don’t think so?  Ask some of your H&L confreres.  Apparently he replaced David Bowie in the Elephant Man touring cast.

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Shin guards for soccer?

It’s called football, everywhere in the world that people play it.  Where you live, the game that lets you use your hands a lot is called football.  Sometimes tough to distinguish one’s posterior from one’s elbow in such environs.  Explains much, really.

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Weird boots? 

I am not a highly skilled photographic interpreter such as yourself, but I have a thought that might pertain.

People mucking about in rough terrain are sometimes known to wear rubber boots.  Sometimes as high as the knee.

When in the water, one tucks the pants into the boots.

When on land, one tucks the boots under the pants.

You see how that works?  Don't even need "weird" boots.

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

See through pants cuffs? 

The pant cuffs are “see through?” I have no trouble seeing them.  They’re the part that doesn’t let you see either the blue jeans or the boots.

But then I am not a highly skilled photographic analyst such as yourself.

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Oswald with pants cuffs?

As for the pant cuffs, there are at least two perfectly mundane explanations for this.

First, although I was not Oswald’s age at the time, I do recall that rolling up blue jeans pant cuffs was a fad for a while.  Went well with a ducks ass hairdo and badass leather jacket.

But given the photo, I’d go with my second choice, which is that he was trying to ensure his pant cuffs didn’t get dirty by dragging on the ground.  

Or he was wearing borrowed pants, because Harvey had run off with all Lee’s britches.  Made a fortune in the USSR by selling Lee’s authentic gen-you-ine USA trousers.

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Can you find that in another photo?

 I don’t know.  Is there a market for pix of Lee Harvey Oswald’s feet?

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John B:  I disagree with a number of your conclusions

 

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

Thanks Jim,

I haven't abandoned Harvey and Lee altogether.

Lovely to see you and Jim H. getting along so well, what with all the freelancing that you and other H&L acolytes seem to do.

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Robert Charles-Dunne said:

Lovely to see you and Jim H. getting along so well, what with all the freelancing that you and other H&L acolytes seem to do.

Jim and I get along quite well and have for years.  We agree on 99.9 percent of John Armstrong's account.  I am simply exploring other avenues that I think might be right and I have done that in the past.  Sometimes, it is helpful, others not.  

There is weak evidence for this notion at present.

Edited July 4, 2021 by John Butler