Mark Zaid, JFK and Trump

[Bob Ness]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Now are both Forbes and Gallup part of the RT network also.

That is who Parry reports on in this article.  He also notes that Russia had three times the pension amounts that Ukraine offered.  And since the overthrow those Ukraine pensions had been cut further.  Note what Nuland said:  well work harder.  How hard do you think she and her hubby work?

Crimea did not want to be part of the fascist Ukraine state. And unless you think Gallup rigged its polls, that was proven out a year later.

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/22/crimeans-keep-saying-no-to-ukraine/

It wasn't proven this was the case BEFORE the annexation Jim. After the annexation? Really? Do you think Gallup moved the refugees back and deported the new Russian arrivals out? Russia offering better pensions than a country they destabilized? That's a virtue? Or is it buying support? Either way I'm sure it's not simple but since the fall of the Soviet Union, when the US had a chance to keep Russia from falling into a kleptocracy, our policies have been at best ineffectual. This is a section from a comment from Parry's article:

My wife is an eastern Ukrainian, originally born in the Russian far east, and her kids are Ukrainian citizens. One is still living there and traveling back and forth to Russia, Europe and America doing business. They and their friends, all highly educated, never liked Ukrainian politicians which always end up wealthy (like in America) and crooked. To them this started with the people wanting change and a government that serves the people not its self, just like we want here (in America that’s getting harder to find too). But they have universal medical care we’ll never be allowed to get!
They do NOT like Putin’s Russia and think the nationality bit from either side is nonsense. Actually few there are supporting this nonsense and DO want to be part of Europe. Russia has nothing to offer, even to their own people under Putin.
In the Crimea, Ukrainians must now become Russian citizens or they will lose their property. If you think they like Putin’s Russia, your fooled.

 

[Bob Ness]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

1.Bob, you did not read that story i posted.  Gallup and Forbes admitted a year later that Crimea did not want to be part of Ukraine, they wanted to be part of Russia for a lot of different reasons.  For one, the economic mess that is Ukraine.   Also, Russia did not invade Crimea.   They already had a military force there.

2. Is Marvin Kalb part of RT? This is what he wrote about the neo Nazis in Ukraine under the Bandera influence:

Describing the neo-fascist flavor of the Maidan protests, Kalb writes that a number of far-right groups who were increasingly at the center of the action “would have made the Nazi-era Gestapo look like a happy band of bigots and bandits.”

Nazi symbols on helmets worn by members of Ukraine’s Azov battalion. (As filmed by a Norwegian film crew and shown on German TV)

Kalb, unlike many of his peers in the think tank community (Kalb is a nonresident fellow at the Brookings Institution) also notes with distaste that a leader of the neo-Nazi Azov battalion was named chief of police in post-Maidan Kiev. “Instead of reining in far-right militias,” writes Kalb, Kiev “has actually been providing them with tanks and armored personnel carriers.”

Kalb is equally clear-eyed about the tactics that Ukraine’s new leaders employed to garner Western aid. “A number of unethical Ukrainian politicians” seem to have found the magic formula, which, according to Kalb, is this: “bedazzle the West into believing that Ukraine is a vital strategic asset in a continuing East-West struggle between democracy and autocracy, between freedom and oppression…”

 

Who else do you think is going to step in when the "Little Green Men" and Berkut start picking off protesters in the street? There is so much documentary evidence of the violence the Berkut and  Yanukovich laid out on the Maidan during the protests that anyone can see what was happening.

I take it you're not going to blame the Ukrainians for shooting down the plane are you? Would have heard that by now I suppose.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Bob Ness

[Joe Bauer]

11 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Joe,

     Another factoid is that Trump's associates finally released the military aid to Ukraine on September 11th IMMEDIATELY after Schiff demanded to see a copy of the suppressed whistleblower report about Trump's extortion scam.

    As for the fact that Trump deliberately withheld the military aid (and a meeting with Zelensky) in an attempt to extort Zelensky's participation in a smear campaign against Joe Biden, today's testimony established it beyond any reasonable doubt.

    The only big question now is whether Trump, Fox News, and the Trump/GOP Congressional Goon Squad will succeed in distracting and gaslighting their delusional base about Trump's criminal conduct.

Watched some Fox news coverage of the hearing with Laura Ingraham last night.

There were permanent subtitles shown with her reporting that proclaimed the Democrats and their charges "Collapsed" and "Witness Burnout" in the hearing and other hyperbolic and completely biased screen scrolls.

I hardly ever watch Fox news, but their coverage of the hearing was so alternate reality biased I realized it truly is the epitome of a "Wag The Dog" propaganda machine.

The Fox News hearing coverage presentation was so far out of "Fair & Balanced" reporting context it is truly disturbing.

Carl Bernstein said recently that he believes we are in a "cold civil war" sparked by the creation and wide spread societal influence of Fox News.

Watching them last night regards the Congressional impeachment hearings, I saw this in spades first hand.

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

It wasn't proven this was the case BEFORE the annexation Jim. After the annexation? Really? Do you think Gallup moved the refugees back and deported the new Russian arrivals out? Russia offering better pensions than a country they destabilized? That's a virtue? Or is it buying support? Either way I'm sure it's not simple but since the fall of the Soviet Union, when the US had a chance to keep Russia from falling into a kleptocracy, our policies have been at best ineffectual. This is a section from a comment from Parry's article:

My wife is an eastern Ukrainian, originally born in the Russian far east, and her kids are Ukrainian citizens. One is still living there and traveling back and forth to Russia, Europe and America doing business. They and their friends, all highly educated, never liked Ukrainian politicians which always end up wealthy (like in America) and crooked. To them this started with the people wanting change and a government that serves the people not its self, just like we want here (in America that’s getting harder to find too). But they have universal medical care we’ll never be allowed to get!
They do NOT like Putin’s Russia and think the nationality bit from either side is nonsense. Actually few there are supporting this nonsense and DO want to be part of Europe. Russia has nothing to offer, even to their own people under Putin.
In the Crimea, Ukrainians must now become Russian citizens or they will lose their property. If you think they like Putin’s Russia, your fooled.

 

I like first hand accounts of the reality of Ukraine life in the context of Bob's posting above.

His wife and her children's experiences right there in the now holds rational weight imo.

[W. Niederhut]

24 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Watched some Fox news coverage of the hearing with Laura Ingraham last night.

There were permanent subtitles shown with her reporting that proclaimed the Democrats and their charges "Collapsed" and "Witness Burnout" in the hearing and other hyperbolic and completely biased screen scrolls.

I hardly ever watch Fox news, but their coverage of the hearing was so alternate reality biased I realized it truly is the epitome of a "Wag The Dog" propaganda machine.

The Fox News hearing coverage presentation was so far out of "Fair & Balanced" reporting context it is truly disturbing.

Carl Bernstein said recently that he believes we are in a "cold civil war" sparked by the creation and wide spread societal influence of Fox News.

Watching them last night regards the Congressional impeachment hearings, I saw this in spades first hand.

Carl Bernstein said two years ago that Nixon would have probably survived the Watergate scandal if he had Fox "News."

As for Ukraine-gate, the testimony of Kent and Taylor yesterday about Trump's direct role in his Ukraine extortion scam is irrefutable.  He's guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.

Trump's defenders in Congress and at Fox have NOTHING but smoke, mirrors, and shiny objects.

In a very real sense, this trial is about more than Trump's obvious crimes on behalf of Putin's oligarchic, fascist police state.

It's also about the blatant dishonesty of the Trump GOP and the right wing media.

[Douglas Caddy]

 

[James DiEugenio]

WN: In a very real sense, this trial is about more than Trump's obvious crimes on behalf of Putin's oligarchic, fascist police state.

Can you explain to me what Trump holding up aid for an inquiry into Biden had to do with Putin's oligarchic police state?

BTW, Putin's whole policy once he took over was to go after the oligarchs who ransacked Russia under Yeltsin.

[Douglas Caddy]

The four distressed amigos.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Paul:

TO my knowledge, there are no regular Russian troops in Donetsk. The Russians shipped weapons, aid and advisors there.

The reason they did is simple.  Donetsk has many Russians in it, slightly more than Ukrainians.  Once they saw what happened in the coup and Crimea, they wanted to hold a referendum.  After seeing what happened in Crimea, the Bandera/Lebed thugs said nope. And that is what started the violence.

Bob:

The violence in Maidan was not started by the police.  They were quite restrained.  It was by the Bandera/Lebed thugs.  They brought in a huge Xmas tree and the police intel unit later figured out that this was really a cover to bring in arms.  And this is what raised the violence level there. In looking at the films, the police were really too restrained.

[Bob Ness]

14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Nice work if you can get it.  Hunter Biden was not getting 50 K per month.

http://www.stationgossip.com/2019/11/ukrainian-officials-release-records-of.html

 

 

The hypocrisy of this is stunning. Any Trump supporter/defender who calls this into question as some sort of response to Trumps clear and unchallenged corruption at not only the SUBJECT OF THE IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS (namely - since that isn't clear to everyone - Bribery and Extortion for personal gain using tax payer money and the office of the President) but also his children's and his business' untold millions of dollars of rewards due to his office, is not credible. True or not, that's a jaw-dropper, especially considering the source of the article.

Just to add onto that thought... Who here in this thread is using the famous names of Hollywood Oscar winners to promote a project? THERE IS NO CRIME IN THAT. I congratulate anyone who is able to parlay their name or the father's or whomsoever because it's promotable. Welcome to Hollywood! Attach a name or get lost.

Biden's position being predicated on the idea that he was the Vice President's son is distasteful at worst, but ordinary in the extreme. To highlight that as some sort of sin of magnitude is ridiculous. Solomon's children (if he has any) will almost surely trade their father's name for advantage. If there is true corrupt acts made as a result then let's see the charging documents.

If not, let's add it into the myriad of deflections Trumpsters are so fond of when it comes to disassembling the constitution in the name of their hero, the narcissist in chief.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Bob Ness

[Bob Ness]

Here's an interesting document. Nellie's Excel file of Trump contacts with Russians and Ukrainians. This was paid for apparently by Republicans. Makes interesting reading for further research.

https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JW-v-DOJ-Ohr-comms-production-6-01854-pgs-300-312.pdf

[W. Niederhut]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

WN: In a very real sense, this trial is about more than Trump's obvious crimes on behalf of Putin's oligarchic, fascist police state.

Can you explain to me what Trump holding up aid for an inquiry into Biden had to do with Putin's oligarchic police state?

BTW, Putin's whole policy once he took over was to go after the oligarchs who ransacked Russia under Yeltsin.

     I was referring to Ambassador William Taylor's Congressional testimony yesterday about the critical importance of U.S. diplomatic and military support for the Zelensky government in their current border war with the Russian Federation.

    Taylor and other Ukraine experts, including George Kent, Fiona Hill, and Vindman, were deeply concerned that Trump's conduct toward the Zelensky government -- withholding military aid and a White House meeting-- would be interpreted by the Kremlin as evidence of tepid U.S. support for Ukraine.

     

[Bob Ness]

31 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

     I was referring to Ambassador William Taylor's Congressional testimony yesterday about the critical importance of U.S. diplomatic and military support for the Zelensky government in their current border war with the Russian Federation.

    Taylor and other Ukraine experts, including George Kent, Fiona Hill, and Vindman, were deeply concerned that Trump's conduct toward the Zelensky government -- withholding military aid and a White House meeting-- would be interpreted by the Kremlin as evidence of tepid U.S. support for Ukraine.

     

It's also indication that Trump is curiously pliant to the goals of the RF. Putin plays him like a cheap fiddle. Ukelele maybe?

Edited November 15, 2019 by Bob Ness

[Jeff Carter]

The concept that Russia is an aggressive revanchist state has been developed and promoted by xenophobic right wing fanatics in some of the former USSR satellites. Their viewpoints have been supported by the US and the EU/NATO because it served their interests to do so. The primary example of alleged Russian aggression has occurred in Ukraine, and the US/NATO description of what occurred has been devoid of all context and subject to key omissions. Most troubling, this flawed narrative has been used deliberately to stoke international tensions, with the terrible result of NATO/Russian arsenals in close proximity and a return to the Cold War possibility of a devastating nuclear conflict through accident or misunderstanding. I don’t understand how anyone could see this as positive or desirable.

A decade ago, Ukraine required an influx of money and investment and it was negotiating potential loans with the EU and with Russia. The negotiations led to the EU’s proposed Association agreement, which, once the details were released in September 2013, mandated separation from long-standing economic ties to Russia, which would have devastated Ukraine’s economy ($25 billion or so of activity would be halted with nothing immediate in its place). The attendant austerity program tied to the IMF loans would only have further impoverished the population with the attendant deep cuts in public spending, including energy subsidies (i.e. home heating). Russia, in turn, offered loans with no similar attached strings. Rather than acting as “Putin’s puppet”, the decision to accept the Russian deal rather than the EU’s, made sense from a variety of perspectives.

A minority faction in Ukraine desired an EU Association agreement for ideological reasons. They tacked their grievance onto the nascent Maidan protests, and promoted the false idea there was a binding legal requirement to accept the EU’s terms. Officials from the US and EU started to make appearances at the Maidan protests, encouraging support for the EU Association based on vague generalities such as “shared values”, which found some resonance in support particularly because the nasty details were rarely discussed. The Maidan protests were  ramped up with this foreign meddling, a murky false flag event occurred, and the resulting hysteria quickly led to a putsch by the ideological faction which was promptly recognized as “legitimate” by the US, UK and Canada - a decision which had no basis in international law or the Ukraine Constitution. It was a morally and intellectually bankrupt decision, which still apparently finds favour inside the US State Dept.

The alleged Putin/Russian aggression at the time of the coup amounted to proposing a better loan agreement.

[Jeff Carter]

Since the late eighteenth century, Russia’s only warm water naval facility has been based in Crimea, which was fully part of Russia/USSR until 1991, when it became part of Ukraine due to Kruschev’s “gifting” the peninsula in the 1950s. The Crimean naval facilities have long been recognized as vital to Russia’s national self defence. Beginning in the late 1990s, when NATO reneged on its agreements not to expand eastward from Germany, the status of the Russian Federation’s “leasing” of these facilities from Ukraine has been discussed in security circles. For example, in 2004 NATO  sponsored an analysis of what might occur if such leases were discontinued. It was determined that Russia would seize the facilities, and it would take a shooting war to reverse that.

Ukraine’s coup government almost immediately let it be known that they would be seeking to annul the leases and they would apply for NATO membership. On national security grounds, there is zero possibility that Russia’s military would remove themselves from their naval facilities, let alone turn it over to NATO. What happened in 2014 was a swift bloodless resolution to this sticking issue. If the Russians did not do it as they did, then Crimea would inevitably have become at the very least a huge international crisis, on the level of Berlin 1961. Tellingly, NATO’s leadership pretended to be shocked when in fact they knew exactly what would occur, and NATO members had stoked the whole event in the first place. Seeking international conflict and stoking international crises is bad policy and another instance of intellectual and moral bankruptcy. Yet somehow a significant amount of people, including on this board, think the ones who resolved a crisis are the ones to blame.