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Armstrong, Westbrook and the details.


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Hey, I'm on board with Harvey and Lee ! But maybe not the photographic analysis in all respects. The two faces are just too similar to be different people. December '57 , feb 57 hunting and the photo of Lee outside the barracks, in my opinion are not the guy arrested . 

 Anyway ... Yes that jacket is very very similar to the hunting photo, but it was 6 years later so maybe not the same one exactly. My point about the brown shirt was a bad one.... I hadn't even realised that the main stream story is that he was wearing a light tan shirt but changed into a dark brown one.

 For me, the sighting a of a man running down from the elm extension who looked very similar to LHO, by four ( Craig , Robinson & Cooper , Helen Forest ?) witnesses is too strong to ignore but what he was wearing and what Harvey left the building wearing don't seem to be clear aS craigs testimony contradicts the others seeing a man in a white T shirt. Furthermore the light jacket people saw the killer of Tippit wearing could have been covering a dark shirt, open at the neck, with a t shirt under that. discarded by Harvey at some point. So I don't see concrete evidence that the the clothing can help. 

 If we could say that the man who shot Tippit was not wearing anything other than a jacket and a white T-shirt then great. 

If we could say that Harvey was wearing a light tan shirt IN the TSBD then great also. The slight issue seems to be that the jacket was very light tan and lightweight cotton. As was the shirt harvey was 'supposed' to have left in. And, as above, the man entering the rambler has varying descriptions regarding his upper clothing.  Did craig feel pressured to say a tan shirt at this point ?

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Jake,

You're not alone thinking the photographic evidence for "Lee Harvey Oswald" has been compromised.  John A. and I both agree that it has and I'm sure many other researchers feel the same way. 

The evidence is not bad indicating Harvey didn't wear a white jacket from the TSBD but a blue one, which later was placed back in the building to be "discovered."  The original police broadcast about Tippit's killer described a man in a white jacket and white shirt.

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2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Jake,

You're not alone thinking the photographic evidence for "Lee Harvey Oswald" has been compromised.  John A. and I both agree that it has and I'm sure many other researchers feel the same way. 

The evidence is not bad indicating Harvey didn't wear a white jacket from the TSBD but a blue one, which later was placed back in the building to be "discovered."  The original police broadcast about Tippit's killer described a man in a white jacket and white shirt.

Yes, the white jacket white shirt man seems to crop up on the sixth floor, the rambler, East 10th and killing tippit. And POSSIBLY most importantly in the balcony of the theatre minus a jacket, whilst a light jacket is found in a car park near by. I've always wondered if ' white jacket , white shirt '  was actually " light jacket ,white T-shirt". I have a good knowledge of mens vintage clothing and terminology having worked in the industry but were T-shirts often referred to as ' shirts' when worn under another item in 1960's Dallas ? , it seems trivia but these details can make a real difference. I have a feeling they were. 

Edited by Jake Hammond
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Just re-read Baker's testimony and although it is highly suspicious  in some regards and seems to change he quite clearly states that the man he stopped was wearing a light coloured jacket. It is interesting that he ducks his head out of the way quite aggressively to avoid eye contact with Oswald in the corridor at the station and more so that it looks like Oswald may then say something to him or pauses on approaching him. A time machine would be great !

 

Edited by Jake Hammond
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4 hours ago, B. A. Copeland said:

I read it through, most of which I think now is accepted as fact and most people know but there are a few things I would add.

 1) To me, the most glaring smoking gun to a conspiracy is that officer Tippit was shot outside the home of his recent lover, a place he frequented often. This is not taken into account in this chronology and would be a HUGE coincidence. 

2) This story also completely omits the fact that several witnesses saw a police car parked in the alley Tippit was effectively blocking, a man get out and say something to the shooter, then get back in and quickly reverse back down the alley. Again, the chances of stopping at the end of a narrow alley where there is a police car parked are slim. That the police car would then just drive off... really ?

 Put these two points together and you have an obvious conclusion; he met someone there because it was a known place to him, secluded and topographically advantageous in relation to the theatre and the rooming house. 

 The article does however give a logical and reconciliatory account of why Tippit stopped Andrews' car and has enlightened me on the stabbing incident since I have not reached that far in ' into the nightmare'.  The stabbing is also surely not just a coincidence ?! I can't take any more huge coincidences ! They do happen though and we have to remember that the truth is never what seems the least strange and unlikely, a trap many fall in to I believe, especially in cold case work. Returning to ' coincidences' ... I do find it entirely plausible that the two incidents are linked but are also coincidental . 

Possible theory - Tippit was going to meet someone at the alley way, someone he'd been trying to contact at the top ten, over the police radio, or had pre arranged to meet. En route he heard a report of a stabbing and was obviously now stressed because it may well be linked to what he knew of the plan that day, it may be that he was meeting Lee and suspected Lee had been stopped, or just that it was a coincidence but he could not ignore the call and decided to briefly search for the man in the car. Then he resumed his meet up. 

 More needs to be deciphered from the stabbing incident, its just a huge coincidence that should be either linked to the wider event or dismissed as a coincidence. 

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It's in the article linked to above.  There were some number of witnesses to an altercation that happened at 10th and Marsallis.  Three men and a woman attacked a man who was then whisked away in a blue car just a few minutes before Tippit was killed.  This is supposedly what drew Tippit to the area, according to some researchers.

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Yes I read that article and watched a YT video By Micheal Brownlow er al explaining a bit more . I’d heard of it before but perhaps had it confused with the shop lifting incident Tippit dealt with. Has a reconciliatory explanation ever emerged ? I struggled to find much on the web . For what I’m trying to do ( coincidentally similar to the motorcade 63 idea in another current topic) it may not matter at all TBH as it doesn’t seem to affect the movements of anyone . UNLESS there was evidence that Tippit was told to go there from the Gloco station  ?.... 

 

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On 11/27/2019 at 11:40 PM, Jake Hammond said:

Sorry, maybe you know more ? I’m not familiar with the stabbing incident at all. 

I too found the stabbing incident fascinating (if true) as I’d never heard of it myself and I’m not familiar with Armstrong ever mentioning it but perhaps he has?

Edited by B. A. Copeland
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1 hour ago, B. A. Copeland said:

I too found the stabbing incident fascinating (if true) as I’d never heard of it myself and I’m not familiar with Armstrong ever mentioning it but perhaps he has?

Not that I'm aware of, as far as I understand it it didn't influence the events of that day at all. Theoretically it was designed to draw Tippit to that area and may have been what made him leave the gas station down Lancaster but there is no evidence of that and would you really stab a man so that a pool of blood was left just to draw him there ?

 Q. Did any of the witnesses give an age description of the man who stood over the body / the second shooter ? I know one gave the description of a long coat, two I think gave the description of a dark coat ( possibly 'jacket') and one described him being heavy, around 200lb. However. have any described his age ?

 It strikes me as something that needs reconciling, the man escaping in a car, the man leaving in a different direction , the police car in the alley , who stood over the body ....Armstrong uses the description of 'Oswald' coming back to the body to finish him with a headshot but all witnesses describe four rapid shots. the medical evidence and the blood left on the street show that he was shot at close range in the temple. The shell casings suggest three from one manufacturer and two from another  but the bullets have two from each manufacturer. The bullets could be a mistake perhaps but this mess needs to be cleaned up ! The man standing over the body apparently didn't have anything in his hands... so how did the head shot happen ? it definitely happened so perhaps Armstrong is right to use the description of 'oswald' returning to the body for a headshot ? 

What we do know from the witnesses.

 - he was wearing a light jacket with a white T-shirt underneath and dark/ black trousers. 

- four rapid shots rang out

- he left South on Patton, cutting the corner across the 400 garden.

- He had a short, fairly casual conversation with Tippit from the passenger / sidewalk side

- He threw shell casings onto the garden from a revolver as he went ( this is interesting)

- There was another man there in dark civilian clothing who has yet to be identified and left soon after.

- He had dark hair and was around 160 lbs

- He looked similar to LHO but only one ( was it calloway ?) said it was definitely LHO, most hinted that it wasn't him.

- Tippit was shot as he rounded the fender and at least appeared to be reaching for his weapon.

- Oswald changed direction to avoid the police car and possibly tried to walk into the alley ( was he stopped by the car parked there ? It would make a lot of sense because if he was avoiding Tippit he could easily have taken off down the alley ) .

Possibles 

 - There was a police car in the alley which left soon after, one of the men was the man who looked over the body. I think in total there are three witnesses to this and nothing that contradicts the statement, and no reason for the witnesses to mistake what they saw or make it up.  Given the fact that not many of the witnesses could see the alley way this is good evidence IMO. 

- Croy was in the police car in the alley and was there immediately. 

Issues to be Reconciled

 - The second man... what age was he ? how did he leave ? 

- The head shot ... it definitely happened so how ? silenced weapon from the man in the civilian clothing ? 'Oswald' coming back for the kill shot and the shot sounding different because it was next to a car or covered by a loud noise else where ? Adrenalin in the witnesses causing a brain fog ? a combination of these ?

- The shells,  I think there has been a lot written on this so there perhaps is an answer. 

Edited by Jake Hammond
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On 11/29/2019 at 12:59 AM, Jake Hammond said:

Not that I'm aware of, as far as I understand it it didn't influence the events of that day at all. Theoretically it was designed to draw Tippit to that area and may have been what made him leave the gas station down Lancaster but there is no evidence of that and would you really stab a man so that a pool of blood was left just to draw him there ?

 Q. Did any of the witnesses give an age description of the man who stood over the body / the second shooter ? I know one gave the description of a long coat, two I think gave the description of a dark coat ( possibly 'jacket') and one described him being heavy, around 200lb. However. have any described his age ?

 It strikes me as something that needs reconciling, the man escaping in a car, the man leaving in a different direction , the police car in the alley , who stood over the body ....Armstrong uses the description of 'Oswald' coming back to the body to finish him with a headshot but all witnesses describe four rapid shots. the medical evidence and the blood left on the street show that he was shot at close range in the temple. The shell casings suggest three from one manufacturer and two from another  but the bullets have two from each manufacturer. The bullets could be a mistake perhaps but this mess needs to be cleaned up ! The man standing over the body apparently didn't have anything in his hands... so how did the head shot happen ? it definitely happened so perhaps Armstrong is right to use the description of 'oswald' returning to the body for a headshot ? 

What we do know from the witnesses.

 - he was wearing a light jacket with a white T-shirt underneath and dark/ black trousers. 

- four rapid shots rang out

- he left South on Patton, cutting the corner across the 400 garden.

- He had a short, fairly casual conversation with Tippit from the passenger / sidewalk side

- He threw shell casings onto the garden from a revolver as he went ( this is interesting)

- There was another man there in dark civilian clothing who has yet to be identified and left soon after.

- He had dark hair and was around 160 lbs

- He looked similar to LHO but only one ( was it calloway ?) said it was definitely LHO, most hinted that it wasn't him.

- Tippit was shot as he rounded the fender and at least appeared to be reaching for his weapon.

- Oswald changed direction to avoid the police car and possibly tried to walk into the alley ( was he stopped by the car parked there ? It would make a lot of sense because if he was avoiding Tippit he could easily have taken off down the alley ) .

Possibles 

 - There was a police car in the alley which left soon after, one of the men was the man who looked over the body. I think in total there are three witnesses to this and nothing that contradicts the statement, and no reason for the witnesses to mistake what they saw or make it up.  Given the fact that not many of the witnesses could see the alley way this is good evidence IMO. 

- Croy was in the police car in the alley and was there immediately. 

Issues to be Reconciled

 - The second man... what age was he ? how did he leave ? 

- The head shot ... it definitely happened so how ? silenced weapon from the man in the civilian clothing ? 'Oswald' coming back for the kill shot and the shot sounding different because it was next to a car or covered by a loud noise else where ? Adrenalin in the witnesses causing a brain fog ? a combination of these ?

- The shells,  I think there has been a lot written on this so there perhaps is an answer. 

Thanks for the amazing response Jake. I'll have to chew all of it slowly later on.

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No one seems to think Tippit’s death was an important part of the coverup? Awfully suspicious in my opinion. He may have been a shooter or a spotter. Explanations for his pre assassination whereabouts fall apart under scrutiny. 

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