Mark Zaid, JFK and Trump

[Jeff Carter]

6 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

We  shouldn't ignore the long-time Russian identity in Crimea nor should we fail to recognize the ethnic cleansing (up to 10 million dead) in the early 30's that brought lots of Russians into Ukraine.

Ukraine was a region of Russia for far far longer than it has ever been a separate identity. The history is more complicated and fluid than simplistic “ethnic cleansing” narratives. Current NATO policy is based entirely on ignoring Russian identity in Crimea. Internal Ukraine politics in 2014 were akin to red state/blue state divide. The blue states overthrew the elected red state government and demanded the red states fall in line, and one red state region held a referendum and left, and two red state regions took up arms and declared federated autonomous powers but are not seeking separation.

4 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

 Ukraine's motives for divesting itself of the influence of it's neighbor's "mafia-state" are pretty obvious. The motives for Russia resisting further decay of their access to their former satellites' resources and subservience is more obvious.

There’s nothing in the public record that supports the concept that Ukraine specifically decided to divest from the influence of a “mafia-state” or that Russia in turn sought “subservience”. You’ve made that up.

Ukraine needed a bail out package and was inclined to accept an offer from EU/IMF except the late arriving fine print revealed they were being offered a very very bad deal. That is in the public record. The Russians then put together a better deal. Public record.

4 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Ukraine gets to benefit from the benevolence of that economic super power Russia? Huh? As opposed to the EU and United States?

The EU offer demanded exclusivity, which in practice meant the curtailment of sizeable economic activity with the Russian Federation with no immediate countervailing activity from the EU. That was in the fine print. It would have been a Great Depression level event, as was noted at the time. Plus the Ukraine would be required by the IMF to institute an austerity program on its population, targeting specifically home heating subsidies, and they would have to open their agricultural lands to international investors while rescinding bans against GMO farming. That’s all in the public record.

4 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

How do you know "a minority faction" wanted inclusion in the EU? For ideological reasons? Why wouldn't they want to exit out from under the thumb of Russia and join the EU for economic reasons?

An ideological minority faction can be identified because they were very vocal about their intentions during the months of the Maidan protests. This includes the diaspora Ukrainians who were settled after WW2 in the same countries which would later recognize the coup - US, UK, Canada. Some of those people are now part of “Ukraine-gate”, and Canada’s current Foreign Minister was a partisan player in Kiev at the time. This faction espoused “common values” and downplayed the austerity program. They are not the same as the nazis from western Ukraine, but accepted and appreciated the nazis for adding “muscle” to the Maidan. This tendency can be described as a "minority" because its political representatives were such, and statistical analysis of protests across Ukraine in the months corresponding to the Maidan do not support a groundswell movement.

4 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

The EU and US were trying to invite the Ukraine into the western sphere and Russia, for a variety of reasons, wasn't going to have it.

That is the fairy-tale version. The onerous terms of the EU Association were the active ingredient, not any Russian meddling.

[Bob Ness]

12 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

That is the fairy-tale version. The onerous terms of the EU Association were the active ingredient, not any Russian meddling.

Oh really Jeff? Do tell? FACT: What about the new Russian passports being offered up in Ukraine? Sound familiar?

I'll tend to the other points you've made about pre-Maidan Ukraine being Vallhala later.

[Kirk Gallaway]

A change of pace: A little levity.

https://youtu.be/LuwW4PYpzhM

 

[Douglas Caddy]

From the article: “At the same time that Rudy Giuliani and his now-indicted pals were pushing for President Donald Trump to remove Amb. Marie Yovanovitch from her post in Ukraine, Trump administration officials were eyeing potential contenders to take over her job. One of the people in the mix, according to three sources familiar with the discussions, was Rep. Pete Sessions, a former Congressman who called for Yovanovitch’s firing,” The Daily Beast reported Thursday night. “He is also a longtime ally of the former New York Mayor, and is believed to have taken millions of dollars from Giuliani’s indicted cronies.”

 

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/11/giuliani-henchman-showered-republican-with-cash-and-trump-almost-made-him-ambassador-to-ukraine-report/

[W. Niederhut]

Frank Bruni nailed it this morning...

To Excuse Trump, Republicans Embrace Fantasy

The impeachment hearings showcase their mental limberness and ethical elasticity.

November 15, 2019

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/15/opinion/republicans-impeachment-hearing.html?action=click&auth=login-email&login=email&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

[W. Niederhut]

Interestingly, on the same day that Frank Bruni published the above op-ed, Russ Baker's WhoWhatWhy website has published an interview with psychiatrist Robert J. Lifton about the same subject -- the alternate "reality" fantasy world of the Trump Cult.

Has America Lost Its Grip on Reality?

https://whowhatwhy.org/2019/11/15/has-america-lost-its-grip-on-reality/

 

[James DiEugenio]

I said nothing about about Pelosi and Kerry.  And there is more to Hunter Biden than the MSM is letting on.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-companys-campaign-to-burnish-its-image-stretched-beyond-hunter-biden-11573154199

[Kirk Gallaway]

Ok, so we're trying to assess the credibility of statements from Snopes as proposed to Robert????

Hmmmm, could be a tough choice for you, Jim.

Re:  Yovanovych,    in the silent testimony a couple of weeks ago, I was very impressed with the way that woman walked through the parking lot. It will be interesting to see what those Repub male pigs try to do with her. Could be checkmate.  if  they're smart they'll just try to act like it had nothing to do with the phone call. But so what? It's obvious they're trying to set up events leading up to the phone call.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Kirk Gallaway

[James DiEugenio]

I said nothing about about Pelosi and Kerry.  And there is more to Hunter Biden than the MSM is letting on.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-companys-campaign-to-burnish-its-image-stretched-beyond-hunter-biden-11573154199

[Kirk Gallaway]

so... i assumed that bared repeating??

Jim, for once it's not about you. Kathy was referring to statements from Robert.

Jim if you're watching Fox, like me. Roger Stone, guilty on all 7 charges!

Edited November 15, 2019 by Kirk Gallaway

[Joe Bauer]

So far the appropriate take on Ambassador Yankovitch's testimony has to be a devastating one regards Trump/Guiliani and their shadow diplomacy scheme in Ukraine and their nefarious efforts in getting Yankovitch removed and her reputation slandered.

It all sounds so thuggish, especially Trump's phone call statement "well, she's going to go through some things." which Yankovitch said made her feel "threatened."

Her testimony paints the worst possible view of this Trump/Guiliani campaign of undermining of her personally and our normal state department Ukraine policy in general.

Guiliani and his sleazy Ukraine Yankovitch hit team including his two Russian mob looking cohorts reminds one of Nixon's covert dirty deed performing "Plumbers" unit.

Yankovitch is coming across as highly professional, composed and credible and her testimony today will dominate the entire MSM news coverage throughout the weekend.

No wonder Trump couldn't contain his desperation and attacked Yankovitch and her reputation even while she is speaking and before she is barely through just the beginning stages of her testimony!

Even Republicans are expressing being appalled at Trump's disparaging remarks toward Yankovitch while she is testifying!

Trump's incredibly desperate behavior and actions in this personal public attacking of Yankovitch before she is even questioned by the committee members themselves is mind boggling inappropriate and clearly reveals someone who is emotionally insecure and compulsively out of control to an unfit for Presidential office degree...IMO.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

Paul, I have gone over to the Dark Syde?  Incredible statement by you.

Let us take a look at the fledgling democracy that William refers to. Which came about all because of American policy that was determined to overthrow the elected government of Ukraine and bring NATO to the Russian borders.  This was our only objective. We were not FOR anything.  The ends justified the means.   Just what did the Biden/Nuland/Obama/Pyatt policy give the people of Ukraine that made their lives better than they were?

The Bandera inspired group Azov is now part of the army and National Guard.  Its an anti Semitic group that is White Supremacist to the core. They have paramiltiary groups which patrol the streets and monitor elections for national congress.  The USA has given them grenade launchers. They have been at welcoming parties for NATO reps.  Another Bandera inspired group, Dnipro 1, has been accused of war crimes, this was a group McCain met with and praised.

Azov has recruited far and wide.  They want Ukraine to be a hub of international white supremacy and they have communicated with fellow neo Nazi groups in Germany, the UK and USA.   Azov has infiltrated the police, which is why the neo Nazi gangs control the streets with no fear.  The speaker of the parliament founded two of the Bandera inspired groups.  According to one report, "Ukrainian extremists celebrate Ukraine Nazi divisions in the middle of a major Ukrainian city."

Sounds like the people at Charlottesville to me. How about you, Kirk, William, and Bob?  But I'm still not done.

In 2015, the Ukraine parliament passed legislation making OUN heroes of the Ukraine.  (This was the Bandera, Lebed group.  Recall, these were the murdering genocidal Nazi collaborators.) They then topped that.  They made it a CRIMINAL OFFENSE to deny their heroism. In other words you cannot call a Nazi a Nazi. Or a murderer a murderer.  Sounds like 1984 to me.  To accompany this there were torchlight marches in honor of OUN. They went after the Romi with axes and clubs.

At a rally for Bandera--you know that guy Bob says does not matter since the KGB killed him in 1950--the crowd shouted "Jews Out".  In November of 2017, there was a three day festival celebrating Shukhevych, another Nazi collaborator.  It was capped with setting fire to a synagogue.  There was vandalism against Jewish cemeteries. This "fledgling democracy" now set foot to banning books which described what Bandera and Lebed had done.  

Give me a break you guys. Make no mistake.  This was all done by Biden, Obama and HRC.  Just like the debacles in Libya and Honduras. you know: "We came , we saw, he died." And you guys says, well that is OK.  

How Paul can say I have gone over to the Dark Syde in my  contempt for all this is amazing. Actually its kind of scary.

This idea, that one has to get in bed with the devil in order to embrace anything that is opposed to Moscow, this is  what JFK was opposed to in his harangues against Dulles and Nixon in the fifties.  He thought it was counterproductive to what American foreign policy should be about  e.g.  the attempted overthrow in Indonesia in 1958.  

If you want to excuse all this, and brush aside what it has to do with JFK, fine get enveloped with the MSM.  But man, don't say I have gone over to the Dark Syde. 

Now, before I get Snoped, or accused of using RT or Fox as a source, please read the following:

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-far-right-vigilantes-destroy-another-romany-camp-in-kyiv/29280336.html

Note, the second one is RFE.  The Bandera thugs have even gone too far for the CIA.  

Edited November 15, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[Andrew Prutsok]

This is getting like when I quit Facebook the day after Trump was installed as president. Time to step away before I start not liking people I'm supposed to respect or love.

[Bob Ness]

1 hour ago, Robert Wheeler said:

 

Snopes! A haiku

 

I guess I should know

Beyond reproach, is just Snopes

Fact checking the globe

What you're the fact checker? Yikes! Source your claims Robert.

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Interestingly, on the same day that Frank Bruni published the above op-ed, Russ Baker's WhoWhatWhy website has published an interview with psychiatrist Robert J. Lifton about the same subject -- the alternate "reality" fantasy world of the Trump Cult.

Has America Lost Its Grip on Reality?

https://whowhatwhy.org/2019/11/15/has-america-lost-its-grip-on-reality/

Robert Lifton didn’t exactly discuss “the alternate ‘reality’ fantasy world of the Trump Cult.”

He discussed recognized techniques of narrative shaping as practiced by authoritarian political circles and religious cults. He points out that excessive polarization produces extreme partisanship, and in such situations the heightened partisan identity dulls  critical thinking capability.

He also points out:

“Trump didn’t create the polarization, though he greatly intensified it and that polarization includes a de-legitimation of opposition. If you have something called a loyal opposition, you have a country that is functioning according to its rules of law and the rule of law in general, but if you have a party or a group that de-legitimates the other side or the opposition of any kind, considers it not to have the right to contest their own realities, then you are creating the seeds and the context for what I call malignant normality.”

Just my observation, but the embrace of a now discredited narrative of “Russian collusion”, led by factions of the intelligence agencies and pushed hard by Congressional Democrats, is largely responsible for the current insanity. The Trump years were completely survivable in a “loyal opposition” framework, and instead your country is on the edge of melt-down over issues that don’t begin to address or resemble actual current challenges.

Several of us on these topics have tried very hard to keep discussion in the realm of a “reality-based community”, which includes sorting out what is an “established fact” and what isn’t, and our efforts have faced exactly the sort of extreme hyper-partisanship which Lifton correctly points out leads to poor analysis and hopeless polarization. This faulty logic is often expressed by labels of “fascist” or Trump cultist”, or whatever, directed at whoever challenges the current partisan group-think.