Oliver Stone and Judyth Baker

[Vince Palamara]

2 hours ago, S.T. Patrick said:

Andrej, I have encountered The JVB on quite a few occasions. I admit that I've never read Me & Lee, as, honestly, I've never been that interested in that angle, and, like with The Inheritance, I find the myriad claims so fantastic as to be almost too fitting. Yet, I will admit that I've spent zero time researching The JVB's story. But I will also admit to liking Haslam and DMM. I'm glad you brought up the idea of "belief." Having encountered her more than a few times, and knowing many who've encountered her even more, I can tell you that I fully believe that SHE believes her own story.  When she talks about her story, I believe she's talking about it as something that, to her, seems true. Now, there could be quite a number of reasons this is true. I do not believe, at all, that she is talking about her story knowing it isn't true. Now, that doesn't mean I believe most of it. But I do believe its been created and then etched into her own believed autobio. So, as long as she believes it, we are never going to get that "gotcha" moment. We're also going to never see her "admit" anything that works against her story. 

Imagine what your reaction would be if you "KNOW" you went to Thomas Jefferson High School (I'll use fictional names here), but then a research community is telling you that you went to County High School. They are telling you there is no record of you being at TJSH, yet you believe you were and you have stories that you can tell, stories you remember vividly. Imagine what that causes in your mind. I think that's what goes on in her mind.

I can say this as long as I don't mention the researcher's name, but someone who knows her well also once explained to me that her difficult personality is caused by Aspergers. Look up the topic of lying and Aspergers/Autism. They manipulate greatly, but they have a hard time lying - some even find it impossible to lie or lie well. I would add here "...UNLESS they believe it." Unless there is something else happening mentally that causes them to believe what they've created. Now, I have no proof that she has Aspergers. Just hear-say from someone who knows her well but won't deal with her anymore. 

I don't know if this post ads anything to the mix of value, but I think there are more possibilities and layers (mental) than, say, the James Files story.

haha---there IS A Thomas Jefferson nearby where I live AND one in Virginia, too.

I believe Judyth worked with Oswald.

I actually read her book from cover to cover and, if she is making everything up, she should get an award, as it is amazing beyond words how she deftly weaved herself into situations with Oswald, etc..

I also believes she 100 percent believes what she is espousing. Now, before Pamela et al pummel me, just as S.T. admitted he did not read her book, I have NOT---repeat, have NOT---studied the alleged errors, discrepancies and other parts of her story that supposedly don't add up.

I am only interested in the Secret Service and medical areas of the case, so I am no New Orleans expert (I have read a fair amount, but those aren't my areas of specialty interest).

Researcher Martin Shackelford and I are not friends, to put it mildly. Yet, I respect him and he was an early backer of her claims. To my knowledge, he hasn't reneged on them.

As I stated before, MANY people cast aspersions on Deb Conway of Lancer back in the mid-late 1990's and onward as a female who came out of nowhere to take over the case and run a competitive conference (SOUND FAMILIAR???????). Yet, today, she partnered with her old rival COPA to become CAPA and no one seems to even remember those troublesome times. I had people saying to me "ewww-Vince: why are you attending HER conference [1997]? She is a spy, I don't trust her, she is only in it for the money" etc.

-------------------

My view on Judyth is the same as CAPA (or COPA or Lancer): the fact that there are multiple conferences in Dallas to attend is a good thing.

 

Here are the things that neutralize people's disgust with just her conference:

-quite a few people attended BOTH conferences- THIS year and previous years;

-Wecht and Groden spoke at both conferences (Wecht this year; Groden another year);

-no one took a loyalty oath upon signing up for Judyth's conference. Quite frankly, NO ONE SEEMED TO CARE one way or the other...only some disgruntled people here do;

-Oliver Stone was at Judyth's conference and...the rest you know. What are you going to do now? Throw away your copy of the JFK movie?

-Judyth's face wasn't on the conference banner, program or in the conference hall itself. She was very quiet before, during and after much of the bulk of the conference. In fact, if you were unaware of who she was and the controversy, you would think she was downright inconspicuous.

-many Trine Day authors were there (including me) and viewed this as a Trine Day conference. In fact, publisher KRIS MILLEGAN was infinitely more outspoken and conspicuous than she was by a country mile. 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Vince Palamara

[Ron Bulman]

Mee and Leee.  We only made love once.  On a park bench in Lafayette Square.  I aborted the baby on CIA orders.  I think he loved me. 

[Andrej Stancak]

10 hours ago, S.T. Patrick said:

Andrej, I have encountered The JVB on quite a few occasions. I admit that I've never read Me & Lee, as, honestly, I've never been that interested in that angle, and, like with The Inheritance, I find the myriad claims so fantastic as to be almost too fitting. Yet, I will admit that I've spent zero time researching The JVB's story. But I will also admit to liking Haslam and DMM. I'm glad you brought up the idea of "belief." Having encountered her more than a few times, and knowing many who've encountered her even more, I can tell you that I fully believe that SHE believes her own story.  When she talks about her story, I believe she's talking about it as something that, to her, seems true. Now, there could be quite a number of reasons this is true. I do not believe, at all, that she is talking about her story knowing it isn't true. Now, that doesn't mean I believe most of it. But I do believe its been created and then etched into her own believed autobio. So, as long as she believes it, we are never going to get that "gotcha" moment. We're also going to never see her "admit" anything that works against her story. 

Imagine what your reaction would be if you "KNOW" you went to Thomas Jefferson High School (I'll use fictional names here), but then a research community is telling you that you went to County High School. They are telling you there is no record of you being at TJSH, yet you believe you were and you have stories that you can tell, stories you remember vividly. Imagine what that causes in your mind. I think that's what goes on in her mind.

I can say this as long as I don't mention the researcher's name, but someone who knows her well also once explained to me that her difficult personality is caused by Aspergers. Look up the topic of lying and Aspergers/Autism. They manipulate greatly, but they have a hard time lying - some even find it impossible to lie or lie well. I would add here "...UNLESS they believe it." Unless there is something else happening mentally that causes them to believe what they've created. Now, I have no proof that she has Aspergers. Just hear-say from someone who knows her well but won't deal with her anymore. 

I don't know if this post ads anything to the mix of value, but I think there are more possibilities and layers (mental) than, say, the James Files story.

Dear S.T.:

thanks for contributing with your own experience of witnessing Judyth Baker's behaviour. I did not say in my last post which of the two alternatives I am inclined to prefer, and it would be the latter - Mrs. Baker truly believes in all what she says. Her experiences regarding Lee Oswald are erotic, conspiratorial, persecution-like, grandiose - is is a mixed type of beliefs. The belief of having a relationship with Lee Oswald along a personal and intelligence lines is the centre of her current life. It looks to be fitting a different pattern than Asperger syndrome, however, it is not appropriate for me to speculate.

I have had a few encounters with Judyth Baker in late 2014 when I resumed my interest in JFK assassination, first slowly, then more. Actually, my first encounter was with Mr Ralph Cinque who even invited me to join their small community believing that Lovelady in Altgens6 was Lee Oswald. This lasted about 10 weeks until I found out that that story was false. I then was a member of a Facebook page (maybe I am still a member but not contributing for years)  promoting Lee Oswald's innocence (a similar page title to that of Mr Cinque's page) and I was able to read and even comment  a few times. I remember defending her from very nasty, personal and brutal attack by A.J. Weberman. Whatever anyone claims, s/he should not be exposed to the vulgarities presented by Mr Weberman. However, I then started to ask Mrs Baker a few questions and it started to change very rapidly. The point when I withdrew was when she claimed that Lee Oswald did not took any photograph of them in New Orleans because Lee was told by the CIA not to take any photographs at all, not even of his own family. That was not true, there are  a few pictures from their New Orleans period.

Mrs Baker is unusually well read in the JFK assassination case, one of the best experts in the field. I read somewhere she took classes in creative writing in the 90th and that might have been a part of how she moved in her life. Forrest Gump was released in 1994 which would coincide with the beginnings of Mrs Baker's story. In my view, it is possible to elaborate such fiction story with enough time and effort invested. There are parts in Mrs Baker's story which can be neither proved nor disproved and here she is on a safe ground. It is maybe 90% of data in the book. Can anyone prove or disprove that she was in a pub with Lee about at end May and Lee was in a gloomy mood feeling bad things may happen to Kennedy? However, Mrs Baker made a big mistake in an area she trusted herself the most - the cancer research. Here she told too much and in too many details and that part of her story can be easily disproved.

Whatever Mrs Baker claims, I hope the community can approach her with understanding and if the understanding is sound then even with sympathy. She is a person of great mind which has driven her astray. It can happen.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Paul Jolliffe]

6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Dear S.T.:

thanks for contributing with your own experience of witnessing Judyth Baker's behaviour. I did not say in my last post which of the two alternatives I am inclined to prefer, and it would be the latter - Mrs. Baker truly believes in all what she says. Her experiences regarding Lee Oswald are erotic, conspiratorial, persecution-like, grandiose - is is a mixed type of beliefs. The belief of having a relationship with Lee Oswald along a personal and intelligence lines is the centre of her current life. It looks to be fitting a different pattern than Asperger syndrome, however, it is not appropriate for me to speculate.

I have had a few encounters with Judyth Baker in late 2014 when I resumed my interest in JFK assassination, first slowly, then more. Actually, my first encounter was with Mr Ralph Cinque who even invited me to join their small community believing that Lovelady in Altgens6 was Lee Oswald. This lasted about 10 weeks until I found out that that story was false. I then was a member of a Facebook page (maybe I am still a member but not contributing for years)  promoting Lee Oswald's innocence (a similar page title to that of Mr Cinque's page) and I was able to read and even comment  a few times. I remember defending her from very nasty, personal and brutal attack by A.J. Weberman. Whatever anyone claims, s/he should not be exposed to the vulgarities presented by Mr Weberman. However, I then started to ask Mrs Baker a few questions and it started to change very rapidly. The point when I withdrew was when she claimed that Lee Oswald did not took any photograph of them in New Orleans because Lee was told by the CIA not to take any photographs at all, not even of his own family. That was not true, there are  a few pictures from their New Orleans period.

Mrs Baker is unusually well read in the JFK assassination case, one of the best experts in the field. I read somewhere she took classes in creative writing in the 90th and that might have been a part of how she moved in her life. Forrest Gump was released in 1994 which would coincide with the beginnings of Mrs Baker's story. In my view, it is possible to elaborate such fiction story with enough time and effort invested. There are parts in Mrs Baker's story which can be neither proved nor disproved and here she is on a safe ground. It is maybe 90% of data in the book. Can anyone prove or disprove that she was in a pub with Lee about at end May and Lee was in a gloomy mood feeling bad things may happen to Kennedy? However, Mrs Baker made a big mistake in an area she trusted herself the most - the cancer research. Here she told too much and in too many details and that part of her story can be easily disproved.

Whatever Mrs Baker claims, I hope the community can approach her with understanding and if the understanding is sound then even with sympathy. She is a person of great mind which has driven her astray. It can happen.

 

 

 

 

 

I, too, remember reading (somewhere) that JVB's "story" did not begin to emerge until after she took classes in creative writing. You and I probably read the same source. If true (note that I said "if"), then her credibility really takes a hit. Was she going through any personal trauma at the time? (A divorce, perhaps? Something else?) Were these classes a form of restorative therapy that then, with the development (creation?) of the "Me and Lee" story, took on a life of its own?

I must be frank: I don't believe the basics of her story. Our "Oswald", the man with whom JVB allegedly had an affair, was not an assassin, so any claim that he was an important part of a plot to kill Castro is ridiculous.

Further, there is no evidence that our "Oswald" knew anything about cancer research or much about science generally. His conversations with people were about politics, government, communism, Marxism, and sociology.

In 2013, Marina put up two of "Oswald's" personal books for sale on a public auction. One was a copy of the Communist Manifesto from the 1930's, the other a collection of cartoons from a noted communist Hungarian Jew, Tibor Kajan, a man nominated several times for Hungary's Kossuth Prize. Not a science book in sight.

https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/social-sciences/-john-f-kennedy-lee-harvey-oswald-s-personal-books/a/6106-38424.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

 

[Douglas Caddy]

From the article: “After the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, Judyth Baker claimed she received a phone-call from David Ferrie warning her that she would be killed if she told anyone about her knowledge of these events.’

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKbakerJ.htm

Judyth was born in 1943. She was 20 years old when JFK was assassinated in1963. At that time she lived in New Orleans. In the wake of the Kennedy murder three of her close friends were killed: Lee Harvey Oswald, Dr. Mary Sherman and David Ferrie. To her, as it would be to anyone else, it would be wise to shift into obscurity to avoid being another victim.

She emerged publicly in the mid-1990’s. Why at this time? The opening of the internet to public and commercial use made it possible for her to tell her story. Up until then there really was no truly viable means to do so. The passage of time made her feel safe.
 

 

[Joe Bauer]

51 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

From the article: “After the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, Judyth Baker claimed she received a phone-call from David Ferrie warning her that she would be killed if she told anyone about her knowledge of these events.’

https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKbakerJ.htm

Judyth was born in 1943. She was 20 years old when JFK was assassinated in1963. At that time she lived in New Orleans. In the wake of the Kennedy murder three of her close friends were killed: Lee Harvey Oswald, Dr. Mary Sherman and David Ferrie. To her, as it would be to anyone else, it would be wise to shift into obscurity to avoid being another victim.

She emerged publicly in the mid-1990’s. Why at this time? The opening of the internet to public and commercial use made it possible for her to tell her story. Up until then there really was no truly viable means to do so. The passage of time made her feel safe.
 

 

I totally agree Doug regards JVB fearing for her life after 3 people she personally knew in New Orleans were being murdered or dying under suspicious circumstances.

I guarantee you, there were probably hundreds of people who saw or heard things about the JFK assassination or the central characters involved...that probably kept what they saw, heard and knew to themselves the rest of their lives ...and rationally so with so many suspicious deaths reported regarding so many connected to the JFK tragedy.

JVB may have some aspects of Aspergers syndrome.

And it does appear she has had some emotional trauma in her life so effecting, that living in a more romantic and important life of her wishing may be another partial reality.

But, dog gone it...she did work at Reilly's coffee during Lee's time there, and she was hired and let go at just about the same times Lee was. And she knew that Lee had and wore flip flops ( did she read this before she mentioned it?) Where was that little fact written about before Judyth?

I'm joking a little here...but if JVB wasn't terrified as soon as Oswald was killed and after Dr. Sherman's horrific death and David Ferries so-called suicide...she should have been.

[Joe Bauer]

On 12/15/2019 at 7:17 AM, Paul Jolliffe said:

I, too, remember reading (somewhere) that JVB's "story" did not begin to emerge until after she took classes in creative writing. You and I probably read the same source. If true (note that I said "if"), then her credibility really takes a hit. Was she going through any personal trauma at the time? (A divorce, perhaps? Something else?) Were these classes a form of restorative therapy that then, with the development (creation?) of the "Me and Lee" story, took on a life of its own?

I must be frank: I don't believe the basics of her story. Our "Oswald", the man with whom JVB allegedly had an affair, was not an assassin, so any claim that he was an important part of a plot to kill Castro is ridiculous.

Further, there is no evidence that our "Oswald" knew anything about cancer research or much about science generally. His conversations with people were about politics, government, communism, Marxism, and sociology.

In 2013, Marina put up two of "Oswald's" personal books for sale on a public auction. One was a copy of the Communist Manifesto from the 1930's, the other a collection of cartoons from a noted communist Hungarian Jew, Tibor Kajan, a man nominated several times for Hungary's Kossuth Prize. Not a science book in sight.

https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/social-sciences/-john-f-kennedy-lee-harvey-oswald-s-personal-books/a/6106-38424.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

 

Paul J.

Do you know if those two Lee Oswald owned books actually sold? And if so, for how much?

I clicked on your link and also did a search and I couldn't find this information. The Lee Oswald wedding band sale for $90,000 of course is reported.

Curious how Marina got that ring back after it had been held for years by an attorney previously?

Marina said she wanted to sell the ring to let go of the past. If so, why hang on to those two books owned by Lee for so long also?

It would be easy to understand the sentimental value of the wedding band of Lee's. This ring represented Lee's love for Marina at a truly innocent time in his life. And he was the father of her two daughters.

But, those two books had so little value in this regards. Marina dumping those books within just months after 11,22,1963 would have made more sense than hanging on to them for 50 long years.

And one would think that either of Lee Oswald's two daughters may have wanted their father's wedding band themselves. Again, a reminder of their father's more innocent past?

Then again, maybe Marina gave her portion of the auctioned ring sale to them anyway?

Edited December 16, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[David Andrews]

But, dog gone it...she did work at Reilly's coffee during Lee's time there, and she was hired and let go at just about the same times Lee was. And she knew that Lee had and wore flip flops ( did she read this before she mentioned it?) Where was that little fact written about before Judyth?

***

That's actually a detail in Don DiLillo's novel Libra (1988).  So flip-flops are either noted in some prior research, or it was invented for the novel and JVB picked it up there.

[David Josephs]

2 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

But, dog gone it...she did work at Reilly's coffee during Lee's time there, and she was hired and let go at just about the same times Lee was

Really?

Dave, then why does she offer the IRS copy "B" of her W-2 (instead of Copy C which everyone else gets to keep) and
does not match a single W-2 ever sent to anyone?

There is not a single W-2 where the person's name is ABOVE the dollar amounts.... not even the State version.... and the REILY W-2 comes from a carbon book which shows what is underneath and how off this top copy really is....

Notice how the bleedthru carbon copy is offset to the right since the top page was moved to the left (see holes at the right)

1. Copy B
2. Top page "up and to the left" yet Carbon copy bleed text is also higher than the writing on the top sheet when it should be lower based on where the holes are
3. Cover jobs were supposedly facilitated by George Smathers - there is no reason to believe she ever worked or even spent time at REILY given she was supposed to be working at the Oschner clinic with Mary Sherman every day....

FWIW
DJ

[David Josephs]

Then there is the fact this "FORM" has an ID which also does not match any known IRS forms:

Y'know, just sayin'

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

But, dog gone it...she did work at Reilly's coffee during Lee's time there, and she was hired and let go at just about the same times Lee was. And she knew that Lee had and wore flip flops ( did she read this before she mentioned it?) Where was that little fact written about before Judyth?

***

That's actually a detail in Don DiLillo's novel Libra (1988).  So flip-flops are either noted in some prior research, or it was invented for the novel and JVB picked it up there.

Really? I didn't know this about Dilillo's novel David.

If true, I have to admit it's possible JVB got this personal information from there.

There just seems to be one credibility damaging thing after another regard's JVB's tale.

Yet still she and her story survive being totally buried. 

[Pat Speer]

FWIW, David, I worked at an accounting firm for a brief time in high school. My recollection is that we--the employees of the accounting firm--typed up the W-2 forms...based on information provided by our clients. And I'm pretty sure we bought the forms from a stationery store. I distinctly remember screwing up and typing the wrong number in the cents column, and my boss telling me each form cost 25 cents or some such thing and it wasn't worth our time and money to re-type it so a 5 would be a 6, or vice-versa.

My point is, then, that the forms came from a stationery company, and were not necessarily uniform in appearance. If you could find some old book or website detailing the legal standards for W-2 forms, then, that would go some distance towards convincing people Judyth's form is bogus.

 

P.S.  Flip-flops aka thongs were listed among the clothes taken into possession by the DPD. (26H587) It seems probable then that Judyth's claim about the flip-flops comes from reading the 26 volumes... 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Pat Speer

[David Josephs]

7 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

My point is, then, that the forms came from a stationery company, and were not necessarily uniform in appearance. If you could find some old book or website detailing the legal standards for W-2 forms, then, that would go some distance towards convincing people Judyth's form is bogus.

I did that Pat....  anything not printed by the IRS must meet some strict guidelines... but yes they can be used instead of the IRS printed forms....

Point being these are not station store printed items... and she should have sent in COPY B with her return.... she did it correctly with the other W-2 from 1963.....

Just not for REILY....  what a surprise

[David Andrews]

David J - In my post I was was quoting a statement made above by Joe B.  He mentions Reilly Coffee there, but I was answering the adjacent detail about the flip-flops that Joe B brought up.

Sorry I didn't use the Quote feature.  I myself don't believe JVB on any particular point.

But it's good that you brought up the suspicious forms.

Edited December 16, 2019 by David Andrews

[David Josephs]

Just making sure those reading here are not accidentally swayed into thinking there's more to that mountain than the mole hill it is...