Oliver Stone and Judyth Baker

[David Andrews]

Allow me to be a total pr*ck and mention that no one at these conferences is asking BWF if LHO was out on the TSBD steps.

[Pat Speer]

15 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Allow me to be a total pr*ck and mention that no one at these conferences is asking BWF if LHO was out on the TSBD steps.

I have talked with Frazier at the Bethesda conference and two different Lancer conferences. At all three conferences and in private conversations at these conferences with myself and others Frazier has been most adamant that Oswald was not on the front steps. At one of the conferences--I believe Bethesda--he was even shown a picture of prayer person and asked who this was. He said he didn't know but felt certain it was not Oswald. 

A few years back his son announced that he was helping his dad write a book on the assassination and the TSBD. I told Frazier he should spend a lot of time filling in the blanks on the employees who so many feel like they know--but don't. I talked with him for ten minutes or so on Jack Dougherty--who Frazier insists was not 'retarded' at all. As I recall he said Dougherty was actually quite a reader--which led me to suspect Dougherty was in fact autistic, and not cognitively impaired, as suggested by Truly's description of him as 'retarded.' 

In any event, I hope Frazier and his son--who works in radio--get around to putting out the book they were working on. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

Thanks, Vince, for that update. That is indeed good news. I shared a train ride with some young people who'd attended the first "Judyth" conference, and they told me all about it. Evidently, she introduced every speaker at the first few conferences, and led the attendees in a moment of silence for her supposed soul mate, etc. It's good to know one can speak at or even attend the conference without signing off on or even accepting her bona fides. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Pat Speer

[Vince Palamara]

14 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Thanks, Vince, for that update. That is indeed good news. I shared a train ride with some young people who'd attended the first "Judyth" conference, and they told me all about it. Evidently, she introduced every speaker at the first few conferences, and led the attendees in a moment of silence for her supposed soul mate, etc. It's good to know one can speak at or even attend the conference without signing off on or even accepting her bona fides. 

Yes! Judyth did NOT introduce my speech or say a word after, nor did she introduce or say anything for virtually anyone else's, as well! She was very low-key (on purpose, perhaps?). She was definitely more upfront in 2016 by a country mile.

On another note: Pat, I just watched your DVD over the weekend; great work! I put the cd case on the back of my head, as well-the wound lines up! 

[David Andrews]

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

I have talked with Frazier at the Bethesda conference and two different Lancer conferences. At all three conferences and in private conversations at these conferences with myself and others Frazier has been most adamant that Oswald was not on the front steps. At one of the conferences--I believe Bethesda--he was even shown a picture of prayer person and asked who this was. He said he didn't know but felt certain it was not Oswald. 

 

I am glad to be corrected for the record, and the record probably appreciates the update as well.

Edited December 4, 2019 by David Andrews

[Larry Hancock]

I can corroborate Pat,  we asked Frazier at two Lancer conferences and Debra took the time privately to take doorway photos and show him - they discussed them at length and he made the same remarks to her Pat described and has not changed his position in any way.   There may be things he is hesitant to talk about but for what its worth he has been consistent on this point.

[Andrej Stancak]

I would not like to carry this thread away, however, I did not ask the question regarding Mr. Frazier's statements of not seeing Lee Oswald in the doorway. It would be very helpful to ask Mr Frazier who was that man at the western wall matching Lee Oswald in a number of features such as body height, the way he stood, hairline and possibly the shirt. My view is that Mr Frazier experienced a psychological trauma on that fateful Friday and was compelled to change and even suppress few details, and the presence of Lee Oswald in the doorway would be one of them. 

To elaborate more, he and his sister Linnie Mae Randle claimed that the package Lee carried that morning was about 2 feet long, give or take an inch. Mr Frazier even demonstrated how Lee had held the elongated package with the butt resting on his palm. However, such a package could not contain a rifle which is what the Warren Commission claimed. Something has to give, so let us say that Lee carried a package longer than 2 feet and the Warren Commission was right and Mr Frazier and Mrs Randle did not speak the truth. Or, the Warren Commission altered the truthful statements of Mr Frazier and Mrs Randle, in which case we have Lee carrying something  2 feet long (curtain rods???) what Lee denied and what was not found either missing from Paine's garage or present in the Depository building. In my view, Lee actually brought his rifle to the Depository (I am aware of all the disputes surrounding the purchase of the rifle) and Mr Frazier and his sister invented a curtain rod story to allow Mr Frazier to distance himself from transporting the rifle to the building (= they did not speak the truth). If there was no elongated package in Lee Oswald's hands at all, why then was it necessary for Mr Frazier and Mrs Randle to say that Lee did carry a long package to work?

Mr Frazier was interrogated by the Dallas Police for hours as to his possible complicity in the assassination and it was a rough and shocking experience which could have caused symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. Memory lapses and avoiding discussing certain parts of events  are known symptoms in post-traumatic stress disorder. 

Mr Frazier claimed in his Warren Commission testimony not to see Lee Oswald after (if I remember correctly) 10-11AM on that fateful Friday. He claimed to stand on the same spot on the top landing after the shooting and to proceed to the basement to eat his lunch. However, this appears not to be the truth as starting 2002, he claims to even walk down the steps after the shooting, going to the corner of Elm and Houston and witnessing Lee Oswald coming from the north of Houston and disappearing in Elm street.  Mr Frazier changed his Warren Commission testimony which he gave under oath. Mr Frazier is able not to speak the truth about the events of assassination.

Taken together, Mr Frazier can say anything and it is not clear what was actually the truth. If he did not see Lee in the doorway, it would be necessary to say who that man whom we call Prayer Man was and we should be able to verify Mr Frazier's identification. If he says he was not aware that anyone had stood at that spot, fine, but in that case it could be Lee Oswald and Mr Frazier simply experienced attentional blink. My calculations, based on the novel tool Motorcade63 by Mark Tyler, suggest that if Lee Oswald was Prayer Man, he would occupy that spot at the western wall only for about 35 seconds. People were focusing on the motorcade and the pandemonium after the shooting, and it was therefore possible to slip to the doorway and leave quickly without being noticed.

There are several witness statements as to who was on the upper steps in the critical moments of the assassination (Shelley, Lovelady, Frazier, Stanton, Sanders, Williams, Molina). None of these witnesses mentioned Prayer Man, a person who can be seen both in Darnell and Wiegman. Either was Prayer Man in the doorway for a very brief period of time and was not spotted by any of the people standing on the top steps, or he was spotted and the people who could see him had a chance to say who Prayer Man was. But they did not in spite of an unknown person standing there in their company.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

 

Two things about this

 

1/ The spelling error warrants a slap with the back of the hand. Just once so the message sticks to the dimwit who made that..

2/ JFK Conferences LLC is a poor attempt by Baker to hide behind a LLC. You can make it sound TrineDay as much as you want but the evidence is overwhelmingly clear. It is a Baker show.

 

Quit defending this hoaxer it only makes you look worse.

 

[Guest]

Albert Rossi is one of the first ones approaching Frazier about Prayer Man in 2014.

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1176-did-frazier-indirectly-identify-prayer-man?highlight=Frazier

 

Then David Mantik and Greg Burnham tried to have a go as well. I am still amazed by this attempt from two persons who have nothing to do with PM research. One of them has even forbidden any mention of it at his own forum.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Over the years Frazier has proved to be a terrible inconsistent witness. Nor did he know many people outside his inner realm. He did not know Stanton's last name nor Calvery's name, only in later years did he find out who they were.

But I do not blame him from denying,  and even if he said that it is Lee, like Marina did. He would get all the press  over him, people declare him a nut etc. And for what? It would not change much.  Whereas this choice keeps him free from all this and finish his lifespan in relative peace and quiet.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dougherty is alright mentally, I have heard a tape where he is interviewed and he sounds fine to me. 

And no I am not sharing it. You will have to wait 'till my Anatomy of the TSBD paper is out.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[David Josephs]

13 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I can corroborate Pat,  we asked Frazier at two Lancer conferences and Debra took the time privately to take doorway photos and show him - they discussed them at length and he made the same remarks to her Pat described and has not changed his position in any way.   There may be things he is hesitant to talk about but for what its worth he has been consistent on this point.

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NOBODY asked these people if they saw Oswald on the steps... nobody anywhere was asked if they saw a person ion the corner there....
Using Larry's as last in the line about Frazier and Oswald on the steps... but what about Lovelady?

Mr. BALL - We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it shows the President's car going by.
Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place there?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or less black area here.
Mr. BALL - I see.
Mr. FRAZIER - Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in front of me.

 

Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.
Mr. BALL - Yes, sir.
Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.
Mr. BALL - Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.
Mr. FRAZIER - O.K.

 

So this is CE362 - I guess that smudge on the top step landing is Frazier...  but we know from Hughes that LOVELADY was over in the corner:
and at some point moves to the center by the railing...  at what point is LOVELADY down at least 2 steps?

Are all of you saying that he did not notice the person in the corner from the image at the bottom left of this collage - or that he was simply not asked about Lee on the stairs as mentioned above?

And are we in agreement about who that is in the left corner, white T-shirt and ruddy open shirt?... and that within seconds he person in the far left corner (facing the TSBD) is there
as well.  How does FRAZIER not even bother to put a person there - never mind it being Oswald or not ????

 

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir;   (DJ: So Frazier cannot corroborate Truly/Baker?)

In fact, I fail to see anything which shows FRAZIER on those steps prior to the motorcade - can anyone provide photographic evidence of FRAZIER prior to the image above at the bottom left?

Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

 

 

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

David:

with some effort, it is possible to identify the contours of Buell Wesley Frazier at his spot close to the glass door in the western part of the doorway in Wiegman, so he was where he told he was and he did not seem to change his location. He might have moved about a foot closer to the front of the top landing in Darnell compared to Wiegman which was only possible because that spot was previously (in Altgens6) occupied by Mrs Stanton, and she left that spot at some point after Altgens6 was shot. In Wiegman, Frazier's entire body is in shadow but in Darnell the lower part of his trunk and arms are in sunlight - that can only be if he moves a bit away from the glass door.

Lovelady was on the second top step in Altgens6 and also in the first part of Wiegman (he moved several inches closer to the middle of the doorway in Wiegman compared to Altgens6) and he is seen descending from that second step in the late part of Wiegman. There are researchers, including myself, who believe that the man facing the lady wearing a dark scarf and standing on the bottom second step in Darnell was also Lovelady. This would be the location which Frazier mentions in one of his interviews when he says that Lovelady stood below him as if he was supporting the western wall.

And yes, the Warren Commission and the HSCA did not really want to hear about that man standing at the western wall.

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

I am not betting Brian Doyle's house on it but what the green arrow points at could be him.

But in all honesty it is not good enough to prove that.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Larry Hancock]

I'm not going to go much further, about the best I can offer is that Frazier has been asked and has consistently said he did not see Oswald on the stops and when shown the pictures did not identify Oswald or the unknown individual at all.  My recollection is that at some point he did indicate he saw Lovelady out front but that's just an impression, someone else will probably have a more accurate comment on that ....given I've been convinced for a long time that Lovelady was on the steps and in the photos in the waiting area afterwards I've never really focused on that point and I don't think I asked Frazier about that specifically.

Its also my impression that Frazier said he was not looking around at folks on the steps much and might not even have looked laterally or around to his right in the area of most interest. 

 

[David Andrews]

Thanks, everybody for their input.  I apologize for misstating that Frazier has never been questioned by researchers on this.

[David Josephs]

5 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I'm not going to go much further, about the best I can offer is that Frazier has been asked and has consistently said he did not see Oswald on the stops and when shown the pictures did not identify Oswald or the unknown individual at all.  My recollection is that at some point he did indicate he saw Lovelady out front but that's just an impression, someone else will probably have a more accurate comment on that ....given I've been convinced for a long time that Lovelady was on the steps and in the photos in the waiting area afterwards I've never really focused on that point and I don't think I asked Frazier about that specifically.

Its also my impression that Frazier said he was not looking around at folks on the steps much and might not even have looked laterally or around to his right in the area of most interest. 

 

"SOMEONE" is standing there yet not a single soul in all of the research done mentions even seeing a person there...

And btw - SHELLEY is mistaken here... quite badly in fact...  any reason to mix up MOLINA with VILES??

(not picking on you Larry... I just find FRAZIER's entire story hard to swallow... right from the time he puts a paper bag in Oswald's hands

 

Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.

 

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.