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John Newman on Lisa Pease's challenges to his research


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10 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Paul

 

I know that Steve likes his colonels, but it’s difficult to ignore the Generals ... LeMay, Lansdale, Cabell (an enthusiastic promoter of the U-2 along with the Dulles Brothers) and Lemnitzer.  Those were seriously powerful people, who had an animus and contempt for John Kennedy.  And they certainly had the means, motive and opportunity at their disposal.  JFK stood in their way for dealing with Cuba, but he was also an obstacle for world-wide policy in Indonesia, Central America, Vietnam, Congo, the Middle East and elsewhere.  Castro seems like small potatoes, in comparison, and his subsequent 60-year existence underscores this point. To answer your earlier question, I don't like the notion of a plot within a plot - one which was  only "attempted" and intended to point to Cuba - that was highjacked and turned into a real assassination.  Its speculative, with no solid evidence, and does not fit Occam’s Razor.  Nor do I think that we can easily separate the military players from the CIA officers/operatives … because I think they were (and continue to be) interchangeable.  In the 1960's, CIA was primarily a paramilitary organization that carried on covert wars which couldn't otherwise be officially sanctioned.  Using military covers provided CIA with capable foot soldiers as well as a conveniently plausible deniability.  Allen Dulles (the “Old Man”) and Curt LeMay (a vocal member of the Joint Chiefs) were on a friendly first name basis and exchanged gifts, going back to 1954; all of the suspect operatives (whether in CIA or DOD) took their orders from these senior officials. By 1961-1962, all of them were on their way out of the ordained power structure; but, they still commanded a loyal and capable following.  Alpha 66 and DRE, Oswald and Castro, the Mafia Dons and/or the Radical Right, seem rather insignificant scapegoats in comparison.

Gene 

Gene,

 

Larry Hancock and I had a long conversation one day about allegiances, and to whom some of these guys gave their loyalty. That's why I brought up Luis Posada Carriles. He served in the army until 1966, but was recruited by the CIA in 1965. Where did his loyalties lie?

George Lumpkin was a Deputy Chief of Police for the Dallas Police Department's Service Division, but he was also the Commandant of the 4150th U.S. Army Reserve Training School in Dallas, one of the most respected training schools in the United States. Where did his loyalties lie?

I think it varied from individual to individual.

When you throw in the Reserves, it gets even more complicated.

Training and Organization of the U.S. Army Reserve Components

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a236572.pdf

page 3.

image.png.6c5404dd5c165991c16aac1d870fbdaf.png

(AC is Active Components of the U.S. Army).

"Constant interplay between demands...""

Semper Fi!

 

Steve Thomas

 

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Steve,

It's interesting that Posada was active Army until 1966. In 1963 he was at Fort Benning with quite a few Cubans that ended up as part of the AMWORLD project like Felix Rodriguez, Luis Sierra, and Jorge Giraud. Posada was a member of JURE from 12/63 to 2/65. JURE/Manolo Ray were part of the "autonomous" operations being run by the CIA's Special Affairs Staff (SAS/SO) under Desmond Fitzgerald's Split the Regime project. AMWORLD/Artime was being run by Henry Hecksher. The JURE leg was being run by Alfonso Rodriguez and the AMLASH/Military officer coup was being run by Nestor Sanchez. (Rodriguez was later questioned as to why he showed the Zapruder film during a CIA training class when he became director of training.)

Back to Posada. Posada was recruited by CIA? ACSI? both? to run a training camp in Florida in early 1964. He was to train small groups of anti-Castro Cubans (JURE) to infiltrate Cuba along with Manolo Ray by May 26, 1964. Ray was to declare a new provisional government with backing by the US Government. This never occurred due to the ever happening "boat trouble." The camp was originally set up by Rogelio Cisneros, Silvia Odio's friend. 

 

Edited by David Boylan
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20 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Steve,

It's interesting that Posada was active Army until 1966.

 

David,

I'm not so sure now that he was. I've only seen that in one source.

In two other places, I've seen that he was only in the Army from March, 1963 - March, 1964 

From March, 1964 to September, 1964, he was unemployed; and then from September, 1964 to ? (CIA documents dated 1965 and 1972), he was listed as a sprayman for the Pan Am Exterminating Co.

See HSCA Segregated CIA Collection, Box 45 PERSONAL RECORD QUESTIONNAIRE for Luis Posada Carriles

pp. 17 and 37.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=23193&search=Carriles#relPageId=17&tab=page

 

Steve Thomas

 

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On 1/4/2020 at 3:34 AM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

This is just a guess on my part, but could "Bravo Club" be a reference to a B Company, or Company B?

Larry wrote, "And the Cubans he describes meeting Oswald were not linked to Alpha 66 but most recently to Army training, having just come out of it.”

 

Steve Thomas

I'll just throw this out as some food for thought:

PERSONAL RECORD QUESTIONNAIRE

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=23193&search=Carriles#relPageId=48&tab=page

page 48.

image.png.04f252212362094cccb6e7bae0db9fa5.png

Steve Thomas

 

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And to add a little more on this. Manolo Ray was never a fan of the CIA and never towed their line. The CIA promised him $50,000 a month if he would pretty much do as they say. In September 1963 he signed a cooperation agreement with Alpha-66 and SFNE. This was shortly before Angel, Leopoldo and Oswald visited Sylvia Odio stating that they were members of JURE. As John Newman has shown, both of these groups were under ACSI/Army Intel as of 9/62. Does this mean Ray and JURE were now with ACSI? Probably. Again as Newman has shown, the Inter-agency Source Register (ISR) that is used by US Intel agencies to keep track of assets had Veciana(Alpha-66) and Eloy Gutierrez-Menoyo(SFNE) working with ACSI. The ISR listed Ray as working for another intl agency as of 12/63. The CIA via the Rex had been caching arms for Ray/JURE Sept and Oct '63. Posada "joined" JURE in 12/63 after resigning his commission, or so the record reflects.

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On 1/16/2020 at 12:11 PM, David Boylan said:

Steve,

It's interesting that Posada was active Army until 1966. In 1963 he was at Fort Benning with quite a few Cubans that ended up as part of the AMWORLD project like Felix Rodriguez, Luis Sierra, and Jorge Giraud. Posada was a member of JURE from 12/63 to 2/65. JURE/Manolo Ray were part of the "autonomous" operations being run by the CIA's Special Affairs Section (SAS) under Desmond Fitzgerald's Split the Regime project. AMWORLD/Artime was being run by Henry Hecksher. The JURE leg was being run by Alfonso Rodriguez and the AMLASH/Military officer coup was being run by Nestor Sanchez. (Rodriguez was later questioned as to why he showed the Zapruder film during a CIA training class when he became director of training.)

Back to Posada. Posada was recruited by CIA? ACSI? both? to run a training camp in Florida in early 1964. He was to train small groups of anti-Castro Cubans (JURE) to infiltrate Cuba along with Manolo Ray by May 26, 1964. Ray was to declare a new provisional government with backing by the US Government. This never occurred due to the ever happening "boat trouble." The camp was originally set up by Rogelio Cisneros, Silvia Odio's friend. 

 

Hi David,

You mention that Alfonso Rodriguez was questioned as to why he showed the Z film during a CIA training class.   That is absolutely intriguing to me.   Do you have a source you can share where you found this?   

 

 

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2 hours ago, Greg Kooyman said:

Hi David,

You mention that Alfonso Rodriguez was questioned as to why he showed the Z film during a CIA training class.   That is absolutely intriguing to me.   Do you have a source you can share where you found this?   

 

 

Greg,

 

Here - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=105733&relPageId=4

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9 hours ago, David Boylan said:

And to add a little more on this. Manolo Ray was never a fan of the CIA and never towed their line. The CIA promised him $50,000 a month if he would pretty much do as they say. In September 1963 he signed a cooperation agreement with Alpha-66 and SFNE. This was shortly before Angel, Leopoldo and Oswald visited Sylvia Odio stating that they were members of JURE. As John Newman has shown, both of these groups were under ACSI/Army Intel as of 9/62. Does this mean Ray and JURE were now with ACSI? Probably. Again as Newman has shown, the Inter-agency Source Register (ISR) that is used by US Intel agencies to keep track of assets had Veciana(Alpha-66) and Eloy Gutierrez-Menoyo(SFNE) working with ACSI. The ISR listed Ray as working for another intl agency as of 12/63. The CIA via the Rex had been caching arms for Ray/JURE Sept and Oct '63. Posada "joined" JURE in 12/63 after resigning his commission, or so the record reflects.

  

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1 minute ago, Paul Brancato said:

  

881CEA16-24D6-4C0C-8789-EC0B78386A8F.png

So here we have it - Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo, working for the US Army (ACSI) was possibly getting weapons from Otto Skorzeny through an intermediary. Shouldn’t come as too much of a surprise, since Skorzeny himself admitted proudly that he was, through an intermediary, supplying arms to the ‘enemies of Castro’. 

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