Steve Thomas Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 21 hours ago, David Josephs said: CE1986 is the list of contents of Oswald's one and only inventoried Wallet... nothing listed has the Beckley Address We've all seen the frame grab of 2 men looking at a wallet at 10th and Patton... that has to be occurring just around 2pm or so. Many feel this is Westbrook with the only reason for their being a real piece of fake evidence so early in the game would be to get DPD to Beckley... The fact this occurred was never mentioned by anyone.... yet it seems to me the only way they could know that fast where Oswald's room was - and at the hands of WESTBROOK the man in charge of personnel... given how embroiled Westbrook appears to have been, his telling his buddies about 1026 Beckley and then having it disappear to history seems par for the course.... David, I'm trying to work this into the timeline that we do know. Oswald was brought into the interrogation room at 2:20. Detectives were dispatched to Beckley at 2:40. By 2:00 he had already been arrested and was arriving at City Hall. As you said, no inventory sheet includes this piece of paper, and there is nothing in the dispatch tapes announcing this "discovery". Nor does it explain why, when the police arrived at Beckley, they were asking for a Harvey Lee Oswald (as per Earlene Roberts). Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) There are couple explanations of how Police learned about North Beckley as Lee Oswald's address. 1. A conspiracy explanation: a very small number of police officers watched Lee Oswald's steps after he arrived at Dallas in October. They knew his work address, they knew about Irving, they knew about North Beckley. They might have been around in Oak Cliff and were checking on Lee Oswald perhaps on everyday basis. Officer Tippitt might have been one of the few officers who knew Lee Oswald's Oak Cliff address. These officers were responsible for submitting Beckley address to Captain Fritz once Lee Oswald landed on the third floor of Police department. It is possible that the same officers followed or tried to follow Lee Oswald right after the shooting which would explain Earlene Roberts testimony of seeing a police car 106, 107, 207 or 270 stopping and honking twice in front of the rooming house. 2. A non-conspiracy explanation: Depository employers were brought to the Police headquarters before Lee Oswald and when one or more of them saw through the glass walls Lee Oswald as he was paraded in handcuffs, they pronounced his name. Charles Gevins was one of them. This guy or these guys could also add that Lee lived on Beckley and a police officer who heard this information went to Captain Fritz's office and told him that Lee had a room on Beckley. Captain Fritz took this information and started to probe Lee Oswald about Beckley - this is described in Captain Fritz testimony for the Warren Commission. Based on the description of the neighbouring area provided by Lee Oswald, Captain Fritz knew it was North Beckley where Lee Oswald lived and sent his men there right away. Both explanations safely assume that Lee Oswald lived in North Beckley rooming house. Edited March 3, 2020 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 21 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said: David, I'm trying to work this into the timeline that we do know. Oswald was brought into the interrogation room at 2:20. Detectives were dispatched to Beckley at 2:40. By 2:00 he had already been arrested and was arriving at City Hall. As you said, no inventory sheet includes this piece of paper, and there is nothing in the dispatch tapes announcing this "discovery". Nor does it explain why, when the police arrived at Beckley, they were asking for a Harvey Lee Oswald (as per Earlene Roberts). Steve Thomas Steve.... you did all that great work on "Harvey Lee"... Do you remember if you found any identifying document listing his name like that, which Beckley could have been added to? We should remember too that it may have been WESTBROOK and KROY in the other police car in the driveway... and what Mrs. HOLAN said she saw... the time to have left the wallet would have been then, at 1pm.... yet from all the witness accounts, there was no wallet there.... until Westbrook gets there.... then again the ambulance driver said Tippit was covered by a Blue Overcoat... and the fact Tippit was FACE DOWN.... with his legs pointed towards the rear of the car... (I realize this is not strictly THE BECKLEY BUNCH but if that Wallet was the source for Beckley, and there continues to be all these conflicting bits of evidence about virtually every single detail.... I believe it warrants having the general knowledge - hope you agree, DJ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcarine_sulcus From the Tippit Autopsy - verbatim: Except when you actually draw this path onto an anatomically correct model... the right TEMPLE is much higher than the areas in the brain these notes say are above and to the left.... the description is frighteningly close to the path of JFK's right temple hit... Examination of the wound of the right temple is made. It is found to enter in the right cranial fossa, pursues a course which is slightly upward, backward and to the left. There is fracturing about the entrance and extensive fractures as it strikes the left occipitoparietal bone. It is recovered in this region, 3 inches to the left of the midline and approximately 1 inch from the top of the head. Examination of the brain is made. The brain weighs 1350 gm. The course of the missile through the brain is followed. It is found to enter the right temporal lobe, coursed through the brain transecting the brain stem, severing the cerebral peduncles surrounded by extensive hemmorhage, and found to exit from the brain stustance in the cacarine gyrus to the left of the midline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said: David, I'm trying to work this into the timeline that we do know. Oswald was brought into the interrogation room at 2:20. Detectives were dispatched to Beckley at 2:40. By 2:00 he had already been arrested and was arriving at City Hall. As you said, no inventory sheet includes this piece of paper, and there is nothing in the dispatch tapes announcing this "discovery". Nor does it explain why, when the police arrived at Beckley, they were asking for a Harvey Lee Oswald (as per Earlene Roberts). Steve Thomas Steve, If the clock was accurate: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 28 minutes ago, David Josephs said: Steve.... you did all that great work on "Harvey Lee"... Do you remember if you found any identifying document listing his name like that, which Beckley could have been added to? We should remember too that it may have been WESTBROOK and KROY in the other police car in the driveway... and what Mrs. HOLAN said she saw... the time to have left the wallet would have been then, at 1pm.... yet from all the witness accounts, there was no wallet there.... until Westbrook gets there.... then again the ambulance driver said Tippit was covered by a Blue Overcoat... and the fact Tippit was FACE DOWN.... with his legs pointed towards the rear of the car... (I realize this is not strictly THE BECKLEY BUNCH but if that Wallet was the source for Beckley, and there continues to be all these conflicting bits of evidence about virtually every single detail.... I believe it warrants having the general knowledge - hope you agree, DJ) David, Nothing comes to mind vis-a-vis Harvey Lee and Beckley. All the references I can remember pre-date his move to Dallas in the fall of 1963. If that ambulance driver is correct about the radio, then what's all that business about the citizen calling in to Dispatch to tell them about a police officer being shot? Westbrook and the wallet has potential, but I'm just not sure... For myself, I've set my sights on Billie Senkel, who rode in the pilot car with Lumpkin and Whitmeyer as being the source of information about Beckley. He was also one of the Detectives sent out to Beckley; and when they got there, the Detectives were asking about a Harvey Lee Oswald, who figures prominently in so many military intelligence files. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 7 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said: There are couple explanations of how Police learned about North Beckley as Lee Oswald's address. 1. A conspiracy explanation: a very small number of police officers watched Lee Oswald's steps after he arrived at Dallas in October. They knew his work address, they knew about Irving, they knew about North Beckley. They might have been around in Oak Cliff and were checking on Lee Oswald perhaps on everyday basis. Officer Tippitt might have been one of the few officers who knew Lee Oswald's Oak Cliff address. These officers were responsible for submitting Beckley address to Captain Fritz once Lee Oswald landed on the third floor of Police department. It is possible that the same officers followed or tried to follow Lee Oswald right after the shooting which would explain Earlene Roberts testimony of seeing a police car 106, 107, 207 or 270 stopping and honking twice in front of the rooming house. 2. A non-conspiracy explanation: Depository employers were brought to the Police headquarters before Lee Oswald and when one or more of them saw through the glass walls Lee Oswald as he was paraded in handcuffs, they pronounced his name. Charles Gevins was one of them. This guy or these guys could also add that Lee lived on Beckley and a police officer who heard this information went to Captain Fritz's office and told him that Lee had a room on Beckley. Captain Fritz took this information and started to probe Lee Oswald about Beckley - this is described in Captain Fritz testimony for the Warren Commission. Based on the description of the neighbouring area provided by Lee Oswald, Captain Fritz knew it was North Beckley where Lee Oswald lived and sent his men there right away. Both explanations safely assume that Lee Oswald lived in North Beckley rooming house. Sure, and Fay Puckett could have called in to police. Thus the call from a different address attributed to Gladys and questions about it in documents provided. Fay would of course be saying she knew the man and his address. When she in fact knew a similar fellow named Mr Lee at her mothers rooming house. Why did none of the above get mentioned by anyone involved... What about the employees of the TSBD that rode the Beckley bus daily also? Why were none from this bus ever questioned about this? I do not believe Will Fritz for a hot second. Why Andrej entertains scenarios to absolve a law man who has been proven to be dishonest. Accounting for Fritz's history should preempt all of #2 by Andrej. Then there is a postal informant angle and that 3610 Beckley address. Ed PS PO Informant doesnt have to be Holmes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 Isnt it amazing how many people were informing on others back then. Guess the electronics have superseded human intelligence. Thanks David. Ed PS oddly no such name plate exists likely never did. Also because meter reader checked March 20 and reports it vacant, but March 14th there is a name plate? An FBI report stated a visit to 214 W. Neely, March 14, 1963 showed the mail box had a name plate attached reading Mr. and Mrs. Lee Harvey Oswald. Why stop at the name plate, why not ring the bell or interview the 'name plate' displayers? Week seems enough time for Hosty. Name plate seems an expensive luxury item for renters. Though some tape and a marker could suffice I guess...but that isnt the description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) Ed: you again avoided answering my question I asked repeatedly - if there was no North Beckley in Lee's itinerary, where did Lee Oswald change his pants and shirt? As if he did not, he could not be considered as Prayer Man due to discordance of colours of Prayer Man's and Lee Oswald' arrest clothes. Why are you avoiding this question? Both my explanations, the conspiracy and non-conspiracy one, are very probable and they could even be valid simultaneously. Captain Fritz was not in the plot before the assassination, only in the post-assassination cover-up . He realised pretty soon that his men were involved, basically once he arrived to the sixth floor. As per monitoring Lee Oswald in Oak Cliff, there is a record of Officer Tippitt actually being in the same restaurant (Dobbs?) as Lee Oswald, maybe on the 21st? Lee Oswald was loudly complaining about eggs he had for breakfast and Tippitt was around but did not intervene. This would be fully consistent with the possibility that a small number of officers knew about Lee's whereabouts in Oak Cliff before the assassination. As far as the knowledge of Beckley's rooming house among Depository employees is concerned, Buell Wesley Frazier knew about Lee renting a room in Oak Cliff and if he knew, I see as probable that other Depository employees knew too. Of course, it is difficult to prove who knew about Lee's rooming house. One of the reasons for which Lee chose room in 1026 North Beckley was the proximity to the bus stop for a bus which took him directly to Elm Street. It is a pity that no one has interviewed bus drivers and regular passengers about seeing Lee Oswald on a bus line from Oak Cliff to Elm. However, absence of such investigation does not disprove his regular bus rides from Oak Cliff to Elm and back. -------------------- The incident in Dobbs House is described in William Drenas' paper: "Car #10 Where are You? The document can be read here: https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/car10.htm "The first reference I could find to Tippit's activities on that day are the statements made to the FBI by Mary Ada Dowling, a waitress at the Dobbs House Restaurant, at 1221 North Beckley, (at the corner of North Beckley and Colorado) in Oak Cliff near Oswald's rooming house and Methodist Hospital. On December 6,1963, the FBI was investigating possible links between Oswald and Ruby when Mary Ada Dowling gave them the following information. She professed to recognize pictures of Oswald who had eaten breakfast at the restaurant usually between 7:00 and 7:30 A.M.. She recalled the person, now recognized as Oswald, was last seen by her in the restaurant at about 10:00 A.M. Wednesday, November 20th, at which time he was "nasty," and used curse words in connection with his order. She went on to relate that "Officer J.D. Tippit was in the restaurant, as was his habit at about that time each morning, and shot a glance at Oswald." She said there was no indication, however, that they knew each other.... ... On 12/5/63 The FBI questioned Sam Rogers, Manager of the Dobb's House. He related that since President Kennedy's assassination he recognized Oswald's picture as being that of an individual who had been a coffee customer in the Dobbs House. On that same day they also questioned Douglas Leake, another employee of the Dobbs House. Leake claimed that he had recognized pictures of Oswald as being a person who had been in Dobbs House about two times during the days preceding the assassination. Mrs. Dolores Harrison a Dobbs House employee for six years also told the FBI she recalled Oswald having been in the Dobbs House for breakfast, specific time unrecalled. She stated she recalls this particular occasion, inasmuch as Oswald had ordered "eggs over light" and, when served, made a complaint that the eggs were "cooked too hard." Mrs. Harrison advised she prepared Oswald's eggs and Mary Dowling served them to him. Mrs. Harrison went on to say that when seeing Oswald at the Dobbs House he "did not talk much and was always reading magazines or books." She related although she saw Oswald at the Dobbs House a number of times she did not know his identity until seeing his picture in the newspapers as the accused assassin of President Kennedy." Bill Drenas has mistaken "Eldorado" for "Colorado" in his article. Anyway, here we have Officer Tippitt frequenting a place where Lee Oswald used to eat and which has a direct view of 1026 North Beckley. Edited March 4, 2020 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 5 hours ago, David Josephs said: David, James Hosty: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hosty.htm On March 11, 1963, I made inquiry at this Elsbeth address, and determined from the landlady, I believe her name was Mrs. Tobias, that she had just evicted Lee and Marina Oswald from her apartment building... she had asked him to leave on March 3, 1963. She told me they had moved a short distance away. She didn't know where. On that same date, I was able to determine from the postal authorities that they had changed their address to 214 Neely Street, also in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas. On the 14th of March, I verified that Oswalds were residing at this address when I found the mailbox with the name of Lee and Marina Oswald at this address, 214 Neely Street. I always wondered about Marina's name appearing on the mailbox. Usually you just see a last name like Oswald, or Brown, or Smith or something. it just struck me as a little odd. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 Does a name on a mailbox “verify” that someone actually lives there? Does it ever say they actually moved? They owned nothing so all these rooms were furnished, apartments stocked with utensils, etc...? Boy that FBI was thorough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 Mrs Pat Hall replied through FB Messenger to my information request regarding the keys rules in 1026 North Beckley. Here is how she described the rules: "Thank you for contacting me. Mr. Lee lived in the main house. Therefore he did not have keys to the front door or his room. Those living in the basement or the back house had keys to their own entrance level and a key to their own room. " This should explain why no keys were found on Lee Oswald after his arrest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said: Mrs Pat Hall replied through FB Messenger to my information request regarding the keys rules in 1026 North Beckley. Here is how she described the rules: "Thank you for contacting me. Mr. Lee lived in the main house. Therefore he did not have keys to the front door or his room. Those living in the basement or the back house had keys to their own entrance level and a key to their own room. " This should explain why no keys were found on Lee Oswald after his arrest. So whenever he was not there - especially weekends - the grandkids had access to his pistol and holster and everything else he had there? You're suggesting that our Oswald would be okay with leaving all of his possessions accessible by anyone wandering into his room - does that sound like our Oswald? Wondering why they would lie about a WINDOW versus a DOOR.... and yes there were a few windows but "light and cheery" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 David, if you had ever lived in a barracks in the fifties or sixties you might describe this as light, cherry and private (in other words there was a door)...grin. I'm not taking any position on the pistol but I also have to say things were quite casual in those days, I have been in many homes and apartments with loaded weapons in drawers, on shelves and tables etc. with kids all over the place. I'm not saying its not stupid, we just didn't think much about it, at least down here where I live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) Mods, please delete. Edited March 4, 2020 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now