David Josephs Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 On page 19 of FBI Summary Report WCD1 is the following image of the front and back of the Postal Money Order... Something you will notice when you go to the link and look at the large version of this image.... The background is consistent within and outside the images of the money order as if anything that was not the background, is transparent. The FBI tag to the left, the one in the middle as well as the PMO all show the tiny-dotted background, rotated left somewhat so the dots run diagonally... That, of course is not possible. It appears as if the copy was made onto this paper yet I still cannot figure out how the background remains uninterrupted... nor does the PMO itself show any substance/color of its own. Now look at the PMO below this.... a B&W created version from the huge color original beneath it.. smooth paper https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/010/10402/images/img_10402_120_200.jpg Please notice things like the bleed thru of GRIMES' signature over the "PAY THIS AMOUNT" box from the back. Also, no dots or moire patterns within the PMO. Furthermore, we already have a photo of a CLEAN PMO prior to GRIMES signing it on the 24th. (below) SA PARKER supposedly makes copies of the PMO after receiving it AT J HAROLD MARKS' HOME at 10:10pm in Alexandria, VA. The Secret Service will report the PMO was found in Kansas The initials are Robert H Jackson, J. Harold Marks and SA Parker... but not really the point... Even if the FBI photographed it the moment it arrived, before anyone or anything has a chance to change anything... the body of the PMO cannot have the same background as the rest of the copy paper used... We also have an HSCA copy of the PMO - a very poor copy yet since GRIMES ALREADY SIGNED IT we can see the bleed thru as we do on every other image EXCEPT Warren Commission Doc #1 - photographs in Volume 2 (Exhibits Volume 1) where all the images have the same strange background which becomes part of the documents themselves... (see below comparison of 2 different WCD1 pages) Oswald's photo, the paper application, the background and the image of the envelope all have the same pattern, which basically obscures anything useful to be seen in these photos. An extreme enlargement shows it more clearly: What am I not understanding about these images? And if this is what they looked like, we agree their value as evidence is pretty well lost. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ness Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 8 hours ago, David Josephs said: https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/010/10402/images/img_10402_120_200.jpg Ok David I'll give this a whirl. What I'm curious about is the various originating formats of these images. I don't know how they were passed along, what they were copied from or anything else but these are my comments, more about what is displayed here rather than what they started out as. This to me looks like a 24 bit .png with transparency scanned from a grey scale image with any value above about 230 rendered as an alpha or transparent channel. The value of 255 would be pure white and 0 would be black. The moire pattern is a replacement background created in the process of converting it back to a grey scale with no alpha. The missing smudges and so forth could be because the darker value was also changed to say 30 and added to the alpha channel. The remainder could be cleaned and contrast boosted before converting back to define the printing better. Does that help or are you looking for something different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 1, 2019 Author Share Posted November 1, 2019 12 hours ago, Bob Ness said: Does that help or are you looking for something different? Thanks Bob for what sounds like an experts explanation - but of a modern Photoshop process.... could they do that with 1963 copying technology? and why would the FBI go thru all the trouble and then not exclusively use these images as the exhibits instead of the actual images? Even if only in B&W like I posted...?? Instead we see numerous versions of the Money Order and NONE LOOK LIKE page 19 of WCD1 Exhibits vol 1 - they all show bleed thru from front to back and back to front EXCEPT CE2003 which appears to be a copy of FBI p19... yet notice the holes are all white now, not black... this image had to be created by putting a source doc on a piece of white paper and taking a very high contrast copy... no? And since GRIMES signs the PMO on the 24th, this must be a copy of a copy of a Photostat taken by SA PARKER Saturday night the 23rd. Again, thanks for the reply... I look forward to your response... much more below.. If your explanation is correct... why are the round and rectangular holes black instead of clear unless they took a photocopy of a photocopy where the holes were already rendered black What I don't understand is how the pattern also extends into the BLACK areas which would have been on the transparency (it appears they simply copied the source documents onto a transparency and then printed the transparency on this paper with the lines.... I repost this image since this appears more like the process you described... the complete removal of any real detail on the page EXCEPT the bleed thru is obvious... No matter how much alpha adjustment you do to the image above (the FBI WCD1 money order) you cannot remove the very hard bleed-thru signature of SA GRIMES from the 24th. Also like to know where and when the FBI WCD1 images were created... prior to the Dec report... DJ The moire pattern is consistent across all items... yet this is the only place the exhibits look like this... Are you sure about the moire? Does your explanation also apply to these images - I mean even the ruler is covered or superimposed over this pattern? And if that process was not possible in 1963 - what is the FBI doing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ness Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: Thanks Bob for what sounds like an experts explanation - but of a modern Photoshop process.... could they do that with 1963 copying technology? and why would the FBI go thru all the trouble and then not exclusively use these images as the exhibits instead of the actual images? Even if only in B&W like I posted...?? Instead we see numerous versions of the Money Order and NONE LOOK LIKE page 19 of WCD1 Exhibits vol 1 - they all show bleed thru from front to back and back to front EXCEPT CE2003 which appears to be a copy of FBI p19... yet notice the holes are all white now, not black... this image had to be created by putting a source doc on a piece of white paper and taking a very high contrast copy... no? And since GRIMES signs the PMO on the 24th, this must be a copy of a copy of a Photostat taken by SA PARKER Saturday night the 23rd. Again, thanks for the reply... I look forward to your response... much more below.. If your explanation is correct... why are the round and rectangular holes black instead of clear unless they took a photocopy of a photocopy where the holes were already rendered black What I don't understand is how the pattern also extends into the BLACK areas which would have been on the transparency (it appears they simply copied the source documents onto a transparency and then printed the transparency on this paper with the lines.... I repost this image since this appears more like the process you described... the complete removal of any real detail on the page EXCEPT the bleed thru is obvious... No matter how much alpha adjustment you do to the image above (the FBI WCD1 money order) you cannot remove the very hard bleed-thru signature of SA GRIMES from the 24th. Also like to know where and when the FBI WCD1 images were created... prior to the Dec report... DJ The moire pattern is consistent across all items... yet this is the only place the exhibits look like this... Are you sure about the moire? Does your explanation also apply to these images - I mean even the ruler is covered or superimposed over this pattern? And if that process was not possible in 1963 - what is the FBI doing here? I'll look through this some more but have to pay rent for now. One of the issues I'm talking about is just by the fact it's posted on the internet tells me it's been through a modern process (obviously) and so that has to be considered in the grand scheme of things. I'm going to look into vintage duo tone processes used in scanners and printers etc and see if I can figure something out. I don't think the moire bg was done in Photoshop or whatever. I'll be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 5, 2019 Author Share Posted November 5, 2019 I'm very interested in your answers Bob.... Especially the Money Order as I have chased that down to being created in Alexandria the night of the 23rd.... There is simply no way any of those images in WCD1 reflect how things actually looked... they all "appear" like reproductions done the exact same way. FWIW - the HSCA writing experts all concluded that since most every item they were given was a COPY and not an original, any and all conclusions are conditional on the impossibility of telling anything specific from COPIES of handwriting.... You'll notice those items which were identified as COPIES: His notes from Russia, Money Order which paid for the rifle, Hotel Register claimed to be signed on first day by Oswald (NOT!) the original copy and copy of carbon of his Cuban application (since he was not there - who filled this out?) and finally the bogus Hunt letter. this is also 15 years later... Let's stick with the Pristine image of the Money Order... the one showing no bleedthru from the back.... Removing those bleedtru initials and making the rest of the image pristine seems improbable at best, impossible most likely. SUMMARY OF CONCLUSIONS (27) With the restrictions and reservations stated in each panel member's final report,* *In particular. members noted that not all documents were available in their original . It is standard practice in the profession of questioned document examination to make definitive conclusions only about documents examined in their original. Thus the panel members gave only tentative opinions for items provided them in some type of facsimile. Limitations on the examination239(71) Five items of evidence were not examined in the original, but were copies . Photocopies have several limitations. They do not reproduce all the fine details in handwriting needed in making an examination and comparison. At best, they do not produce as sharp an image as a properly produced photograph, and they lack tonal gradations, a result of the contrasting process of reproduction . In addition, it is possible to incorporate or insert changes and alterations into copies . A method frequently used is to paste together parts of documents to makeone fraudulent document, which is then copied. If the first copy can pass inspection, it will be used ; if not, it will be reworked to eliminate all signs of alteration. This amended copy is then recopied for the finished product. This is usually referred to as the "cut and paste" method.. We refer to: Items 18, 29, 39, 40/41, 47... 18. November 15, 1959. Photocopy of handwritten account of interview with Miss Aline Mosby, UPI Reporter 29. March 12, 1963. United States Postal Money Order #2,202,130,462 39. September 27, 1963. Photocopy of a page from a hotel register 40. September 27, 1963. Photographs ... of the original of the visa application, Cuban Consulate, ... 41. September 27, 1963. Photograph of the carbon copy of item 40, shown to the Select Committee staff... 47. November 8, 1963. Photograph of a facsimile copy of a handwritten letter to Mr. Hunt (86) Photographic reproductions could only be compared visually with other photographic reproductions or with original documents.All conclusions based solely upon photographic reproductions are necessarily tentative and inconclusive, since they cannot reveal much about pen pressure and other dynamic qualities of handwriting. Further, they sometimes conceal, rather than reveal, evidence of tracings, alterations, erasures, or obliterated writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ness Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 20 hours ago, David Josephs said: I'm very interested in your answers Bob.... Especially the Money Order as I have chased that down to being created in Alexandria the night of the 23rd.... Sorry to take so long David. So far I've not been able to reproduce from the color version (converted to grayscale) a like representation of the PMO marked 19 using common tools. The values in the bleed through under "Pay This Amount" interfere with text and at this point I can only assume it was edited. I've got a few more things to try but that's my initial conclusion. The holes in the Getty image are almost certainly edited after the fact, I don't know why but I assume somebody tried doing some cleanup for some reason. Getty Images, in case you aren't aware, are risky to use without licensing them and you could run into trouble there. They usually don't warn you until you've used them for a while to drive up royalties so keep that in mind. The corrections to the hole punches could even be how Getty recognizes them for copyright purposes. Just sayin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 6, 2019 Author Share Posted November 6, 2019 5 minutes ago, Bob Ness said: Sorry to take so long David. No worries at all Bob... I found another problem with this version and the copy for the HSCA. Not only is there no bleed-thru on the FBI version.... There is no circled FBI exhibit designation above the TEX in the mail stamp"JCC D-19" Here is yet another COPY yet this too does not have the D-19 yet it appears to have punch marks in areas where there weren't any... The words "Money Order" has all sorts of white spots - same in the "FOR MORE THAN" line just before the THIRTY Dollars... How can the BLACK ARROWS of "PAY TO" and "FROM" be white... yet the bleed thru on the "PAY THIS AMOUNT" box is simply not there... Seems to me the photos of these things were both before and after the punching of the holes... How could the WCD1 FBI version not already have the "D-19" and JCC?? I look forward to your thoughts on this DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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