Oliver Stone and Judyth Baker

[Joe Bauer]

You know what's so disturbing about Bill Cosby and others like him?

We now know that behind Cosby's self-created and often smugly promoted image as some type of shining example of exceptionalism ( especially black American exceptionalism ) with his icon of intelligent humor status, his PhD, 300 million dollar fortune of wealth, long running TV show, successful record and book sales, etc. ... he was in reality a serial sexual predator monster whose perverted kick was drugging women to the point of reduced resistance and even unconsciousness where he then raped them.  With at least 50 victims!

And from what I've read, Cosby is still as arrogant and cockily non-remorseful and in denial of his sick action guilt in prison! What an absolutely corrupt and sociopathic jerk.

Our societal history is full of high status, achievement and wealth acquiring icons who are in reality deviants whose criminal charades are sometimes exposed, sometimes not.  Cosby, Weinstein, Madoff, Spectre, Epstein, Clay Shaw and on and on including politicians ( LBJ and Nixon imo. )

Jim Garrison once stated a famous quote in a speech or interview or book relating to the mistake of giving total truth expecting trust to those of high position simply because of their position and the paper documentation that supposedly validates such.

Just wanted to throw this high station corrupt reality out there even though the subject here is JVB and how much of her and her story we should rationally believe or not believe.

The woman is so often described as a pushy, shamefully and overly self-promoting shrew with a highly exaggerated and manipulated Lee Oswald love affair story that she aggressively promotes to the point of obnoxious audacity.

Yet, I personally can't get more than a 85% dismissal handle on her validity.

It's that darn 15% of somewhat believable anecdotal claims that keeps me from total doubt.

I want to doubt her and her tale ( and it's so easy to see her as personally unattractive based on her reported unpleasant traits ) but there's just enough validated documentation that proves she was at least in New Orleans when Oswald was there and had some cross-over connection with not just Oswald ( same bus line-Reilly coffee ) but other very important nefarious characters ( Oschner) and non-nefarious people like Mary Sherman.

And Baker was a highly achieving high school science student ( with newspaper write ups ) as she claimed. I don't feel she exaggerated this part of her tale at all.

And Baker's own sister does verify JVB telling her early on of an unusual love affair when JVB was in New Orleans.

Ah, so what to believe?  Guess it's just another debatable intrigue JFK event story among hundreds of others that one can make of it what they want, if only for entertaining conspiracy discussion?

Others...Silvia Odio Del Toro, Rose Cherami, Dallas Car Salesman Albert Guy Bogard's Oswald's fast test drive one and on and on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pete Mellor]

Leaving aside the delightful Judyth and her love affair with Lee/Harvey/Henry/O.H. the comment from Rose Cheramie that Ossie & Ruby were 'bedfellows' is interesting.  Oswald had early contact with Ferrie in the Civil Air Patrol, and were Ferrie's orgies with C.A.P. members once investigated by the cops?  In 63 Oswald is around Ferrie and Clay Shaw, both confirmed homosexuals.  Ruby shares his apartment with George Senator in Oak Cliff who Seth Kantor describes as once married but who preferred male company.  If I recall correctly some fellow Marines thought Oswald somewhat limp wristed too.

With JVB's Mills & Boon tale and his marriage to Marina....did the accused assassin swing it both ways?

[Pamela Brown]

19 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Yeah, that's what Bill Cosby said.

Just in general, when you do your best to treat someone fairly and go out of your way to help them, and they are appreciative and honest, you know they are probably for real. On the other hand, if you do that and they turn around and attack you, it's pretty certain they are phony.  

[Paul Brancato]

8 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

joe - maybe 15% is true. Maybe she knew him, might have had some close contact, was a good student of science etc. But she claims much more. She says she knows what’s what with Oswald, and with the JFK assassination. So she embellishes her real history with a whole lot of fake stuff, and gets herself published and headlines a JFK forum she created. Have your cake and eat it too. 

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

joe - maybe 15% is true. Maybe she knew him, might have had some close contact, was a good student of science etc. But she claims much more. She says she knows what’s what with Oswald, and with the JFK assassination. So she embellishes her real history with a whole lot of fake stuff, and gets herself published and headlines a JFK forum she created. Have your cake and eat it too. 

Joe, read Larry, Jim and many others.  Judy's full of xxxx as a Christmas Turkey.  Please don't continue to spread disinformation.   

[Sandy Larsen]

Hey Joe,

I think it's quite possible that Judyth DID work with Oswald. Maybe she even befriended him and possibly went out with him and others for dinner or whatever. Maybe she even liked him a lot. I mean, she was a very intelligent woman and I can see where it would have been wonderful for her to talk to a smart guy like Oswald. (You do know, don't you, that Oswald was a very bright guy?)

Then Oswald was killed and Judyth was devastated, but didn't buy the official story. She read the CT books about him and felt comfort in knowing she was right, that her friend wouldn't have killed a human being, let alone the president of the United States.

I can see her becoming obsessed with the case and going so far as to fantasize a more serious relationship with him. And on and on till she discovers the attention that her celebrity draws.

I'm speculating of course, but that's the way I explain the parts of her story that seem genuine.

It also explains the parts of her story that don't add up.

I kept an open mind regarding Judyth for years and planned to investigate her story some time in the future. In the meantime I kept busy studying the assassination evidence and fitting it all together like a giant jigsaw puzzle. Many times I had to move pieces of the puzzle around because they weren't fitting together well. But over time and after numerous adjustments, I came up with My Conspiracy Theory. Not a 100% complete one for sure, but maybe 70 to 80%.

I noticed at that point that, as I became aware of new pieces of evidence (new to me), they were fitting in nicely with My Conspiracy Theory. Naturally this gave me a good deal of confidence that I was on the right track. (BTW, there's a reason I'm sharing this with you. It's coming next.)

Around this time there must have been some talk on some of the threads about Judyth that piqued my interest, because I started checking out some of her claims regarding Oswald's activities.

Oh.....my......gosh. Nearly everything she claimed contradicted My Conspiracy Theory. In contrast to the stuff I was learning on the Mary Ferrill site and other sources, which did not. (Do you see where this is leading?)

I was forced to choose between either believing My Conspiracy Theory and the Mary-Ferrill-class material that we accept as real (non-fabricated), or believing in Judith's writings. I couldn't believe both. You know which I chose.

This is how I came to conclude that Judyth Vary Baker is a fraud.

JMO FWIW

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Sandy Larsen

[Joe Bauer]

14 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Joe, read Larry, Jim and many others.  Judy's full of xxxx as a Christmas Turkey.  Please don't continue to spread disinformation.   

Ron, please tell me how my post is spreading disinformation?

All I said about JVB was her presence in New Orleans during the time Oswald lived there, her employment at Reilly's Coffee ( during the same time period that Oswald worked there ) and her taking buses on the same route bus taking Oswald probably used.

These three JVB points are not true? This is disinformation?

My statement regards JVB's sister Lynda is debatable, yet isn't it at least true that JVB's sister has never come out and solidly refuted or discredited her in a public way?

Whether JVB had any "direct" contact with Ochsner or Mary Sherman is again debatable, but she should have known of them. These were well known people in their field of cancer research. The same field JVB was involved in ever since high school, correct?

JVB wasn't in New Orleans just to do nothing but flip burgers and flirt with men other than her husband Robert who was away.

What was she doing there? Anything to do with her studies? An internship with Dr. Mary Sherman?

Of course I do feel JVB exaggerates much about many things. 

Possibly including how much she "personally" interacted with Ochsner, Sherman ... and David Ferry as well? 

Yet, I still find her take on these figures, even if exaggerated, as just knowledgeable enough ( regards their covert doings ) to be interesting imo.

I think I fairly balanced my JVB take with this exaggeration aspect and a very negative take on her over-all personality and character as well.

My post wasn't a glowing JVB promotion piece.

Lastly, I relegated JVB and her Oswald tale to interesting others which have limited proof other than testimonial evidence. Like Sylvia Odio and Dallas car salesman Albert Bogard. Yet, both these stories had just enough additional back up testimony ( Odio's sister and Bogard's manager on duty that day ) to not totally dismiss them out of hand.

I know, JVB's only corroboration witness is Anna Lewis. One that comes across as less than credible. Yet, she did say what she said and is a real person who was married to real person David Lewis who has also stated an Oswald connection in NO at the relevant time.

My shared take on JVB is not one of bold and definitive claims. It is a very general take with general but not untrue points ( 3 ) as I mentioned.

Again, same employment company as Oswald and during same time period. Same bus line usage.

I believe I trash JVB sufficiently in the personal character department along the same negative take line as Pamela Brown. 

My less than 100% dismissal of JVB is really just a minor person subjective thing that I don't think threatens the JVB truth status of our top research members here.

Not heavy weight worthy enough of the disinformation charge for sure.

And maybe I just like the JVB story whether it's entirely made up?

If it's a total scam, it's creation, implementation and charged controversy that it has inspired with long term legs is a story unto itself.

I like big scam stories. Loved Richard Gere's portrayal as Clifford Irving in the fake Howard Hughes autobiography film "The Hoax." And the Melvin Dummar/Howard Hughes story as well.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

Joe Bauer said (along with a lot of other things)."All I said about JVB was her presence in New Orleans during the time Oswald lived there, her employment at Reilly's Coffee ( during the same time period that Oswald worked there ) and her taking buses on the same route bus taking Oswald probably used."

This is part of the problem, as I see it. Judyth's only documentation putting her into proximity with Lee Oswald is their both working at Reily Coffee at the same time.  But she has yet to produce a single witness to corroborate their being seen together there.  There were over 100 employees at Reily Coffee at the time.  

Other than that, she is quite the story teller.  I guess we can agree on that...

[David Andrews]

On 4/23/2020 at 4:08 PM, Pete Mellor said:

Leaving aside the delightful Judyth and her love affair with Lee/Harvey/Henry/O.H. the comment from Rose Cheramie that Ossie & Ruby were 'bedfellows' is interesting.  Oswald had early contact with Ferrie in the Civil Air Patrol, and were Ferrie's orgies with C.A.P. members once investigated by the cops?  In 63 Oswald is around Ferrie and Clay Shaw, both confirmed homosexuals.  Ruby shares his apartment with George Senator in Oak Cliff who Seth Kantor describes as once married but who preferred male company.  If I recall correctly some fellow Marines thought Oswald somewhat limp wristed too.

With JVB's Mills & Boon tale and his marriage to Marina....did the accused assassin swing it both ways?

In a Dallas milieu where the childless fun couple who adopted the Oswalds were a pair of blue-blood offspring who may have married in order to be beards for each other.  The major intel operative of the two seemed possessive of Marina, while the husband had "political" nights out with Lee. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by David Andrews

[Matt Allison]

David-  not to be too pedantic, but the Paines had children.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Matt Allison
space

[David Andrews]

24 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

David-  not to be too pedantic, but the Paines had children.

Amended.  Explains the washing machine.

From MP's obit on another thread: "They had two children, Tamarin and Chris, when they separated amicably in the fall of 1962, then continued to spend time together as a family."

Edited April 25, 2020 by David Andrews

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

In a Dallas milieu where the childless fun couple who adopted the Oswalds were a pair of blue-blood offspring who may have married in order to be beards for each other.  The major intel operative of the two seemed possessive of Marina, while the husband had "political" nights out with Lee. 

If Oswald had been gunned down around 1pm 11/22, in what kind of jackpot would Quaker Mike & Ruth have found themselves?

I dunno if I’d want to be the lefty hostess of the family of a KGB/Castro allied assassin.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Cliff Varnell

[David Andrews]

1 minute ago, Cliff Varnell said:

If Oswald had been gunned down around 1pm 11/22 in what kind of jackpot would Quaker Mike & Ruth have found themselves?

I dunno if I’d want to be the lefty hostess of the family of a KGB/Castro allied assassin.

I don't see that the outcome would have been much different.  The questions would have been harder, but Ruth had the family connection reaching to Allen Dulles that would have bought them less trouble than Buell Frazier got.  It probably came into play in the existing circumstances.  Plus having Marina, and then Marguerite in the home for a time would have given the household the hands off, investigate-and-see shield that it got with Lee in jail.  If somebody wanted either of the Paines held for questioning, it would have happened fast in either case.

I'm perhaps reaching when I posit a relationship between Michael and Lee.  I remember asking on another thread, "Why was Michael going to political meetings with Oswald if he wasn't 'on the job?' "  I believe that an informant and facilitator was as much as he was.  But I also believe that if he really said over the phone, "We both know who is responsible," as the WC asked him to confirm but he denied, then he was talking about Ruth.

[Cliff Varnell]

11 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

I don't see that the outcome would have been much different.  The questions would have been harder, but Ruth had the family connection reaching to Allen Dulles that would have bought them less trouble than Buell Frazier got.  It probably came into play in the existing circumstances.  Plus having Marina, and then Marguerite in the home for a time would have given the household the hands off, investigate-and-see shield that it got with Lee in jail.  If somebody wanted either of the Paines held for questioning, it would have happened fast in either case.

I'm perhaps reaching when I posit a relationship between Michael and Lee.  I remember asking on another thread, "Why was Michael going to political meetings with Oswald if he wasn't 'on the job?' "  I believe that an informant and facilitator was as much as he was.  But I also believe that if he really said over the phone, "We both know who is responsible," as the WC asked him to confirm but he denied, then he was talking about Ruth.

Allen Dulles and the Paines may not have been knowingly involved in framing Lee as a Commie assassin. I can see a contingency plan for a scenario in which the CIA was implicated and the Paines, E. Howard Hunt, and Allen Dulles would be sacrificed. Dulles directed the WC cover-up, after all.

[David Andrews]

7 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Allen Dulles and the Paines may not have been knowingly involved in framing Lee as a Commie assassin. I can see a contingency plan for a scenario in which the CIA was implicated and the Paines, E. Howard Hunt, and Allen Dulles would be sacrificed. Dulles directed the WC cover-up, after all.

I'd like to see that plan delineated.  No knock against you, but I can't imagine a world where any CIA officer would go down for the assassination.  The Paines would be another matter - damage to the Agency would stop there.  I understand that Hunt was dangled over the fire with teases of revealing his involvement in the 1970s, but he had Watergate to answer for, and his protector Dulles was dead.

Edited April 25, 2020 by David Andrews