Shooting trajectory.

[David Andrews]

No doubts they did visit the site on many occasions in the plotting /planning stages, the two buildings are perfect for the shooting and the Dal Tex had ample views into the TSBD for communicating etc, both combined buildings had the whole area covered.

Well, actually, Colm, I was suggesting that you look at the architectural elevations, Plaza maps, and perhaps make a visit.  Do you have a particular Dal-Tex window picked out for this scheme?

How would any passer-by "know" a shot was "fired from that window," if the muzzle blast were back at the Dal-Tex, in a window blocked by the TSBD corner?  If it were a silenced weapon - what would be the point?  Plus, a suppressor would affect the shooter's aim.

Here's one of Don Roberdeau's DP maps.  There are other versions available.  Still worth a shooter's effort?

[Colm Byrne]

2 hours ago, David Andrews said:

No doubts they did visit the site on many occasions in the plotting /planning stages, the two buildings are perfect for the shooting and the Dal Tex had ample views into the TSBD for communicating etc, both combined buildings had the whole area covered.

Well, actually, Colm, I was suggesting that you look at the architectural elevations, Plaza maps, and perhaps make a visit.  Do you have a particular Dal-Tex window picked out for this scheme?

How would any passer-by "know" a shot was "fired from that window," if the muzzle blast were back at the Dal-Tex, in a window blocked by the TSBD corner?  If it were a silenced weapon - what would be the point?  Plus, a suppressor would affect the shooter's aim.

Here's one of Don Roberdeau's DP maps.  There are other versions available.  Still worth a shooter's effort?

Thank you for taking the time to post that map David, but I don't see anything proving this theory, unless it was to be a physical examination, and with lazers pointing from the Dal Tex through the TSBD onto Elm to see does it line up to where the limo was

My theory suggests the shooter was on the corner of the Dal Tex roof or most probably in the tower, for better elevation, it is visible in this photo.

AFAIK  A muzzle flash was never seen at the window of the 6th floor, But Howard Brennan who was almost blind said he saw what resembled a gun barrel, sure maybe the same guy who opened that window facing the Dal Tex, made the carcano visible before he hid it, while others threw firecrackers around the plazza to distract the sounds and cause further confusion.

When looking at Altgens 6 I see no reaction from any onlookers up towards the higher floors of the TSBD, this suggests that no shot was fired from there.

Over 80 witnesses stated that they heard firecrackers, and in the US almost every citizen would know the sound of real gunfire, this also suggests that attempts were made to create a false firing point, and that most likely the shooters in the Dal Tex roof tower did have the gun silenced, to maximise their chance of escape and the framing of Oswald.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Colm Byrne

[Ron Bulman]

Over 80 witnesses stated they heard firecrackers?  Never read there was a definitive count on them or that it was near that high.  I'd of guessed maybe roughly a dozen who actually said so.  I guess you've got some documentation.  Might a firecracker have been a 22 shot to the throat from the front? 

[Colm Byrne]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Over 80 witnesses stated they heard firecrackers?  Never read there was a definitive count on them or that it was near that high.  I'd of guessed maybe roughly a dozen who actually said so.  I guess you've got some documentation.  Might a firecracker have been a 22 shot to the throat from the front? 

Thanks for your input Ron I appreciate it, If we can try stick on topic as much as possible to explore the possibilities of my theory, either to debunk it or keep it open as a real potential scenario that might or could have worked in a conspiracy.

80 was just an estimation I read it here, I am not sure where the figure came from, but all testimony regarding firecrackers, do suggest some went off during the motorcades journey and along it's approach to the Assassination area http://www.jfksouthknollgunman.com/index.php/06-2-assassination-firecrackers/

 I have never bought into a frontal attack, as it would never have tied into the framing of Oswald, besides the entry wound to the back would go unexplained.

 

 

(QUOTE)

When I first started studying the assassination one phrase struck me as significant because I kept reading it over and over. That phrase was "It sounded like a firecracker". The large number of times it occurred was one thing that made it stand out to me but the other was how odd it was. Others disagree with me over this, but what I found odd was that on an American city street, in a State that was no stranger to gunfire, in a country unique in it's tolerance of private weapon ownership and use, the first thought many people had was not that they'd heard gunfire but that they'd heard a firecracker. I come from and live in the UK, where until comparatively recently, gunfire was a sound totally alien to the average citizen. Not so the United States. Gunfire was and is something that whilst not exactly commonplace is also not something people would be so surprised by that they were unable to recognise it when they heard it. Before I list some of the many (it has been estimated at upwards of 80) testimonies to hearing a firecracker, these two videos demonstrate both a rifle shot and a firecracker.

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Colm Byrne

[Ron Bulman]

Through two windows, one unopened, and the live oak limbs and leaves.  This up there with mortal error, the ss agent reaction misfire or JFK being shot on main street.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=video+I'm+just+blowing+smoke&view=detail&mid=EB755ADB1CBE933996A3EB755ADB1CBE933996A3&FORM=VIRE

[Micah Mileto]

18 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Over 80 witnesses stated they heard firecrackers?  Never read there was a definitive count on them or that it was near that high.  I'd of guessed maybe roughly a dozen who actually said so.  I guess you've got some documentation.  Might a firecracker have been a 22 shot to the throat from the front? 

I tried CTR+F "firecracker" and "firework" with the extremely generous list of Plaza witnesses on Pat Speer's website. Here is a list of witnesses who made statements indicating that one or more noises in Dealey Plaza sounded like a firecracker:

 

Mrs. Ruby Henderson, Pierce Allman, Mary Sue Dickerson, Jean Newman, J.W. Foster, Jack Franzen, Mrs. Jack Franzen, Marilyn Sitzman, William Newman, Frances Gayle Newman, Glen Bennett, George Hickey, David Powers, Bobby W. Hargis, Richard Randolph Carr, Harry Holmes, Sam Kelly, R.E. "Buster" Haas, Patsy Paschall, Seymour Weitzman, Lillian Mooneyham, Jay Skaggs, Barbara Rowland, Jay Watson, Jerry Haynes, Robert Hughes, James W. Powell, Lemma Tole, Charles Bronson, Roy Kellerman, William Greer, Bobby W. Hargis, Clint Hill, Kenneth O’Donnell, John Ready, William McIntyre, Paul Landis, Rufus Youngblood, Lady Bird Johnson, Vice-President Lyndon Johnson, Cliff Carter, Warren Taylor, Thomas (Lem) Johns, Mayor Earle Cabell, Merriman Smith, Assistant Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff, Jack Bell, Bob Clark, Dave Wiegman, Thomas Atkins, Clint Grant, Cecil Stoughton, Arthur Rickerby, James Underwood, Tom Dillard, Jimmy Darnell, Malcolm Couch, Robert Jackson, Congressman Graham Purcell, Robert MacNeil, Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry, Winston Lawson, Stavis Ellis, S.M. Holland, Austin Miller, George Davis, Clemon Johnson, Richard Dodd, Nolan Potter, James Simmons, J.W. Foster, James Tague, Jack Franzen, Mrs. Jack Franzen, Jeff Franzen, Malcolm Summers, James Altgens, Marilyn Sitzman, Frances Gayle Newman, Toni Foster, Mary Moorman, Charles Brehm, Doris Mumford, Beverly Oliver, Royce Skelton, James Simmons, Jack Franzen, Jeff Franzen, Louie Steven Witt, John Chism, Betty Jean Thornton, Mary Woodward, Ann Donaldson, Maurice Orr, Georgia Ruth Hendrix, Billie Clay, Mary Sue Dickerson, Rosemary Willis, Phil Willis, Linda Willis, Mrs. Dolores Kounas, Marilyn Willis, Hugh Betzner, Pierce Allman, Jim Towner, Tina Towner, Howard Brennan, Ronald Fischer, John Martin Jr., Edgar Smith, Welcome Eugene Barnett, James Crawford, Mary Mitchell, Mrs. Carolyn Walther, Mrs. Ruby Henderson, Mike Brownlow, Hank Stanton, John Chism, Ann Donaldson, Pierce Allman, Mrs. Donald Baker, Judy Johnson, Ochus Campbell, Roy Truly, Irma Jean Vanzan, Mrs. Joseph Eddie Dean aka Ruth Dean, William Lovelady, William Shelley, Otis Williams, Mrs. Yola Hopson, Victoria Adams, Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, Dorothy Ann Garner, Sandra K. Styles, Betty Foster.

Might've repeated some names.

 

Holy cow, it's actually more than 80.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Micah Mileto

[Micah Mileto]

The data in the report from the HSCA's acoustics panel shows that a 6.5 round fired from the Sixth Floor is extremely loud and noticeable. Yet, LNers claim that Oswald shooting from the Sixth Floor could result in so many witnesses dismiss or even not hear the first shot.

 

Recently, there was this guy who claimed to have made a computer model proving how the shots could have echoed around the Plaza. The HSCA actually roped off Dealey Plaza and fired real shots into sandbags. Dealey Plaza is a highly trafficked area of Dallas, so this was a rare time when scientific understanding was prioritized over convenience.

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Micah Mileto

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Micah Mileto said:

I tried CTR+F "firecracker" and "firework" with the extremely generous list of Plaza witnesses on Pat Speer's website. Here is a list of witnesses who made statements indicating that one or more noises in Dealey Plaza sounded like a firecracker:

 

Mrs. Ruby Henderson, Pierce Allman, Mary Sue Dickerson, Jean Newman, J.W. Foster, Jack Franzen, Mrs. Jack Franzen, Marilyn Sitzman, William Newman, Frances Gayle Newman, Glen Bennett, George Hickey, David Powers, Bobby W. Hargis, Richard Randolph Carr, Harry Holmes, Sam Kelly, R.E. "Buster" Haas, Patsy Paschall, Seymour Weitzman, Lillian Mooneyham, Jay Skaggs, Barbara Rowland, Jay Watson, Jerry Haynes, Robert Hughes, James W. Powell, Lemma Tole, Charles Bronson, Roy Kellerman, William Greer, Bobby W. Hargis, Clint Hill, Kenneth O’Donnell, John Ready, William McIntyre, Paul Landis, Rufus Youngblood, Lady Bird Johnson, Vice-President Lyndon Johnson, Cliff Carter, Warren Taylor, Thomas (Lem) Johns, Mayor Earle Cabell, Merriman Smith, Assistant Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff, Jack Bell, Bob Clark, Dave Wiegman, Thomas Atkins, Clint Grant, Cecil Stoughton, Arthur Rickerby, James Underwood, Tom Dillard, Jimmy Darnell, Malcolm Couch, Robert Jackson, Congressman Graham Purcell, Robert MacNeil, Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry, Winston Lawson, Stavis Ellis, S.M. Holland, Austin Miller, George Davis, Clemon Johnson, Richard Dodd, Nolan Potter, James Simmons, J.W. Foster, James Tague, Jack Franzen, Mrs. Jack Franzen, Jeff Franzen, Malcolm Summers, James Altgens, Marilyn Sitzman, Frances Gayle Newman, Toni Foster, Mary Moorman, Charles Brehm, Doris Mumford, Beverly Oliver, Royce Skelton, James Simmons, Jack Franzen, Jeff Franzen, Louie Steven Witt, John Chism, Betty Jean Thornton, Mary Woodward, Ann Donaldson, Maurice Orr, Georgia Ruth Hendrix, Billie Clay, Mary Sue Dickerson, Rosemary Willis, Phil Willis, Linda Willis, Mrs. Dolores Kounas, Marilyn Willis, Hugh Betzner, Pierce Allman, Jim Towner, Tina Towner, Howard Brennan, Ronald Fischer, John Martin Jr., Edgar Smith, Welcome Eugene Barnett, James Crawford, Mary Mitchell, Mrs. Carolyn Walther, Mrs. Ruby Henderson, Mike Brownlow, Hank Stanton, John Chism, Ann Donaldson, Pierce Allman, Mrs. Donald Baker, Judy Johnson, Ochus Campbell, Roy Truly, Irma Jean Vanzan, Mrs. Joseph Eddie Dean aka Ruth Dean, William Lovelady, William Shelley, Otis Williams, Mrs. Yola Hopson, Victoria Adams, Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, Dorothy Ann Garner, Sandra K. Styles, Betty Foster.

Might've repeated some names.

 

Holy cow, it's actually more than 80.

Quite interesting.  A 22 to the throat then this from the front?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=de+lisle+carbine+video&view=detail&mid=7215DC5ABABF42A41F1E7215DC5ABABF42A41F1E&FORM=VIRE  While shots were fired from the rear with un silenced weapons? 

[Micah Mileto]

15 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Quite interesting.  A 22 to the throat then this from the front?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=de+lisle+carbine+video&view=detail&mid=7215DC5ABABF42A41F1E7215DC5ABABF42A41F1E&FORM=VIRE  While shots were fired from the rear with un silenced weapons? 

There is no way to know the truth for sure, between the official story, shooter positions, noise-supressors, sabots, and an actual frecracker used as a diversionary tactic. The possibilities are endles, especially if the witnesses were compromised.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Micah Mileto

[Colm Byrne]

8 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

There is no way to know the truth for sure, between the official story, shooter positions, noise-supressors, sabots, and an actual frecracker used as a diversionary tactic. The possibilities are endles, especially if the witnesses were compromised.

Hi Micah many thanks for your posts and for the clarifications on the statistics with the amount of firecracker witnesses, it is no coincidence that so many people would make mistakes on the different sounds.

I think it is safe to say that trickery was used, in many ways throughout the day of the assassination, and indeed in the months leading up to it, to allow it all to fall into place, with such success

I agree we might never know for sure all of the exact ins & outs, of how it happened but if the possibility of this theory can be proved, it would go along way, in showing us that we do have another firing point which still uses the 6th floor window on the trajectory.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Colm Byrne

[Guest]

WC Bullet trajectories.

William Kasper bullet trajectory

Opinion on bullet trajectory and use of Carcano

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt

[David Andrews]

Notwithstanding that the only bullet trajectory we can almost identify is the back wound, possibly from a low Dal-Tex window, why would it be necessary for

21 hours ago, Colm Byrne said:

shooters in the Dal Tex roof tower

with suppressors on their muzzles that affect trajectory attempt this impossible, action-movie shot?

5 hours ago, Colm Byrne said:

if the possibility of this theory can be proved, it would go along way, in showing us that we do have another firing point which still uses the 6th floor window on the trajectory.

The shooters had a hard enough time killing JFK without these heroics.  The number of missed shots speculated makes a "long shot" like this ill advised.

Edited March 22, 2020 by David Andrews

[Colm Byrne]

2 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Notwithstanding that the only bullet trajectory we can almost identify is the back wound, possibly from a low Dal-Tex window, why would it be necessary for

with suppressors on their muzzles that affect trajectory attempt this impossible, action-movie shot?

The shooters had a hard enough time killing JFK without these heroics.  The number of missed shots speculated makes a "long shot" like this ill advised.

I still feel this possibility should either be proved or debunked.

if the limo came to a stop or close to it, then the shot is not hard at all, I am not looking for nay sayers at the moment, because until I am sure if the scenario is possible, then what is the point, but any help, from those who can send me in the right direction to having the tests made, to discover did the limo, and J.F.K line up to the arc through these two windows in the TSBD for any would be assassin  up on the Dat Tex roof, to see and make a shot.

Framing Oswald was a major part of the shootings so making it appear the shots came from that 6th floor window was imperative, to the overall success

If anyone can recommend where I could take the theory to have it examined?

Edited March 22, 2020 by Colm Byrne

[Colm Byrne]

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

WC Bullet trajectories.

William Kasper bullet trajectory

Opinion on bullet trajectory and use of Carcano

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt

Thanks Malcolm Blunt & Bart much appreciated,  any more help on topic would be very welcome

Edited March 23, 2020 by Colm Byrne

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, Colm Byrne said:

Thanks Malcolm Blunt & Bart much appreciated,  any more help on topic would be very welcome

Did you read this?  # 3, '"The gun would not pattern within a one foot circumference (at 100 yards, with modifications)"  talking about a Carcano, like Hidell's.  Bart and Malcolm's work do not support your thesis.  The "firecrackers" are a separate subject, still questionable.  Two shots from the rear from the Dal-Tex roof through two windows in the TSBD and the Live Oak leaves and limbs doing all the damage to JFK and Connally and causing back and to the left is pretty ridiculous given known knowledge of the events.