Unanswered Questions For Buell Frazier

[Rob Clark]

3 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

"Oswald" carried no rifle into the TSBD and Frazier knew it. 

From Frazier's HSCA interview...certainly sounds like Frazier knew he did....

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Rob Clark said:

From Frazier's HSCA interview...certainly sounds like Frazier knew he did....

Rob,

No offense, but this belated statement from Frazier about "Oswald" bringing in a rifle to the TSBD is even lamer that the Warren Commission's attempt to put a rifle in "Oswald's" hands that morning when entering the TSBD. Remember, they had to resort to lying about Jack Dougherty's testimony - they claimed that Dougherty testified that he saw "Oswald" enter the TSBD,  but they claimed that Dougherty couldn't remember anything in "Oswald's" hands when in fact, Dougherty testified to exactly the opposite! Dougherty was definite: "Oswald" had nothing in his hands when he entered the TSBD that morning!

From the Warren Report:

"One employee, Jack Dougherty, believed that he saw Oswald coming to work, but he does not remember that Oswald had anything in his hands as he entered the door.160 No other employee has been found who saw Oswald enter that morning.161"

 

Yet, from the Warren Commission's own evidence, the direct testimony of their own, cited witness, Jack Dougherty:

Mr. Ball: Do you recall him having anything in his hand?

Mr. Dougherty: Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.

Mr. Ball: Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?

Mr. Dougherty: Well, I believe I can--yes sir--I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.

Mr. Ball: In other words, your memory is definite on that, is it?

Mr. Dougherty: Yes sir.

Mr Ball: In other words, you would say positively that he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. Dougherty: I would say that -- yes sir.

Mr. Ball: Or, are you guessing?

Mr. Dougherty: I don't think so.

Mr. Ball: You saw him come in the door?

Mr. Dougherty: Yes.

Mr Ball:The back door on the first floor?

Mr. Dougherty: It was in the back door . . .

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=35&search=dougherty#relPageId=387&tab=page

 

Even the Warren Commission admitted that they had no witness who could attest that "Oswald" ever possessed/made/transported any paper sack of any length at any time ever inside the Texas School Book Depository!

However that throwdown rifle (possibly but not certainly the infamous Mannlicher-Carcano) entered the TSBD, it wasn't in the hands of our "Oswald"!

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Andrej Stancak]

9 hours ago, Rob Clark said:

From Frazier's HSCA interview...certainly sounds like Frazier knew he did....

This may explain Buell Wesley Frazier's posture in Darnell. He appears frozen and not optimising his view of the scene with hastily departing motorcade at the Triple Underpass area. In one of his interviews, Mr Frazier mentioned to stand deliberately at his spot on the steps because he saw police officers with guns around and he was scared.

The only other person who similarly remained frozen and not looking where the rest of doorway occupants looked was that unknown person standing with his back to the western wall of the doorway.

Thanks for posting this short excerpt from Frazier's HSCA testimony, it was new to me and it is very important.

[Rob Clark]

On 12/23/2019 at 5:47 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

Rob,

No offense, but this belated statement from Frazier about "Oswald" bringing in a rifle to the TSBD is even lamer that the Warren Commission's attempt to put a rifle in "Oswald's" hands that morning when entering the TSBD.

However that throwdown rifle (possibly but not certainly the infamous Mannlicher-Carcano) entered the TSBD, it wasn't in the hands of our "Oswald"!

I'm not saying that just because Oswald brought a rifle to work that morning, that he was on the 6th floor using it. That rifle was allegedly purchased under the name of A.J. Hidell, a seemingly devout "Castro supporter". Maybe Oswald was instructed to plant the rifle and shells on the 6th floor and didn't think it could ever be traced back to him? Maybe they told him they were just going scare Kennedy...take some shots, the rifle gets traced back to this "Castro supporter", and Kennedy is finally incensed enough to do something about Cuba. I firmly believe Oswald was on the first floor, if not outside at the time of the shots.  But if Frazier knew Oswald brought a rifle, didn't see him come outside behind him, and believed or was convinced that Oswald could have done it, then the "belated statement" as you call it, is important. 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Rob Clark

[David Andrews]

Just a thought here: Whoever made up the curtain rods story, Frazier or Oswald (or "Oswald,"), perhaps knew that the N. Beckley Street cubbyhole needed curtain rods, based on the photo below, in which at least two of the three windows are serviced by some jerry-rigged arrangement of rods telescoped together, and veering improbably upward from the middle and right window frames.

Other than aesthetic objections, there's no reason the room's occupant strictly needed curtain rods, since there were blinds and the existing curtains were transparent.  Was he hoping to score blackout curtains next week?  Odd, for a temporary SRO.

So, what if Frazier's passenger really brought curtain rods from the Paine house to work?  (These were not recorded as found at the TSBD, I know.)

Or, what if there were no package at all, but Frazier knew the room and thought this was a plausible cover story for inventing one?

Any other scenarios possible, based on this ugly decorating arrangement?

Edited December 25, 2019 by David Andrews

[Paul Jolliffe]

21 hours ago, Rob Clark said:

I'm not saying that just because Oswald brought a rifle to work that morning, that he was on the 6th floor using it. That rifle was allegedly purchased under the name of A.J. Hidell, a seemingly devout "Castro supporter". Maybe Oswald was instructed to plant the rifle and shells on the 6th floor and didn't think it could ever be traced back to him? Maybe they told him they were just going scare Kennedy...take some shots, the rifle gets traced back to this "Castro supporter", and Kennedy is finally incensed enough to do something about Cuba. I firmly believe Oswald was on the first floor, if not outside at the time of the shots.  But if Frazier knew Oswald brought a rifle, didn't see him come outside behind him, and believed or was convinced that Oswald could have done it, then the "belated statement" as you call it, is important. 

 

Rob,

There is simply no credible evidence that our "Oswald" ever purchased or possessed the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. The entire WC version of the rifle's provenance is completely phony. (That subject deserves an entire book in its own right. )

Further, there is no evidence that "Oswald" stored any rifle or firearm at Ruth Paine's home in Irving. The laughably phony WC version has an unwitting Ruth Pained somehow taking the rifle with Marina from New Orleans while our "Oswald" was (supposedly) in Mexico City. The rifle, allegedly wrapped in a blanket, was unknowingly packed into Ruth Paine's car in New Orleans, driven to Dallas, unloaded from the car, placed on the floor of the garage, and then lay there for weeks. 

Remember, the official version is that '"Oswald" never touched it after leaving for Mexico City - all of the above was done by an unwitting, Quaker pacifist who did not allow firearms into her home, yet somehow she personally handled that blanketed rifle multiple times over a period of days but had no idea she held a rifle! 

This scenario is absurd on its face and is not worthy of serious intellectual comment.   "Oswald" owned no rifle in Dallas. He had nothing of the sort stored in the Paine garage. He had no rifle to bring to the TSBD, ever.

 

[Rob Clark]

22 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Rob,

There is simply no credible evidence that our "Oswald" ever purchased or possessed the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. The entire WC version of the rifle's provenance is completely phony. (That subject deserves an entire book in its own right. )

Further, there is no evidence that "Oswald" stored any rifle or firearm at Ruth Paine's home in Irving. The laughably phony WC version has an unwitting Ruth Pained somehow taking the rifle with Marina from New Orleans while our "Oswald" was (supposedly) in Mexico City. The rifle, allegedly wrapped in a blanket, was unknowingly packed into Ruth Paine's car in New Orleans, driven to Dallas, unloaded from the car, placed on the floor of the garage, and then lay there for weeks. 

Remember, the official version is that '"Oswald" never touched it after leaving for Mexico City - all of the above was done by an unwitting, Quaker pacifist who did not allow firearms into her home, yet somehow she personally handled that blanketed rifle multiple times over a period of days but had no idea she held a rifle! 

This scenario is absurd on its face and is not worthy of serious intellectual comment.   "Oswald" owned no rifle in Dallas. He had nothing of the sort stored in the Paine garage. He had no rifle to bring to the TSBD, ever.

 

So..what you're saying is that a much grander conspiracy makes sense? One that involves, Marina, George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt lying about Oswald having a rifle, pictures being faked, "someone" using Oswald's alias and ordering a rifle to Oswald's P.O. box, someone picking it up without Oswald's knowledge, somehow keeping track of and following him to Dallas 8 months later and planting it in the building he worked, that was to be on the yet undetermined motorcade route?

Much more plausible is that Oswald was directed to order that rifle under an alias, and that he stored it somewhere...maybe even in Frazier's trunk, regardless of the WC version of how that rifle got to Dallas.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Rob Clark

[Rob Clark]

On 12/24/2019 at 7:46 PM, David Andrews said:

Just a thought here: Whoever made up the curtain rods story, Frazier or Oswald (or "Oswald,"), perhaps knew that the N. Beckley Street cubbyhole needed curtain rods, based on the photo below, in which at least two of the three windows are serviced by some jerry-rigged arrangement of rods telescoped together, and veering improbably upward from the middle and right window frames.

Other than aesthetic objections, there's no reason the room's occupant strictly needed curtain rods, since there were blinds and the existing curtains were transparent.  Was he hoping to score blackout curtains next week?  Odd, for a temporary SRO.

So, what if Frazier's passenger really brought curtain rods from the Paine house to work?  (These were not recorded as found at the TSBD, I know.)

Or, what if there were no package at all, but Frazier knew the room and thought this was a plausible cover story for inventing one?

Any other scenarios possible, based on this ugly decorating arrangement?

One would think if the curtain situation bothered him that much, he would have asked Roberts if she had any or could get more or simply went and purchased some himself. They couldn't have been that expensive in 1963, and would have been taken off his weekly rent. 

[Stu Wexler]

I confronted--  if you call it that--  Buell Frazier about the excerpts of HSCA testimony that Rob posted a few years ago. He pushed back and insisted he did not say those things or experience them, etc.  How clear is the audio?  Can anyone clean it up?  The latter would be really big. Anyone a sound guy/gal?

[Rob Clark]

9 minutes ago, Stu Wexler said:

I confronted--  if you call it that--  Buell Frazier about the excerpts of HSCA testimony that Rob posted a few years ago. He pushed back and insisted he did not say those things or experience them, etc.  How clear is the audio?  Can anyone clean it up?  The latter would be really big. Anyone a sound guy/gal?

Stu,

I have the entire four tapes of audio, and one of these days I'll get around to finding the needle in the proverbial haystack...Lol It is poor quality but can be made out at high volume with good headphones...its a grueling task on the old ears though!

[Stu Wexler]

Yeah we need to dig those out while we can still get to Buell.  And they need to be "cleaned up" as much as possible.

[David Josephs]

I believe Audacity - a great free sound editor may be of some help....  

If someone got me the digital files I can take a crack at it...

DJ

[Paul Jolliffe]

4 hours ago, Rob Clark said:

So..what you're saying is that a much grander conspiracy makes sense? One that involves, Marina, George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt lying about Oswald having a rifle, pictures being faked, "someone" using Oswald's alias and ordering a rifle to Oswald's P.O. box, someone picking it up without Oswald's knowledge, somehow keeping track of and following him to Dallas 8 months later and planting it in the building he worked, that was to be on the yet undetermined motorcade route?

Much more plausible is that Oswald was directed to order that rifle under an alias, and that he stored it somewhere...maybe even in Frazier's trunk, regardless of the WC version of how that rifle got to Dallas.

Rob,

It is not up to you or I to explain how the Mannlicher-Carcano came into the possession of the FBI on the evening of November 22, nor to explain anything relating to that rifle.

The Backyard Photos story has been worked over extensively elsewhere. Suffice to say, nothing is certain about the provenance of those photos. Even the Warren Commission couldn't come up with a plausible, complete story - they knew nothing of 133-C!

It was up to the Warren Commission to show, step-by-step, document by document, exactly how "Oswald" came to order, pay for, store, practice with and finally possess that rifle on November 22, let alone how, when and where he "hid" it up until 12:30 pm in the TSBD. Not only could they not do it, they had to resort to asking Marina to "identify" the Mannlicher-Carcano as belonging to her husband! This, of course, was absurd. 

Why?

In her words "all guns look the same to me" . . .

Now, I'll give you this: the George DeMohrenschildt claim that he spotted a rifle in "Oswald's" closet in April has always bothered me. Nevermind that DeMohrenschildt was a CIA spook, assigned to babysit the asset/patsy "Oswald" for a few months in late 1962/early 1963; nevermind that only his "suicide" prevented his sworn testimony before a Congressional Committee about "Oswald"; nevermind that he seemed genuine in his fondness for "Oswald" and even wrote that "Oswald" was a patsy (!) in his manuscript; no, set all that aside.

DeMohrenschildt seemingly wrote in sincerity that he had seen a rifle (type/caliber/manufacturer unknown) in the "Oswald's" closet in April of 1963. He could well have been lying, but there is a chance he was telling the truth. If he was truthful, we don't have the slightest idea what that rifle was, nor where it went for the next seven months. Nor did the Warren Commission. They had exactly zero evidence to link that rifle to "Oswald" that summer and fall.

And honestly Rob, nor do you.

Your speculation that somehow Wesley Buell Frazier had it in his trunk for months before he and "Oswald" met is beyond illogical. Yet you think I'm the one posing a bizarre conspiracy for which there is no evidence?

[Rob Clark]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

It is not up to you or I to explain how the Mannlicher-Carcano came into the possession of the FBI on the evening of November 22, nor to explain anything relating to that rifle.

The Backyard Photos story has been worked over extensively elsewhere. Suffice to say, nothing is certain about the provenance of those photos. Even the Warren Commission couldn't come up with a plausible, complete story - they knew nothing of 133-C!

It was up to the Warren Commission to show, step-by-step, document by document, exactly how "Oswald" came to order, pay for, store, practice with and finally possess that rifle on November 22, let alone how, when and where he "hid" it up until 12:30 pm in the TSBD. Not only could they not do it, they had to resort to asking Marina to "identify" the Mannlicher-Carcano as belonging to her husband! This, of course, was absurd. 

They had exactly zero evidence to link that rifle to "Oswald" that summer and fall.

And honestly Rob, nor do you.

1) We don't have to explain it. It's in the photographic record. It was found on the 6th floor of the depository, we have video of it in situ (Aleya), we have photos of it being carried out of the TSBD. Unless of course, as you believe, multiple DPD, FBI, and members of the press conspired to cover up the finding of a rifle that wasn't a Mannlicher Carcano? 

2) I understand there are problems with the provenance of the rifle, but they surely carried one out of the aTSBD on Nov.22, 1963, which means it got there by someone who likely worked there. Unless of course, as you believe, some super sneaky CIA guy or Byrd associate snuck in under the cover of darkness and planted it there.

3) The WC did manage to "do it", whether through illicit or legitimate means, they managed to illustrate "how" he ordered the rifle and paid for it. Is there problems with the evidence? Yes, very much so. But both Marina and George DeM saw the rifle and knew he had it. Marina admits to taking at least one of the backyard photos.  

4) So Marina is lying about the photos, lying about the rifle, lying about the Walker letter, lying about his instructions to her if caught, somebody planted a photo of Walker's house in Oswald's belongings?

5) There are allegations by Garland Slack about Frazier and Oswald being at the gun range together...there's your practicing

6) We can disagree, but your speculation is based on what... Reluctance to believe? Your super huge grand conspiracy theory that has all these macabre forces teaming up together to pull off the old bait and switch is just absurd, and you have no evidence at all to back it up. 

[Andrej Stancak]

The presence of Lee Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano (or a rifle of this brand that could eventually be traced to him) in the Depository building is the only reasonable explanation of Lee Oswald's guilty knowledge. If not the Mannlicher-Carcano, Lee would most likely stay around in the building after the shooting like everybody else as there would be no single thing that could incriminate him. This does not exclude some other rifle being on the sixth floor and/or that not one shot came out of the Mannlicher-Carcano. Lee was aware that he has been in big trouble and for that reason he left the building as quickly as possible, he left his blue jacket in Domino room, he asked the taxicab driver to drop him off three blocks away from his rooming house, he took a gun (!?) and went to the most unlikely place - the cinema. It could only be his knowledge of his rifle having been used or misused for the assassination purpose which placed him in such a precarious situation. 

Similarly, Buell Wesley Frazier had to have some foreknowledge about the rifle, and he too - like Lee Oswald- understood that Lee' rifle was in the building and that he might be accused from taking part in the assassination should Lee's rifle be proven to be used for the assassination. He may have brought the rifle with Lee on another occasion or on that day but he felt he could  be "pulled in" into it - that was the motivation for his curtain rods story. The curtain rods story has any meaning only if there was a rifle which potentially could be associated with the shooting and if Mr Frazier needed to dissociate from transporting it.

Late edit: It is entirely possible that Lee Oswald moved from his location at the western wall, seen in Darnell and Wiegman, very quickly to check if his rifle was where he left it. There were two storage places (closets) in the building, one right in the front of the first floor next to the stairs and another on the second floor next to the passenger lift. It is conceivable that Lee Oswald departed quickly from the doorway, checked the first floor closet, then the second floor closet and was on his way to the upper floors to search for his rifle there when he heard the voices of Officer Baker and Superintendent Truly and squeezed into the second floor lunchroom using the hall door where he faced Officer Baker. Seeing that the Police is ahead and he would not be able to check where his rifle was, he simply exited the lunchroom and left the building. As his only reason for visiting the second floor lunchroom in the past was to buy a Coke, he bought one more bottle (he bought his first bottle of Coke about at 12.15 PM and returned to the Domino room to finish his lunch) and left it somewhere on his way out.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Andrej Stancak