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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Hey there Larry...  and Ed please correct me if wrong here... the doors to his room had keyholes for locks...

 

Yes.

I believe Pat lives in Room #1 the first room on the right upon entering. Does she lock her room?

Exactly the same doors and locks as room 1 were on the tiny room. Room 3 is the tiny room per USPark Service.

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

. it was said by the more current owner Mrs. Hall I believe that he was not provided a key as he had a non-locking room while the basement and 2nd structure had rooms which included locks since they bypassed the main house...

That is her claim, yes.

The main house would be open for renters to come and go, I'm guessing they wouldn't be watching tv all night and no kitchen privileges kinda puts limits on what one could do...

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

At least that's how I read it.  and that the room rates where the same either way.... his "receipt" shows $8/wk... the Ad for the room which Roe posted said $7/wk.

Starting at 7 dollars.

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

One would think he had one of the locked rooms if he was there.

Yes doesnt seem one to stay in hostels or open homes. Rentals are not secure and landlords liable for not having secured rentals... mind boggling.

There was only one other Room in the main house for rent and that was room 1.

2 held Mr Johnson 

4 was Gladys

5 was Earlene 

Not normally rented out the tiny room is sans key... oy vey. 

The basment and rear house renters needed TWO keys... double oy vey.

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

... and I think my other point above needs repeating...  in true DPD fashion, the photographing of his room AS THEY FOUND IT :idea or as they open drawers and closets to find all this stuff...happens with the same attention to detail as the interrogation  

====

The could have had little Studebaker with his months of police photographer work history or anyone with a camera... but all those people were having a late afternoon lunch with all the stenographers who worked at the DPD.... DPD tape recorders where parting gifts, sorry we're done plumb out of 'em here at Homicide.......  :P

Take care Larry,  DJ

Yes why did they photograph minor auto accidents in Oak Cliff whilst not borrowing the camera for this crime scene. Indefensible.

Ed

PS to believe their story the Detectives et al had plenty of time and could have called on the telephone and simply asked the lab boys to stop by.... nah.

Throw everything on a bed sheet and get it out of there before the press arrives was their own claim!!! Cant have photojournalists impugn their frame up.

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5 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Thanks for the confidence...  the point made here is that the amount of visual information available from the frames we are discussing is painfully short on detail due to its size.

David:

here is a frame giving a view of both Prayer Man's upper body and his left leg which is slightly extended and bent in the knee joint, You may agree that there is a continuous transition between his shirt and pants without a sharp division or change of contrast. This would not be the case should the trousers be black as in Lee Oswald clothes that he had on himself at the time of his arrest.

If you wish to discuss Prayer Man's stance and why did he have his left leg bent and pushed forward, can you please read relevant posts in Prayer Man is a Man thread  or post a question there else this thread will become a Prayer Man thread.

003627_withrad.jpg

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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9 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

here is a frame giving a view of both Prayer Man's upper body and his left leg which is slightly extended and bent in the knee joint, You may agree that there is a continuous transition between his shirt and pants without a sharp division or change of contrast. This would not be the case should the trousers be black as in Lee Oswald clothes that he had on himself at the time of his arrest.

Andrej - the topic is Beckley and your argument, as I've made for many years, is he changed clothes at some point before being arrested.... 

Mr. BALL. I'm talking about this "O. H. Lee" signature on this document; he signed that on that date?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he give you the money?
Mr. BALL. $8? 
(DJ: Never do get an answer to the "$8?" question, do we?)
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know his true name was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. JOHNSON. No; not until we
Mr. BALL. On that day?

Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; the day he rented the room, they sign the register--they sign the register before I accept any money.

Mr. BALL. How many tenants did you have in October last year?
Mrs. JOHNSON. You know, I'm sorry I didn't bring my register. I couldn't tell you exactly; I imagine I had about 10 or 12.

Andrej - this is now APRIL 1964.... She goes on to say how business suffered due to the association with Oswald... yet without the register she cannot NOW SAY that Oswald lived there in Oct/Nov 1963?

Mr. BALL. Was it full?
Mrs. JOHNSON. No; I don't--I most always have vacancies.
Mr. BALL. You do?
Mrs. JOHNSON. I have had more even since this happened.
Mr. BALL. Oh, you have?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; I have; people are funny about things like that, you know----
Mr. BALL. Well, now, you knew Lee Oswald, didn't you?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, I just knew him when I seen him. I knew him as a renter, that's all.
Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first met him, at what place?
Mrs. JOHNSON. At my home--I was between serving hours and I come home for relaxation and to kind of help out. I cooperate in keeping the house and seeing after it, too, and I had returned home that afternoon and he seen the room for rent sign--the first time that he came by, I happened to have just rented the last room that one time. Occasionally, I will have them full and then they just go vacant; people just come in and out, stay a week and then are gone, anyway, at that time, I didn't have a room.
Mr. BALL. The first time he came to see you?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; that's something about 3 weeks before he came back.
Mr. BALL. This was 1026 North Beckley?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. We will make a picture of this and give it back to you.
Mrs. JOHNSON. May I have something to erase this November 13, 15--I got that wrong, anyway. I was looking at the calendar and this, I was thinking it was November 13 that he left he left my place on a Wednesday before this assassination on Friday.

667001158_PaymentrecieptpagefromRoomO-1026Beckley-Johnson-Roberts-web.jpg.ce5c0f04e3056afc436e445851801209.jpg 

Looks like 11-18-63 to me, as well as written in one sitting... they didn't have lined paper in 1963?

 

So Andrej... where is NOV 13 and/or 15?   btw - what is 3 weeks prior to Oct 14, 1963?  weeks leading up to Sept 23, 1963..(4905 Magazine), Sept 30? (WCR says Mexico, while I've been saying Dallas since I discovered that was what the evidence supported)

By accident, Mrs. J here confirms there were either 2 men representing themselves as Oswald in 2 different places 3 weeks prior to O.H. LEE being scribbled on a piece of paper FOR ONE WEEK - Andrej... she has a register:  "they sign the register before I accept any money."

Uh, not so much.  And I'm sure if I go back over this whole thread this point has been repeatedly made.  the evidence for his LIVING there is terribly thin and self-contradicting... and the POINT I still think, is the ability for this man to move around and be places while most think he's somewhere else....  the more confusion the less chance of anyone accepting a conflicting story.

But I have to shout out to those moving this forward and pointing out this sheet of paper...  everything remains connected...  the man is said to have returned from MEXICO Oct 3rd and is at the PAINE's yet brings nothing for his child from Mexico nor anything else that would suggest ot either Ruth or Marina that he'd been to Mexico - that is until AFTER the 22nd.... of course.

Mr. JENNER - When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been in Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE - They are two different questions. I will answer the first one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one of the papers

So thank you - Ed especially - for confirming by accident that Oswald was not in Mexico but in Dallas as I suspected....  and he didn't go to Houston but to AUSTIN... before Dallas that is.

Mr. BALL. The pistol holster is what they found?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Pistol holster is what I'm trying to say.
Mr. BALL. They found that after the assassination?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes sir; I seen the holster.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen it before?
Mrs. JOHNSON. No, sir; he kept that packed away. We never go through people's personal things. I instruct my housekeeper never go through people's personal things. We are not in a position to do that and its rude and we de not

Andrej.... how would she knows it was "packed away" if they never go through his things... that's a pure assumption on her part... and as I've shown you repeatedly, the DPD/FBI try to disclaim the physical evidence of the holster - what they are saying basically is that he takes the hidden holster with the pistol in it, takes the pistol out and then LEAVES THE HOLSTER HANGING ON A DOOR? instead of just taking the entire thing...

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they wanted to see the records, and we showed them--the register, I mean--and we showed them the register. And then they searched his room.
Mr. BELIN. You showed them the register with this name of O. H. Lee?
Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.

I keep going back to the Johnson/Roberts testimonies... and then read Ed's work... bottom line Andrej is you must believe EARLENE ROBERTS who Mrs. J hires and fires 3 times.

Mrs. JOHNSON. Well, she would just get to being disagreeable with renters and I don't know, she has a lot of handicaps. She has an overweight problem and she has some habits that some people have to understand to tolerate.
Mr. BALL. What are they?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Talking just sitting down and making up tales, you know, have you ever seen people like that? Just have a creative mind, there's nothing to it, and just make up and keep talking until she just makes a lie out of it. Listen, I'm telling you the truth and this isn't to go any further, understand that? You have to know these things because you are going to question this lady. I will tell you, she's just as intelligent--I think she is a person that doesn't mean to do that but she just does it automatically. It seems as though that she, oh, I don't know, wants to be attractive or something at times. I just don't know; I don't understand it myself. I only wish I did.

Rereading the testimonies - where does it say they took anything more than that HOLSTER from that room?

===================

 

I think we both agree that PM is Oswald... yes?  (The cookie cutter FBI questionnaire asked whether anyone sees Oswald during the assassination - when you'd be looking at JFK - and of course they all say no....  Ms. Arnold's statement puts him in proximity of the PM spot within minutes of the motorcade....

Hughes showing who Andrej?  Who is the person directly behind the black man a step or so lower?  And then seconds later the person is where Shelley was in Altgens with PM recessed into the corner...

From what I've seen, there is nothing which shows Lovelady's movements across the landing and closer to Frazier who simply does not appear in a pre-motorcade image on those steps...

1699531439_Hughes-image-of-Lovelady-or-Oswald-in-West-corner--when-does-Lovelady-moveweb.thumb.jpg.4a94277d31ef0be5306b62f5257e13a4.jpg 1427630617_LoveladyinAltgensandMartin-thesameshirtornot-web.jpg.8fbf59a1538faa0463062c39258df83f.jpg

If you choose to make that stand using the Prayerman image... fine...  I use BLEDSOE's testimony, the mess that is WHALEY's testimony... and while the interrogation notes mention buses and taxis, we seem to be forgetting Roger Craig's testimony which negates the use of a bus, for that Oswald (not going there here)

There is NO CONTENTION by me that his clothes are different... even Oswald doesn't wear a ripped shirt, missing buttons, to work.

Yet as I say above - you'll need a whole bunch more evidence supporting Oswald actually living there than Earlene...

 

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Good to see, David, that we can agree on quite important points such as Lee Oswald having a great chance to be Prayer Man or that Lee Oswald did change his clothes before being arrested. As far as the rest of North Beckley dispute is concerned, it seems we cannot resolve it at this stage, but who knows, we may in the future.

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 11:46 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

Good to see, David, that we can agree on quite important points such as Lee Oswald having a great chance to be Prayer Man or that Lee Oswald did change his clothes before being arrested. As far as the rest of North Beckley dispute is concerned, it seems we cannot resolve it at this stage, but who knows, we may in the future.

:cheers

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Let's add one more piece of evidence which helps illustrate that what was attributed to BECKLEY was BS...

image.png.272941f6f301094f62aff32a70be2d37.png

On the way back into the US from Mexico a passenger must show evidence of having had a Smallpox Vaccination or be stopped and interred at the Vaccination section and officially/formally vaccinated with documentation.  This is what they claim they FOUND when they came back Saturday after taking the TURNER EXH LIST of stuff...

Nothing on a STOVALL exhibit comes from Beckley...  TURNER does not list a STAMP KIT or VACCINATION and please notice that the STAMP KIT ITSELF does not have the tell-tale initials of the DPD officers assigned to inspect, initial and inventory the items given to the FBI...  nor does the VACCINATION have these initials...

So we have even more amazing pieces of evidence which magically appear at 1026 N Beckley, on the SECOND DAY of searching an 8x10 room with 1 dresser and no closet.

:up 

1864373535_OswaldStampKit-NoDPDinitials-EVERYTHINGTAKENWASINITIALLED-IFNOTTHENITCOMESFROMFBI.jpg.68af69472b7160665b212a47d179b532.jpg

 

1787917575_OswaldatDrHideel-vaccination.jpg.47b181e9cf7cbaec2a4d319af0141541.jpg 

 

There is an FBI report explaining how there is no DR. A. J. HIDEEL in New Orleans or anywhere for that matter... notice  how the signature matches the Lee Oswald signature, especially the small "d" & "l", and the angle of the "H"....  

The mixture of script and block lettering has also interested me...  but that's another conversation

1980283408_63-06-08CADIGANEx24-BACKSIDEofHideelvaccinationcard-neithersidehasDPDinitialsWH_Vol19_0158a-web.jpg.c028fa217842a80146f28511972b5bda.jpg

 

To avoid yet another encounter to explain away, the FBI sneaks in a VACCINATION CERTIFICATE signed by Dr. HIDEEL and dated JUNE 8, 1963...
better yet, it is said to have been found at Beckley...  Now we've seen the photo of the 11/23 "haul" of evidence and in fact, there is no STAMP KIT there or the VACCINATION CERT...

This particular inventory sheet was NOT PREPARED BY THE DPD but the FBI.  Interesting batch of evidence, no?

60279149_11198Gdoesnothaveaholster-holsterwasNOTgivenaninventorynumber-andwaslistedontheNOTPHOTOGRAPHEDpage...yetthereitis.thumb.jpg.e81e7b3b2754c3a188c3db7e90cc1d7e.jpg  

 

The sign here says 11/23 from BECKLEY...  yet many things are listed from the 11/22 search on the TURNER Exhibit....

1075870123_1026BeckleyinventoryphotoatDPDfrom11-23NOSTAMPKIT.thumb.jpg.cc830a0ba67b59ec249e0cc937057d7f.jpg

 

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They found nothing on the 11/23 search at Beckley. All of those articles were gathered on 11/22. Either the photo was snapped on 11/23 or they got the date wrong. Nothing nefarious, devious or conspiratorial about it. 

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It sort of reminds me of talking with Tom Alyea,  he said that Studebaker was so incompetent that a lot of the photos taken in the TSBD, especially in the snipers nest had to be done on Saturday but they still labeled them with a Friday date...makes  you think.  Tom was pretty convincing.

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4 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

It sort of reminds me of talking with Tom Alyea,  he said that Studebaker was so incompetent that a lot of the photos taken in the TSBD, especially in the snipers nest had to be done on Saturday but they still labeled them with a Friday date...makes  you think.  Tom was pretty convincing.

So the snipers nest could have been disturbed during investigation prior to the photos, e.g. shells, boxes?

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5 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

It sort of reminds me of talking with Tom Alyea,  he said that Studebaker was so incompetent that a lot of the photos taken in the TSBD, especially in the snipers nest had to be done on Saturday but they still labeled them with a Friday date...makes  you think.  Tom was pretty convincing.

Larry, did Tom offer any opinions about the rifle or rifles found that day when he was filming? Or what the officers who found and viewed them said in front of him?

Chris

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His remarks on the rifle were quite "standard" he filmed its handling by day and offered nothing conflicting with the official story.  He did not film or witnesses the sack being found or removed or apparently even mentioned at the time the hulls were being recovered - that was what struck him most, that Fritz would just pick them up and throw them down afterwards.  He also felt there was a good bit of confusion about what was found where, as with the bag of chicken bones and pop bottle, both of which he thought had been found on the fifth floor and carried upstairs as I recall...might have even been two lunch bags involved. That part was confused as everyone was rushing around so madly.  He did definitely get to the "snipers next" quickly though, just after the hulls were found apparently.

Most of his commentary, which he actually put into three newsletters was about Studebaker moving the boxes to take pictures and then reconstructing the snipers nest to be something different than what Alyea had originally seen.

But its also fair to say that although he clearly cast doubt on the DPD's crime scene practices and capabilities, especially Studebakers, he never varied at all from accepting the overall story of Oswald as the single shooter and a lone nuts- Tom was quite harsh about researchers and "conspiracy nuts" in general.  On the other hand we did eat at my favorite Mexican restaurant in Tulsa so that was good,  Connie Kritzberg (my reporter friend from Dallas) introduced us as she had known him when she worked there.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well can we all put this “Oswald never lived at Beckley” myth in the trash can? Seems this is an over zealous attempt to dispute the record and facts. Does anything get resolved in this forum? Ed LeDoux, I give you the final argument and your concluding remarks. 

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  • 1 year later...

Looks like no evidence has been posted to sway anyone that Lee lived at 1026 N. Beckley since I started this thread.

Things like a key for a tiny room or a copy of that other search warrant or a guest register or a single receipt still are no where to be found. Wink 😉

Inconsistencies are avoided at all costs.

Witnesses are all mistaken as to Mr Lee, his appearance, his attire and reading materials. Not shocking as it was Degrafenreid or Leon Lee.

NO ONE DESCRIBED OSWALD. 
DID THEY...
WHERE'S THE DESCRIPTION WITH SILVER BRACELET WITH LEE ON IT

You'd think some thing like an inscribed bracelet with LEE on it would be recalled as it would be supportive of a Mr LEE identification.


WHERE IS THE DESCRIPTION OF MR. LEE WEARING A MARINE CORP RING OR ANY JEWELRY, THERE IS NONE BECAUSE IT WAS NOT OSWALD.

..although Steve Roe has made apologies for it all.

Cheers to the "Bunch" here that did more than give excuses.

 Some outstanding affirmation and information was produced by the bunch.

My thanks to you!

CHEERS, ED

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