Larry Hancock Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I find this really fascinating. As David and Jim D have pointed out the photo is a real ringer in the whole thing. If it was an impersonation it was either impromptu or totally unplanned and way below CIA standards. I have to belive the photo came out of a dossier rather than being from a MC visit...which likely means CIA or KGB. To throw something else in the discussion (which Stu raised to me) we may be dealing with overlapping agendas. Some sort of impersonations were clearly in play given the bogus phone calls. But after the fact, Phillips may have seized the day by literally trying to insert Oswald and a Cuban plot into the assassination - as with Alvarado. It would be much like Phillips and he could have done it without HQ direction....he had been cited for similar scams in MC before, against the Soviets. In a way its like the DRE and exile efforts following the assassination, with DRE and others rushing to insert Oswald in may ways including Martino's outreach to the FBI. But all of them without any really solid proof. If there was material put together to implicate Oswald in advance it seems to have been either pretty marginal or for some reason did not get introduced as per the plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) Wasn't that sweater-vest photo previously labeled in a thread here as having been taken just after Oswald's return from Russia, in the US or western Europe? Edited January 23, 2020 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 David- it's somewhat nebulous; if you look at the page in the WC, they described it simply as "Photo of Lee Harvey Oswald taken after his return from Russia." Now that could technically mean any time between June 1962 and his death. However some descriptions in other places add the addendum of "September 1963"; that could simply mean that conventional wisdom had the photo being taken in MC. I have always thought this looked like a photo booth picture, which would mean a set of 4, and I feel like there might be others I've seen? I do not have an issue with his hairline; to me it looks correct for about that time in 1963. The surprising thing to me is how much weight he had lost by the time of the assassination; he's much lighter in photos from the weekend of the assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 While not NEW INFO... it appears to have been glossed over... The top image is the LIENVOY Monthly Summary report for October 1963 dated Nov 7 1963.... the November LIENVOY report is dated January 7 1964.... The September summary makes no mention of "an English-speaking man" Now, below that is a portion of the Sept Summary dated October 8, 1963. LEVISTER was literally at the 2 locations who would have intercepted a call from "Oswald - the English speaking man" and it would have been a BIG DEAL since there were usually no more than a handful of "exploited LIENVOY leads"... Since Oswald's 1st call is shown as being made at 16:05 (4:05pm) on the 27th ... the tap is on the Soviet line yet somehow they know it is DURAN calling from inside the Cuban Embassy... the Soviets - they claim - call back at 16:26.... then we have a number of calls on SAT the 28th... DURAN refutes everything after the 27th. Point is we have a number of CIA assets in Mexico City at the Cuban Embassy who could corroborate Oswald's presence and LEVISTER who surely would have been notified - while he was right there - that LIENVOY had picked up an American talking to the Soviet Embassy, but first calling the Military attache - and wanted to travel to Russia, possibly thru Cuba... The fact is not a single CIA-related asset puts Oswald in Mexico... first-hand... in every case of a mention by CIA assets about Oswald, it is always 2nd or 3rd hand... And finally we have Goodpasture herself writing the history of the Mexico City Station... creating more questions with virtually every word..... kinda makes the FBI's effort to create a trip arriving the 27th and leaving the 1st or 2nd kinda moot..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Wexler Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) So I am not doing this to brag about my prescience, but I was interested in Leonov as of 2011 and, beyond that, about his possible impersonation as far back as 2015. I dug up emails I sent to Larry H, Bill S and Jeff M today. It included some of the documents referenced in this thread. The major addition for the past year or so are the Mexi photos which clearly show Leonov going into the Cuban consulate. The reason I bring this up is the WHY I was interested in Leonov. Here is what I wrote someone in 2011... "Hi,I have mentioned this to Larry, if for no other reason that on my last archive visit (and I still have to email you a bunch of docs, Larry) I found Church Committee interviews with Angleton where he made a serious effort to raise suspicions about Nikolai Leonov, Che's and possibly even Fidel's KGB case agent, and an operational chief for the KGB in the Western Hemisphere. This triggered a memory, from Jon Lee Anderson's bio of Che. Pages 759-60 have a footnote for page 614 (regarding a visit by Che to Moscow when his pal Leonov was not there, having been transferred to Mexico.) The footnote reads as follows:"In November of 1962, with his habitual knack of meeting historic personalities on the even of momentous events, Leonov came face-to-face with Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald had arrived at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City and asked to speak to an official. According to Leonov, he was called out to deal with him. But when he saw that Oswald was both armed and agitated, Leonov decided he was "psychotic and dangerous," and says he quickly called other embassy personnel to help remove him from the premises. Leonov says he was stunned when, soon afterward, he recognized him as the man who had been arrested in Dallas, accused of murdering the American president. In a conversation about the various JFK assassiantion theories, Leonov dismissed the notion that Oswald might have acted on KGB orders, citing the "psychotic" behavior he had witnessed firsthand, and said that, theoretically speaking- even if the KGB had wanted to kill JFK- it would never have used someone so unbalanced and difficult to control."... I think dates are wrong, but it sounds very similar to the Nechiporenko incident. If this happened, it is fascinating." --- I think we have to factor in Angleton here in a big way. And we also have to ask why three different people-- an ABC journalist spoke at Lancer several years ago detailing a third KGB general giving a nearly identical "I met with Oswald and he lost his xxxx" story as both Nechiporenko and Leonov above-- from the Russian side, all gave the same story but with a different protaganist. I will let you folks gestate on both. -Stu Edited January 24, 2020 by Stu Wexler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Stu Wexler said: So I am not doing this to brag about my prescience, but I was interested in Leonov as of 2011 and, beyond that, about his possible impersonation as far back as 2015. I dug up emails I sent to Larry H, Bill S and Jeff M today. It included some of the documents referenced in this thread. The major addition for the past year or so are the Mexi photos which clearly show Leonov going into the Cuban consulate. The reason I bring this up is the WHY I was interested in Leonov. Here is what I wrote someone in 2011... "Hi,I have mentioned this to Larry, if for no other reason that on my last archive visit (and I still have to email you a bunch of docs, Larry) I found Church Committee interviews with Angleton where he made a serious effort to raise suspicions about Nikolai Leonov, Che's and possibly even Fidel's KGB case agent, and an operational chief for the KGB in the Western Hemisphere. This triggered a memory, from Jon Lee Anderson's bio of Che. Pages 759-60 have a footnote for page 614 (regarding a visit by Che to Moscow when his pal Leonov was not there, having been transferred to Mexico.) The footnote reads as follows:"In November of 1962, with his habitual knack of meeting historic personalities on the even of momentous events, Leonov came face-to-face with Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald had arrived at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City and asked to speak to an official. According to Leonov, he was called out to deal with him. But when he saw that Oswald was both armed and agitated, Leonov decided he was "psychotic and dangerous," and says he quickly called other embassy personnel to help remove him from the premises. Leonov says he was stunned when, soon afterward, he recognized him as the man who had been arrested in Dallas, accused of murdering the American president. In a conversation about the various JFK assassiantion theories, Leonov dismissed the notion that Oswald might have acted on KGB orders, citing the "psychotic" behavior he had witnessed firsthand, and said that, theoretically speaking- even if the KGB had wanted to kill JFK- it would never have used someone so unbalanced and difficult to control."... I think dates are wrong, but it sounds very similar to the Nechiporenko incident. If this happened, it is fascinating." --- I think we have to factor in Angleton here in a big way. And we also have to ask why three different people-- an ABC journalist spoke at Lancer several years ago detailing a third KGB general giving a nearly identical "I met with Oswald and he lost his xxxx" story as both Nechiporenko and Leonov above-- from the Russian side, all gave the same story but with a different protaganist. I will let you folks gestate on both. -Stu Please brag on, you deserve the credit. Angleton involved in this then raiding Winston Scott's safe a day after he died is very interesting even if much of it is over my head, it helps me connect the dots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Kooyman Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 14 hours ago, Stu Wexler said: So I am not doing this to brag about my prescience, but I was interested in Leonov as of 2011 and, beyond that, about his possible impersonation as far back as 2015. I dug up emails I sent to Larry H, Bill S and Jeff M today. It included some of the documents referenced in this thread. The major addition for the past year or so are the Mexi photos which clearly show Leonov going into the Cuban consulate. The reason I bring this up is the WHY I was interested in Leonov. Here is what I wrote someone in 2011... "Hi,I have mentioned this to Larry, if for no other reason that on my last archive visit (and I still have to email you a bunch of docs, Larry) I found Church Committee interviews with Angleton where he made a serious effort to raise suspicions about Nikolai Leonov, Che's and possibly even Fidel's KGB case agent, and an operational chief for the KGB in the Western Hemisphere. This triggered a memory, from Jon Lee Anderson's bio of Che. Pages 759-60 have a footnote for page 614 (regarding a visit by Che to Moscow when his pal Leonov was not there, having been transferred to Mexico.) The footnote reads as follows:"In November of 1962, with his habitual knack of meeting historic personalities on the even of momentous events, Leonov came face-to-face with Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald had arrived at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City and asked to speak to an official. According to Leonov, he was called out to deal with him. But when he saw that Oswald was both armed and agitated, Leonov decided he was "psychotic and dangerous," and says he quickly called other embassy personnel to help remove him from the premises. Leonov says he was stunned when, soon afterward, he recognized him as the man who had been arrested in Dallas, accused of murdering the American president. In a conversation about the various JFK assassiantion theories, Leonov dismissed the notion that Oswald might have acted on KGB orders, citing the "psychotic" behavior he had witnessed firsthand, and said that, theoretically speaking- even if the KGB had wanted to kill JFK- it would never have used someone so unbalanced and difficult to control."... I think dates are wrong, but it sounds very similar to the Nechiporenko incident. If this happened, it is fascinating." --- I think we have to factor in Angleton here in a big way. And we also have to ask why three different people-- an ABC journalist spoke at Lancer several years ago detailing a third KGB general giving a nearly identical "I met with Oswald and he lost his xxxx" story as both Nechiporenko and Leonov above-- from the Russian side, all gave the same story but with a different protaganist. I will let you folks gestate on both. -Stu Hi Stu, I second Ron's compliments. It's good to see you posting on this forum. I hope all is well with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 FWIW here is a link to a 160+ page file on LEONOV https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10218-10034.pdf And a memo about him coming to the CIA's attention in 1956 and being an ongoing target for doubling... in 1959... and some travel data... Hope it helps ... DJ LCIMPROVE Counter-espionage involving Soviet intelligence services, worldwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 btw - Oswald never went to Mexico in Sept/Oct 1963... just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Mugan Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 In terms of the possible time the Cuban visa application photograph was taken I’ve been trying to find information about Oswald’s exit visa from the USSR. So far, apart from various references to him having received one, I’ve not found a copy or image of it. Does anyone know if this has been released? Also, would it have been a Type 2 visa or was that just for Soviet citizens such as Marina? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 If I was to speculate... His 2 friends on the trip to Odio may have asked that he get passport, visa -type photos... For fake ID as 1 example. With the 2 application photos there were 4 total... only the one connected to the carbon had no staples, making little sense... could they be simply from a photo booth.. in terms of quality? I believe that’s Aug 1963 on the left.... New Orleans.... (never mind the impossible headsize of the marine photo...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) This should help Anthony. Welcome to the Forum, this is by Jack White with John Armstrong’s assistance If I remember correctly Edit: bigger version... Edited January 25, 2020 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) It is always good to go back to the Lopez Report. As Danny H said in Pittsburgh, he and Eddy and Goldsmith had drawn up bills of indictment for Phillips and Goodpasture for perjury. The Committee would not pass them. But one of the many gems of that report is about Goodpasture and the photo of the Mystery Man. As the report notes, Goodpasture lied about the date it was first taken. Danny and Eddy argue that this had to be a lie since the chart was clearly demarcated as to dates. So they said that Goodpasture's defense that she had just made a mistake was simply not credible. But further, the CIA actually knew who the Mystery Man really was and Goodpasture had to have known this, by the latest, one week later. They also argue that Goodpasture had to alter the date to link it to a phone call. This is probably part of the perjury charges that Eddy and Danny and Goldsmith were writing up. And I must add, the work on that passport application by David Josephs is really fascinating. Where did that picture come from? Edited January 25, 2020 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Riggs is Goodpasture.... And here is that page to which Jim refers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) David: Do you have any idea of the origin of the passport photo? You must know the FBI went to every passport photo shop in a five mile radius and no one recalled Oswald. Edited January 25, 2020 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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