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EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)


Jim Hargrove
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On 7/3/2021 at 11:45 PM, John Butler said:

The Harvey and Lee folks think this is Lee and the Sept., 1959 date is correct.  But, on the photo from his book he said this photo was taken in February, 1958.

lee-hunting-robert-said-in-feb-1958-1.jp

I am going to take his word on Feb., 1958.  This is Harvey as revealed by his hairline recession, earlobes, narrow nose, and chin.  This can't be Lee in Feb., 1958 because he was on maneuvers in the South China Sea or near Subic Bay, Philippines at the time.  If the Sept., 1959 date is correct it is still not Lee.  Robert Oswald's statements are problematic.

 

You are highlighting some confusion on behalf of Robert Oswald. Vada's parents, who owned the farm, said Oswald visited only on two occasions. Once in 1962, when he came back from Russia, and once before he entered the Marines. On both occasions they said he went rabbit hunting. Vada's dad said he noticed that Oswald's shooting skills had not improved even after his time in the Marine Corps, a statement that implies that Oswald was at the farm before the Marines.

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John Butler writes:

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This is Harvey as revealed by his hairline recession, earlobes, narrow nose, and chin.

This is a promising line of research. As far as I'm aware, other 'Harvey and Lee' enthusiasts have been reluctant to identify the specific facial features which differentiated Harvey the puny Hungarian from Lee the beefy American (or was it the other way round? I can never remember).

It might go something like this:

  • Hungarian Harvey: receding hairline, narrower nose, longer ear-lobes, squarer chin, normal-sized head.
  • American Lee: non-receding hairline, wider nose, shorter ear-lobes, more pointed chin, 13-inch head.

Of course, that's just an example. There must be many more of these subtle differences which allow the attentive viewer to distinguish between the two doppelgangers.

Mr Butler claimed some time ago that there were three Oswald doppelgangers. More recently, I'm told, he has suggested the possibility of as many as four. I don't know whether there has been any further increase, but however many doppelganger Oswalds there were, each must have had his own set of distinguishing features. It would be useful to have a definitive account of what those features were.

Would Mr Butler be able to take a look at the mugshot montage on page 48 of this thread and tell us which doppelganger is depicted in each photo, based solely on their physical characteristics? He can leave out the non-doppelganger Mexico City photos, obviously, unless he identifies those characters as either of his extra doppelgangers.

Then he could turn his attention to the two Marguerites. Or three Marguerites, or four, since each Oswald doppelganger must have had a doppelganger mother named Marguerite.

On the subject of Marguerite doppelgangers and 'Harvey and Lee' research methods, John Kowalski might want to check out Greg Parker's comment about Mr Kowalski's use of wishful thinking and jumping to conclusions as a research method:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2419p25-the-mullberry-bush#36955

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Just a gentle reminder to Jim Hargrove that there are a couple of questions he hasn't yet answered. No rush, but it would be nice to know what he has to say on these topics.

The first question was from Robert Charles-Dunne, who asked Jim nearly a week ago to provide evidence to support Jim's suggestion that Edwin Ekdahl had some sort of involvement in intelligence activities:

Quote

What do you have on Ekdahl’s intelligence connections?  Because you assert and imply much, but actual evidence (and - dare I say - “proof) has not been forthcoming.

Stop begging to debate the H&L phantasm and answer a straight question.

 The second question was from me, and was to do with a fundamental aspect of the double-doppelganger theory:

Quote

Why use two pairs of doppelgangers when you don't need any?

Why not just use a genuine American? What was the thinking behind the masterminds' decision to set up a double-doppelganger scheme when they would have had a perfectly straightforward alternative?

Again, it's a straight question, and it shouldn't be difficult for Jim to provide a straight answer.

Jim has been promoting this theory for over 20 years, so he must be able to tell us why the masterminds would have decided to recruit a couple of long-term doppelgangers when there was no need to do so.

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3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It might go something like this:

  • Hungarian Harvey: receding hairline, narrower nose, longer ear-lobes, squarer chin, normal-sized head.
  • American Lee: non-receding hairline, wider nose, shorter ear-lobes, more pointed chin, 13-inch head.

Closer:

Russian Harvey/Hungarian?- receding hairline both sides/comb overs, long and narrow nose, earlobes, narrow chin.

American Lee- More hair than Harvey, wider nose, no earlobes, broad, but short chin.

Harvey-and-Lee-as-young-children-a.jpg

Can you see the difference between these two children?

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23 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I just watched the 2020 film "The Courier", which is about a businessman recruited by the CIA to spy on the Soviets during the run-up to the Cuban Missile Crisis, and I couldn't help but think of Ekdahl.

Saw that movie as well and what you said about Ekdahl made sense. He could have played a similar role as the Courier did in the USSR, in China and Japan. He could have been making observations about military technology or actively participating in operations, while maintaining a cover job as an employee of an American company operating in China.

The ending of the movie had an interesting revelation that is relevant to H&L. The real Courier, Greville Wynn, who was captured by the Soviets was exchanged for Konon Molody aka Gordon Lonsdale.

 

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33 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:
23 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I just watched the 2020 film "The Courier", which is about a businessman recruited by the CIA to spy on the Soviets during the run-up to the Cuban Missile Crisis, and I couldn't help but think of Ekdahl.

Saw that movie as well and what you said about Ekdahl made sense. He could have played a similar role as the Courier did in the USSR, in China and Japan. He could have been making observations about military technology or actively participating in operations, while maintaining a cover job as an employee of an American company operating in China.

Spectacular speculation.

Got the slightest evidence to bolster this “could have been” scenario?

Didn’t think so.

Maybe you could trouble Denny and Jim H. to see if they have located ANY SINGLE BIT OF EVIDENCE FOR THIS?      

You’ve all suggested it, but you’ve all come up blank when asked for a scintilla of evidence.  Not the way it works.

He worked for EBASCO for the last 3 years of WW 2, but stayed stateside:

EBASCO was quite clear in stating of his ten year tenure with them: “The record did not indicate the area of the United States in which Mr. Ekdahl worked from 1943 to 1953....”

37 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

The ending of the movie had an interesting revelation that is relevant to H&L. The real Courier, Greville Wynn, who was captured by the Soviets was exchanged for Konon Molody aka Gordon Lonsdale.

The mention of Lonsdale only serves to remind one that the foundational predicate used in H&L - Gordon Lonsdale - bears precisely ZERO relevance to the alleged H&L project.  Lonsdale was one Soviet kid who was supplied with the id papers for a dead Canadian kid and grew up westernized.  Where’s his doppelganger?  Because he seems to be short, to the tune of one.

In what way does that relate to H&L?  Well, it doesn’t.  And the repetition of a falsehood doesn't make it true.

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Posted (edited)

Jim, John and Denny:

While researching Louis M. Bloomfield I found a letter written by him to Mr. and Mrs. Max Meyer who lived in Westport CT in 1967. Mrs. Tippit, who received the anonymous call after JFK assassination, resided there in 1967 and lived about a 9 minute drive away.  Westport CT is a small town, maybe the Meyers knew the Tippits or maybe not. Most likely a coincidence that Bloomfield knew someone who lived nearby the Tippits.

Has anyone heard of Marguerite Maher, America First organizer for Yorkville section, and Willie Myer and Edward Meyer who were active in American nationalist party? John Armstrong mentioned a document saying that there was a Marguerite Oswald connected to poopoo activities in New Jersey, maybe they knew each other?

https://archive.org/details/westport-ct_202107

Edited by John Kowalski
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On 7/5/2021 at 8:17 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

John A. has a write-up somewhere about a woman renting a room near "Marguerite Oswald" claiming she heard, late at night, "Marguerite" speaking on the phone in a foreign language that wasn't, she thought, either German or Spanish.  This is from my (always suspect) memory. Could it have been Russian?

 

On 7/6/2021 at 9:54 AM, John Kowalski said:

It was Beulah Bratton who overheard Marguerite speaking, when they briefly shared an apartment together.

I'd like to read more on Bratton, if possible. If it's true ( Bratton overhearing Marguerite speaking a language that wasn't English, Spanish, or German), it certainly seems significant.

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4 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

I'd like to read more on Bratton, if possible. If it's true ( Bratton overhearing Marguerite speaking a language that wasn't English, Spanish, or German), it certainly seems significant.

Was able to locate a few addresses none of which correspond to her time with Marguerite. John Armstrong spoke to her but did not ask how they became roommates or her address. He believes that they may have been living together at Marguerite's place and that Harvey was not there when they were roommates. 

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Jim:

Do you know if John every wrote about the National Committee for a Free Europe? This organization found jobs for refugees from Communist countries i.e. Eastern Europeans, so they could help prepare for the liberation of Europe. This organization would be a good place for clandestine operators to locate individuals to be sent back to Eastern Europe.

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14 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Jim:

Do you know if John every wrote about the National Committee for a Free Europe? This organization found jobs for refugees from Communist countries i.e. Eastern Europeans, so they could help prepare for the liberation of Europe. This organization would be a good place for clandestine operators to locate individuals to be sent back to Eastern Europe.

Thanks for recalling the name Beulah Bratton.  It’s an interesting story, but I don’t think even John A. can add much more to it.  He’s said more than once that he wished he could go back to some of his early interviews and ask more questions.  

Don’t think I’ve come across a reference to “National Committee for a Free Europe,” though its hard to ignore the similarity to Radio Free Europe, which was associated with a host of familiar names, including Allen Dulles, Frank Wisner and Philip Graham.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/5/2021 at 9:41 PM, John Butler said:

Jim,

I'm glad your taking a second look at the "hunter" photo.  I am always uncomfortable when my ideas diverge from yours and John Armstrong's ideas.  If you recall when we were going over photos of Oswald my original call on that photo was Lee Oswald.  That photo simply did not look like Harvey.  I changed my mind after doing work on Harvey's DPD mug shot and identifying things that are unique to Harvey.  Then I read the notation typed at the top of the photo.  And, subsequently learned that this photo was from Robert's book.  February, 1958 is the clincher that this was Harvey.  

I know Robert later changed this to Sept, 1959 when Oswald got out of the Marines.  But, I didn't warm up to this due to reading hundreds of witness testimonies in Dealey Plaza.  There the first testimony was always preferable to later statements that changed what the first statements said.  If the February, 1958 date is correct then that has to be Harvey.  Lee was out in the South China seas or in the Philippines.  Harvey was AWOL in New Orleans or other places.

Harvey's photos would be like the "hunter" photo if he didn't have his hair cut where he could use comb overs to hide the receding hair lines.  He was very successful with this hair style and most people would not or did not see his real hair state.  After being beat up in the Texas Theater and I suspect during interrogation at the DPD, photos there reveal the true state of his hair problems.

John, for decades, I’ve always thought the opposite about LHO's receding hairline.  Although we’re ALL suspicious of the photographic record of “Lee Harvey Oswald” (from the perspectives of both misrepresentation and alteration), the methodology John A. used was to group photos of the two Oswalds according to what he felt was the best biographical evidence available and then post the corresponding mugshots regardless the facial details and overall appearance.

Look at the photo montage below from the H&L homepage.  In this collection, John felt that the overall evidence indicated that the top row of portraits SHOULD be of American-born Lee, while the bottom row SHOULD show Russian-speaking Harvey.

H&L%20multiple.jpg

Note the images for 1956, 1957, and 1958 in the top row.  John A. believes all three SHOULD show Lee.  You can clearly see the receding hairline in these pix.  In the top row for 1959 is the photo attached to the 1959 passport application filed by Harvey.  John believes this is actually a photo of LEE, but note the hairline.

Incidentally, do you have a clear image of Jack White’s poster called “THE EVOLUTION OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD”?  It has more than 80 mugshots of our boy(s) and might be useful for you in your analyses.

I’ll try to look some more into the hunter photo, but as soon as I started looking into the evidence I found it difficult to trust Robert’s dating of it, and so may take some time.  Note Tony K’s summary of the farm owners (Vada Oswald’s parents) remembrances at the top of p. 99 here.  And here is John A’s summary from H&L p. 209.

NOTE: On November 22 , 1963, FBI Agent Charles Brown interviewed Robert Oswald and reported, "He only saw his brother one time during the period of time he was in the service, at which time Lee came home on furlough to Fort Worth. "Robert Oswald's wife, Vada, said that Lee Oswald took leave four or five months after she and Robert were married (they were married in November, 1956). This would place Lee Oswald's first visit to Fort Worth in March, 1957 which agrees with the Marine Corps records and L. M. McCracken's memory (Marguerite's neighbor) of seeing Lee Oswald when he visited his mother at 3830 W. 6th.

On February 20, 1964 Robert told the Warren Commission that he and his brother had hunted at the farm (his in laws farm) on two occasions and placed one of those dates at September, 1958. It is probable that Robert saw his brother, Lee, during two separate Marine leaves-in March, 1957 and November, 1958.
 

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks for recalling the name Beulah Bratton.  It’s an interesting story, but I don’t think even John A. can add much more to it.  He’s said more than once that he wished he could go back to some of his early interviews and ask more questions.

It would be nice to speak to her again or to her daughter who was a home room teacher for either Lee or Harvey. However, her daughter was born in 1928, if still alive she would be 93.

Marguerite's addresses would be difficult to research because she moved around a lot. If she lived less than a year in a place then the city directory or telephone book may not have a listing for her. The addresses I have been able to locate for Beulah are in Fort Worth, so that may be where they lived together. My documents show that Beulah and her husband lived together from 1930 until his death in 1965. So when did they live together, sometime after 1965 or did Marguerite live with them when her husband was still alive?

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Posted (edited)

When did Robert Oswald see his brother in reference to the “hunter” photo?

Tony Krome

“You are highlighting some confusion on behalf of Robert Oswald. Vada's parents, who owned the farm, said Oswald visited only on two occasions. Once in 1962, when he came back from Russia, and once before he entered the Marines. On both occasions they said he went rabbit hunting. Vada's dad said he noticed that Oswald's shooting skills had not improved even after his time in the Marine Corps, a statement that implies that Oswald was at the farm before the Marines.

Jim Hargrove

“NOTE: On November 22 , 1963, FBI Agent Charles Brown interviewed Robert Oswald and reported, "He only saw his brother one time during the period of time he was in the service, at which time Lee came home on furlough to Fort Worth. "Robert Oswald's wife, Vada, said that Lee Oswald took leave four or five months after she and Robert were married (they were married in November, 1956). This would place Lee Oswald's first visit to Fort Worth in March, 1957 which agrees with the Marine Corps records and L. M. McCracken's memory (Marguerite's neighbor) of seeing Lee Oswald when he visited his mother at 3830 W. 6th.

On February 20, 1964 Robert told the Warren Commission that he and his brother had hunted at the farm (his in laws farm) on two occasions and placed one of those dates at September, 1958. It is probable that Robert saw his brother, Lee, during two separate Marine leaves-in March, 1957 and November, 1958.”

The ”hunter” photo from Robert Oswald’s book says the date was February, 1958.

Lee: A Portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald by His Brother Hardcover – January 1, 1967

by Robert L Oswald (Author), Myrick Land (Collaborator), Barbara Land (Collaborator)

 

lee-hunting-robert-said-in-feb-1958-1.jp

The President's Commission met at 9:30 a.m., on February 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE, Washington, D.C. Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members. Also present were Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

“Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in-between the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I feel sure was it Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my brother-in-law went hunting.
Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia?
Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans.”

“…Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that?
Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine Corps.
Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And at which time, if I may correct myself there, another time comes to mind, I recall two times that we had this type of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. [When was this is the question] I don't recall of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I don't recall of anything.
The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he returned from Russia, [This would have been in 1962] during his stay at my home in Fort Worth, that my wife and I and our children took him and his wife and child out to the farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. I believe this was on a Sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long.
Mr. JENNER. What weapons did you use on that occasion?
Mr. OSWALD. On that occasion, I believe the same weapons we used before.
Mr. JENNER. Would that be true of all three occasions? [Three occasions?]
Mr. OSWALD. I believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion that Lee came home on leave, that at that time I only owned one .22 rifle.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the semiautomatic?
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt action rifle, with a clip on it. However, I believe Lee either used my brother-in-law's rifle
Mr. JENNER. Was that a bolt-action rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. He either used that rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another .22 that was out at the farm.
Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action weapon?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions that you recall hunting with Lee he employed a bolt- action rifle?
Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.”

I believe we have enough information to form a timeline concerning the hunter photo.

Pre-Sept., 1956- Tony Krome has provided information from Vada’s parents, Vada’s dad that Oswald visited the farm prior to being in the Marines for hunting.

February, 1957- Jim Hargrove relates that “Robert Oswald's wife, Vada, said that Lee Oswald took leave four or five months after she and Robert were married (they were married in November, 1956). [This is why this date is selected for 4 months]

March, 1957- Jim also said “This would place Lee Oswald's first visit to Fort Worth in March, 1957 which agrees with the Marine Corps records and L. M. McCracken's memory (Marguerite's neighbor) of seeing Lee Oswald when he visited his mother at 3830 W. 6th.”  David Josephs timeline indicates this was Harvey rather than Lee. [Could this Feb. or March date of 1957 be recalled inaccurately by Robert Oswald?]

March, 1957- David adds this about Lee, “Robert tells an FBI agent he sees his brother ONCE, Feb/Mar 57, while his testimony adds "Sept 58" although it was Nov-Dec 58”

February, 1958- Lee: A Portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald by His Brother Hardcover – January 1, 1967.  This “hunter” photo says that the date for the hunting visit was February, 1958.

 

September, 1959- In his WC testimony Robert Oswald said, “I recall two times that we had this type of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. [When was this is the question?] I don't recall of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I don't recall of anything.”

 

September, 1959- Robert’s recollection of the Sept., 1959 visit is more specific and identifies the time of the hunting photo incident.  “Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action weapon?
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.”  This part of the interrogation indicates the date was in Sept., 1959.

 

1962?- ”The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he returned from Russia, during his stay at my home in Fort Worth,”

 

Of the witnesses, Vada Oswald, Vada’s parents, and Robert Oswald more or less agree that Oswald visited Vada Oswald’s dad’s farm after his visit to the Soviet Union.  The problem arises when we consider the date for Oswald’s visit the farm for hunting in or around the period 1957 to 1959.  When was it?  And, from the evidence presented above how could you prove it?

 

My best guess is Feb., 1957.  This is from the statement of Vada Oswald indicating a period 4 or 5 months after her wedding to Robert.  Feb., 1957 is also the time that David Josephs puts Harvey Oswald in Dallas.  Why not Robert’s version of Feb., 1958 on the photo.  Or, his Sept., 1959 date before the WC.  Tony Krome thinks Robert was confused.  Maybe?  Or, maybe he was telling the WC version of events in 1964.  Perhaps, later in the book in 1967 he recalled things a bit closer to the truth when he said Feb., 1958.   

Tony is right, maybe.  Confusion based on a poor memory?  Jim Hargrove makes this statement in contradiction: “On February 20, 1964 Robert told the Warren Commission that he and his brother had hunted at the farm (his in laws farm) on two occasions and placed one of those dates at September, 1958.”

Jim may have made a typo here saying Sept., 1958 instead of what Robert Oswald’s testimony indicates as Sep., 1959.  If not please reply with more info.

If anyone wants to add to this timeline please post new information. 

The Feb., 1957 date works for Harvey Oswald.  From David Josephs timeline Harvey Oswald was on leave at “ON LEAVE at 3830 W 6th #3”.   The Feb., 1958 does not for Lee Oswald.  He was in the area of the South China Sea or the Philippines. 

David Josephs timeline has Lee Oswald at Camp Pendleton from “20 Jan 1957 - 26 Feb 1957 'A' Company . 1st Battalion” and “Robert tells an FBI agent he sees his brother ONCE, Feb/Mar 57, while his testimony adds "Sept 58" although it was Nov-Dec 58”

Though the Sep. 1959 date given by Robert Oswald in his WC testimony is 3 years before the book photo, it is probably what the WC required for the Official Story. 

As with most JFKA events what you find is confusion and contradiction.

I now favor the Feb. or March, 1957 date.  This could be from poor memory by Vada Oswald for 1957 or Robert Oswald when he or his collaborators typed the date of Feb., 1958 on the photo.  I don’t think Vada’s memory was poor since she mentioned the time as after her wedding which she would not have forgotten.  David Josephs timeline has Harvey in Ft. Worth in Feb., 1957.

Sorry, this editor has done strange things to font and size here.

 

Edited by John Butler
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