John Newman on Lisa Pease's challenges to his research

[Matt Allison]

Agree with this as well, Larry.

I am very open to the possibility that Nagell tried to use his knowledge as leverage between himself and the government, but if he did, it actually might be an indicator that the FBI and CIA most certainly did not see him as a crank; indeed, if Nagell's version of events jibed with what those two agencies knew to be true, it would definitely function as "life insurance" for Nagell, and they would be more likely to accede to his other requests in exchange for him staying silent.  Which is what it seems might have occurred.

Reading the letter to Greenstein, one cannot help but be impressed by the intelligence and wit of the man. Most certainly not the insane lunatic people tried to portray him as.

[Larry Hancock]

Two related things are telling as to the validity of his basic story - his lawyer actually said that he had proof Nagell had been in Mexico City he would have offered a much different defense; he told that to Russell.  Of course we not only have proof of that we have the documents that he went to the American embassy there and essentially told them he was defecting, and intended to provide intelligence to a foreign power (most likely Cub)....and that received no security response at all (should  have been reported to the FBI with them all over him).   Second, if you read one of the ruling from the federal judge that put him into prison after appeal, the judge essentially said that he could be released at any time he wanted to admit that his action was strictly a matter of robbery  (that is a paraphrase but the wording is suggestive and very anomalous).  Pretty much looks like an offer to free him if he agreed to shut up and stop talking about other things he knew.

[Steve Thomas]

On 1/4/2020 at 3:34 AM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

Larry wrote, "And the Cubans he describes meeting Oswald were not linked to Alpha 66 but most recently to Army training, having just come out of it.”

This could be the U.S. Army Special Warfare Center (SWC), Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and in particular, one of the 7th Special Forces Groups (SFG's)

 

Deleted

 

 

Steve Thomas

Edited June 20, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

One of the reasons the numbers were considerable is that RFK was really pushing the program - to a large extent as a way to deal with the influx of young and active military trainees had come back from Cuba in the prison release deal with Castro for the Bay of Pigs prisoners. Given the agreement with Russia as a result of the missile crisis the Kennedy administration was wrestling with its Cuba strategy, turning to more covert operations yet facing a larger and growing Cuban anti-Castro community in the US. 

As JMWAVE missions operations were slowing down trained paramilitary Cubans were being released,  and during 1963 even the DRE was being told that its members should give up their independent activities and join the MRR and Artime.  Even star JMWAVE operative Felix Rodriquez had been sent off to Fort Benning for Army training.

As for Artime and his group, with the start of AMWORLD he and his recruiters were given access to the Cubans in Army training as well as other Cubans in training with the Air Force at Sheppard AFB in Texas.  He was successful in recruiting a number of them, including Rodriquez.  

One of the consequences of all this was that a goodly number of very well trained Cuban exiles would go on to become active, sometimes in sanctioned projects  and often in very independent actions, across Latin America, and even into SE Asia.  Some of them would help fuel the exploding drug trafficking and in new areas of organized crime. As one of them was remarked after a bombing in Miami -  the CIA and the United States trained us well, we have lots of skills.

 

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

Steve - Funny misprint. Max Gomez is Felix Rodriguez, not Gonzales. 

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

 Even star JMWAVE operative Felix Rodriquez had been sent off to Fort Benning for Army training.

One of the consequences of all this was that a goodly number of very well trained Cuban exiles would go on to become active, sometimes in sanctioned projects  and often in very independent actions, across Latin America, and even into SE Asia.  Some of them would help fuel the exploding drug trafficking and in new areas of organized crime. As one of them was remarked after a bombing in Miami -  the CIA and the United States trained us well, we have lots of skills.

Larry,

I thought I recognized the name, Felix Rodriguez.

On This Day: Che Guevara Executed

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/on-this-day/September-October-08/On-this-Day--Che-Guevara-Is-Executed.html

“On Oct. 9, 1967, Marxist revolutionary Che Guevara was killed by CIA operatives and members of the Bolivian army.

“On Oct. 8, Bolivian Rangers who had been trained by U.S. Army Special Forces found Ernesto “Che” Guevara, in Churro Ravine, Bolivia. They opened fire, wounding Guevara and killing two of his men.”

“In an interview with the BBC, Felix Rodriquez, a Cuban-American former CIA agent who interrogated Che, described Che’s reaction when Bolivian authorities decided there would be no trial for him, and that he would be executed: “Che turned white … before saying: ‘It’s better this way, I should have died in combat.’”

 

That article I cited earlier, https://statecraft.org/chapter8.html#F32 

goes a lot into how these men went to Laos after Cuba died down.

Laos was really bad.

Steve Thomas

Edited January 9, 2020 by Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

9 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - Funny misprint. Max Gomez is Felix Rodriguez, not Gonzales. 

Paul,

Thank you. I kept scratching my head wondering where Felix "Martinez" came from.

Steve Thomas

[Paul Brancato]

Oy - I got it wrong too. 

[Dennis Berube]

Unless my "search this topic" function failed me, I am surprised no one has mentioned the Finck testimony regarding military brass in the autopsy room directing the proceedings. To me, this is undeniable evidence that at least some part of the military was involved in the operation. At the same time, Newman's theory (I was at his 11/23 presentation) was not attempting to say that the CIA was not involved as much as he is convinced that Alpha 66 was run by the military and not the CIA. Maybe that has changed or he just didn't have time to get to it (he had rather severe technical issues). Also, I haven't read his latest book, so I could be mistaken here. In and of itself, I don't see how this really changes that much of the overall story or "paradigm" regarding the assassination. How does whatever the truth of Alpha 66 is affect what we know about Mexico City? That was all CIA and largely fabricated and then lied about. "Conscious of the Queen Bee" I think Garrison's quote was, I agree.

 

As outlined in this thread, Phillips lied all over the place and admitted to being in Dealey Plaza, we are going to exonerate this guy because there is a possibility he may not have met with Oswald? Does anyone think that certain elements of the CIA had to be tricked by the military in order to facilitate the operation? (ie, forcing the CIA to cover it up due to there hands being all over Oswald) I certainly don't.

Regardless, I'm not quite sure why people think that the operation was conducted by this or that agency or department of the military. The people that needed to be involved, were, no matter who was paying them. Did DeMorenschildt receive instruction by the Army to introduce Oswald to the Paines?

 

 

[Dennis Berube]

On 12/29/2019 at 3:53 PM, James DiEugenio said:

As per military involvement, I mean be real.  Ever since the trial of Clay Shaw there has been primary evidence that there were was a military presence at the autopsy at Bethesda. This presence was there in order to be sure that normal autopsy  procedures were not carried out,  since it would reveal a crossfire in Dealey Plaza, e.g.:

1. The dissection of Kennedy's back wound.  

2. The weighing of Kennedy's brain that night.

3. The sectioning of the brain.

None of the above were done, and they should have been.  I could also mention the strange cover up of Lemay's travels that day.

The CIA would have no excuse to be there.  The military did.  And as I posted previously, Lemay and Dulles were on a nickname basis.

I was wrong, Jim did mention this already. I searched only for Pierre.

Is Newman really trying to say that somehow his "scoop" means that the military were the prime operatives in the killing?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

15 hours ago, Dennis Berube said:

I was wrong, Jim did mention this already. I searched only for Pierre.

Is Newman really trying to say that somehow his "scoop" means that the military were the prime operatives in the killing?

Evidently, he is going to say that the Pentagon were the prime movers but specific CIA individuals may have helped.

[Paul Brancato]

It’s funny how long it’s taken for researchers to take seriously the idea that the military was behind the coup. JFK seems to have practically predicted it when he asked Frankenheimer to make Seven Days in May. Dr. Strangelove’s creators must have suspected it. If the military controlled the autopsy they were at least part of it. LeMay’s efforts to get to the autopsy were only seen fully when more complete AF 1 tapes were discovered. The location of the autopsy was changed on board during the flight. General Lemnitzer had been removed and placed in charge of NATO forces by JFK, a move which may have backfired. 

[Matt Allison]

My primary reticence with regard to military malfeasance at the autopsy is based around the impression I've always had that RFK was running the autopsy from another room via his surrogate, Burkley. 

However, there is still the issue of the letter to Sprague about a comment Burkley supposedly made; it is second hand info, but still should have been investigated:

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/numbered_files/box_23/180-10086-10295/html/180-10086-10295_0002a.htm

 

 

[Gene Kelly]

Paul

I know that Steve likes his colonels, but it’s difficult to ignore the Generals ... LeMay, Lansdale, Cabell (an enthusiastic promoter of the U-2 along with the Dulles Brothers) and Lemnitzer.  Those were seriously powerful people, who had an animus and contempt for John Kennedy.  And they certainly had the means, motive and opportunity at their disposal.  JFK stood in their way for dealing with Cuba, but he was also an obstacle for world-wide policy in Indonesia, Central America, Vietnam, Congo, the Middle East and elsewhere.  Castro seems like small potatoes, in comparison, and his subsequent 60-year existence underscores this point. To answer your earlier question, I don't like the notion of a plot within a plot - one which was  only "attempted" and intended to point to Cuba - that was highjacked and turned into a real assassination.  Its speculative, with no solid evidence, and does not fit Occam’s Razor.  Nor do I think that we can easily separate the military players from the CIA officers/operatives … because I think they were (and continue to be) interchangeable.  In the 1960's, CIA was primarily a paramilitary organization that carried on covert wars which couldn't otherwise be officially sanctioned.  Using military covers provided CIA with capable foot soldiers as well as a conveniently plausible deniability.  Allen Dulles (the “Old Man”) and Curt LeMay (a vocal member of the Joint Chiefs) were on a friendly first name basis and exchanged gifts, going back to 1954; all of the suspect operatives (whether in CIA or DOD) took their orders from these senior officials. By 1961-1962, all of them were on their way out of the ordained power structure; but, they still commanded a loyal and capable following.  Alpha 66 and DRE, Oswald and Castro, the Mafia Dons and/or the Radical Right, seem rather insignificant scapegoats in comparison.

Gene 

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Paul

 

I know that Steve likes his colonels, but it’s difficult to ignore the Generals ... LeMay, Lansdale, Cabell (an enthusiastic promoter of the U-2 along with the Dulles Brothers) and Lemnitzer.  Those were seriously powerful people, who had an animus and contempt for John Kennedy.  And they certainly had the means, motive and opportunity at their disposal.  JFK stood in their way for dealing with Cuba, but he was also an obstacle for world-wide policy in Indonesia, Central America, Vietnam, Congo, the Middle East and elsewhere.  Castro seems like small potatoes, in comparison, and his subsequent 60-year existence underscores this point. To answer your earlier question, I don't like the notion of a plot within a plot - one which was  only "attempted" and intended to point to Cuba - that was highjacked and turned into a real assassination.  Its speculative, with no solid evidence, and does not fit Occam’s Razor.  Nor do I think that we can easily separate the military players from the CIA officers/operatives … because I think they were (and continue to be) interchangeable.  In the 1960's, CIA was primarily a paramilitary organization that carried on covert wars which couldn't otherwise be officially sanctioned.  Using military covers provided CIA with capable foot soldiers as well as a conveniently plausible deniability.  Allen Dulles (the “Old Man”) and Curt LeMay (a vocal member of the Joint Chiefs) were on a friendly first name basis and exchanged gifts, going back to 1954; all of the suspect operatives (whether in CIA or DOD) took their orders from these senior officials. By 1961-1962, all of them were on their way out of the ordained power structure; but, they still commanded a loyal and capable following.  Alpha 66 and DRE, Oswald and Castro, the Mafia Dons and/or the Radical Right, seem rather insignificant scapegoats in comparison.

Gene 

Thanks for posting Gene. On the ground in Dallas, it was the Colonels in the DPD that controlled the crime scene. Of course they are part of a chain of command. Generals are in charge. I completely agree on the somewhat imaginary line between CIA and Pentagon. I remain super suspicious of Colonel Jack Crichton, a man with many connections. He and George Bush, military and CIA, make quite a pair. His MID remains shrouded in secrecy, and is now almost never mentioned when Reserve units are discussed.