The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Dennis Berube said:

Thank you for the morning chuckle Cliff. Obama's "Successful liberal policies" and no, I do not need to see you re post your arguments thereof it is ok that we disagree.

At least quote me correctly: “Successful liberal policies of his last two years.”

DACA wasn’t a successful liberal policy?

The expansion of Medicaid?

 Net neutrality, no?  Not liberal?

Backing gay marriage — not liberal in your book?

The Iranian nuke deal?  The opening to Cuba?  The negotiated removal of chemical weapons from Syria? The Paris climate accords?

You seem to have a blinkered notion of “liberalism.”

Quote

 

It's easy to attack liberalism when it doesn't exist in a historically recognizable form. Today, it apparently means, corporatism with a touch of tokenism. Also, it seemingly can mean anything other than serious economic reform and regulation (and disagreement with CIA/CFR on all foreign policy matters). If your not attacking that then what are you doing for Wallace's Common man?

https://www.epi.org/blog/superb-income-growth-in-2015-nearly-single-handedly-restored-incomes-lost-in-the-great-recession/

https://www.cbpp.org/poverty-and-inequality/commentary-health-coverage-income-and-poverty-all-improved-decisively-in-2015

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Cliff Varnell

[Douglas Caddy]

Donald Trump Has Hidden Evidence Of His Crimes For Years. Joe Biden Can Expose It.

The new administration should open the books and expose the Trump administration’s misdeeds.

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-joe-biden-prosecute_n_5fd3bdf7c5b61d81b33ea882

 

[Sandy Larsen]

 

1 hour ago, Dennis Berube said:

17 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I was surprised because T. Roosevelt, Jefferson, and Truman have ranked in the top 10 of virtually every major poll taken of scholars.

Sandy, if you re-read that list I rather hastily concocted, Jefferson was on there and LBJ was not.

 

Dennis,

When I first posted that poll showing Obama at #8, you said that Truman didn't belong there and that several others on the list were overrated. I crossed all those off my list to make it agree with your sentiments. Jefferson was one of those you'd said was overrated.

Later, when you posted your top 10, you apparently changed your mind and put Jefferson on your list. I didn't notice that you'd changed your mind, and that is why Jefferson remained crossed off.

As for LBJ, who took the #10 position on the poll I cited, I didn't cross his name off because you didn't object to his name being there.

 

[Douglas Caddy]

Joseph McBride posted this on Facebook today:

From the Daily Mail [U.K.]

A team in hazmat suits will spray the entire [White House] residence with disinfectant after Trump leaves and remove carpets, curtains and furniture.

‘The incoming President and First Lady get to choose their new furniture from a secret warehouse,’ Ms Andersen Brower told CNN.

A member of the transition team added: ‘Mr Trump’s administration has been riddled with the coronavirus. The Bidens are taking no chances. The entire property will be deep-cleaned down to

replacing doorknobs and taking down soft furnishings. The virus can linger on hard surfaces so the entire residence and executive offices will be wiped clean with disinfectant to exorcise any trace of Team Trump.’

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

   Interesting discussion of Presidential rankings.  I'm going to chime in here, because I was an American Studies major at Brown, (as was JFK, Jr., BTW) and I've read over 20 biographies from the Easton Press Presidential library series since I retired two years ago.

   First of all, what criteria are we using in these rankings?  If we rightly deplore American imperialism, slave ownership, and the genocidal treatment of Native Americans, (and the Third World) we would end up disqualifying numerous American Presidents.  Five of our first seven Presidents were slave owners.

   I might restrict myself to a few observations, while acknowledging up front that I'm very distantly related to the Roosevelts. 

   The greatest?  Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and FDR are no brainers.  Madison ranks among the great Founding Fathers for his contributions to, and defense of, the U.S. Constitution.

   Polk-- the shamelessly imperialist, Tennessee slave owner-- accomplished a great deal in his one-term, dark horse tenure.  He negotiated/extorted the acquisition of a vast array of territory to the U.S. via the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo-- west Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah, and southern Colorado.  He also negotiated the acquisition of Oregon and Washington state with the U.K.  In addition, Polk, a former Speaker of the House during Jackson's Presidency, first articulated the precedents of; 1) a POTUS needing to represent all U.S. citizens, not just those who voted for him, (Trump never learned that one) and 2) using the State of the Union address to outline a legislative agenda.

  Grant-- The most popular POTUS of the latter half of the 19th century, whose end-of-life memoir was a great 19th century best seller.  Celebrated internationally for his role in defeating the Confederacy and presiding over Radical Reconstruction.  Used U.S. troops to suppress KKK terrorism in South Carolina.  Hated in the South, and defamed in the 20th century by "Lost Cause" historians.  In recent years, historians have begun to revise "Lost Cause" representations of Grant as a merely corrupt, inept drunkard.  Yes, his father-in-law gave Grant a slave as a valet before the war, but Grant freed him at a significant financial loss at a time when he was broke.

    Garfield was a gifted Speaker of the House during Radical Reconstruction, but didn't serve long enough as POTUS (before his assassination) to be ranked among the greats.

   Truman has been lionized for nuking Japan and signing off on the creation of the Israeli state in Palestine, but the consensus now is that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unnecessary, and, as James Forrestal opined before his murder, the establishment of Israel was a gargantuan foreign policy blunder for the U.S., with disastrous, long-term consequences.  Truman also, disastrously, signed off on the creation of the CIA.

    LBJ was, IMO, in on the plot to murder JFK, and escalated the disastrous war in Vietnam as a direct consequence of JFK's assassination.  He does deserve credit for using his Congressional skills to finesse the passage of the Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, Medicare, and Medicaid, even though the impetus for these major legislative achievements originated with JFK.

    Clinton is very much underrated as a successful POTUS, mainly as a result of the right wing/Scaife/White Water smear campaign.  Clinton and Gore increased the top income tax rate in 1993, (by a 51-50 Senate vote) and presided over eight years of robust GDP growth and a dramatic decline in the growth rate of the Reaganomic national debt.  Clinton left Bush and Cheney with a budgetary surplus and a mere $5 trillion in national debt, which Bush and Cheney promptly mushroomed.  Alan Greenspan wrote in A Time of Turbulence that Bill Clinton was the most intelligent POTUS he had worked with during his storied career.

    Obama, definitely, ranks among the top ten best Presidents in history.  A century after Teddy Roosevelt first called for universal health insurance, Obama got it done-- succeeding even where Clinton had failed.  Obama also enacted the highly effective Stimulus Recovery Act of 2009, which prevented the Great Bush-Cheney Recession and widespread bank failures from devolving into a second Great Depression.  Obama also presided over the passage of the Dodd-Frank Wall Street regulatory reform act, in response to the 2008 Crash.  He was consistently sabotaged and defamed by the Koch-funded GOP Tea Party and right wing media, but presided over seven years of consistent GDP and private sector job growth, and a near TRIPLING of the U.S. stock markets-- as I can attest from personal financial experience.

   

Edited December 14, 2020 by W. Niederhut

[Douglas Caddy]

How Right-Wing Conservatives Have Laid Waste to America for 50 Years

Thanks to a half century of insidious "trickle-down" philosophy—which astoundingly continues to be preached by many of the super-rich—inequality has stretched our nation nearly to the breaking point.

by

Paul Buchheit

 

How Right-Wing Conservatives Have Laid Waste to America for 50 Years | Common Dreams Views

[Bob Ness]

49 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

   Polk-- the shamelessly imperialist, Tennessee slave owner-- accomplished a great deal in his one-term, dark horse tenure.  He negotiated/extorted the acquisition of a vast array of territory to the U.S. via the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo-- west Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah, and southern Colorado.  He also negotiated the acquisition of Oregon and Washington state with the U.K.  In addition, Polk, a former Speaker of the House during Jackson's Presidency, first articulated the precedents of; 1) a POTUS needing to represent all U.S. citizens, not just those who voted for him, (Trump never learned that one) and 2) using the State of the Union address to outline a legislative agenda.

 

   

Wasn't Polk the one who engineered the annihilation of the native population? Or has primary responsibility at any rate.

[Kirk Gallaway]

What I like about W's view is that he tries to achieve some balance. i admire Sandy's persistence in asking Jim and Dennis about rating the Presidents because I think I know why he may be puzzled  and I'll attempt to answer purely on the number of negative or positive statements made over time.

Jim and Dennis are largely 2 peas in a pod, very influenced by Oliver Stones "Unauthorized biography of America", which starts around the Depression era, which is quite good, and I would recommend. I'll key mostly on Jim because of sample size over the years,  Jim never really presents balance, though Dennis seems to be presenting some more in his recent posts. . But Jim's order  of best President would be:

1) JFK

2) JFK

3) JFK and so on...

One exception might be FDR, I assume Jim given his stated preferences likes FDR, but he's really been rather quiet about it. Since this forum and Jim  is big on media conspiracies, I've never heard Jim say so, but I  feel like there could be a legitimate  MSM conspiracy alleged about the historical coverage of FDR's Presidency being swept under the rug, whereas Jim predictably thinks JFK has gotten the worst take, because they refuse to revise their blind obeyance to the WC findings and refusal to declaratively revise the fact that JFK was actually trying to wind down and not escalate the U.S.involvement in Vietnam.

A few years ago, Jim perpetuated a JFK cult here. Almost every one posts he started  was to show that the world would have been perennially changed if JFK was allowed to fill out 2 terms. I won't  characterize it as I did at the time, but it did bug me.

Jim evades Sandy's question about his top 10 Presidents and defers to experts like Paul Bleau because.. Going strictly on impressions from what he's said. Jim is pretty much contemptuous of all the other Presidents since FDR,with the exception of JFK, and has nothing good to say about any of them. In fact, Jim never says for example, " Such in such was good here, but was terrible there, and that why I hate him". That also goes for people like Noam  Chomsky who is about as vigilant as Jim about U.S. intervention and similarly has  nothing good to say about any Presidents, ,and who I would think represents Jim's views more than he does mine, but Jim pretty much castigates anyone who doesn't publicly espouse the JFKA conspiracy, so for Jim,  that's another hoop for a leader to jump through.

On the other hand, From what I've seen here, it's a very elite group of historic figures  that Jim likes, and they have the status of divine  super heroes. They are:.

1.JFK

2. RFK

3. Jim Garrison

4.Oliver Stone

5. Vladimir Putin'

6. Robert Parry-always referring to him as " the great".

7.Julian Assange

8.Mort Sahl

 

Dennis's response to Sandy of 9 and 10 being Garfield and Arthur, i assume was a joke, as Garfield was assassinated very early in his Presidency and Arthur inherited his Presidency and never successfully was re elected to the Presidency, much like Gerald Ford. It kind of requires more research to get those last numbers down and we are sort of spitballin' here.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Kirk Gallaway

[James DiEugenio]

2 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

How Right-Wing Conservatives Have Laid Waste to America for 50 Years

Thanks to a half century of insidious "trickle-down" philosophy—which astoundingly continues to be preached by many of the super-rich—inequality has stretched our nation nearly to the breaking point.

by

Paul Buchheit

 

How Right-Wing Conservatives Have Laid Waste to America for 50 Years | Common Dreams Views

I agree with this and it could be much longer.  There really is no conservative party in the USA today.  The GOP has become a party of destruction.  Its main MO is to torch liberalism. Clinton's FCC revisions were instrumental in all of this.  

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

A few years ago, Jim perpetuated a JFK cult here. Almost every one posts he started  was to show that the world would have been perennially changed if JFK was allowed to fill out 2 terms. I won't  characterize it as I did at the time, but it did bug me.

Absolutely the world would have been perennially changed if JFK had served two terms.  Are you arguing that Nixon would have won in 1968 regardless?

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Wasn't Polk the one who engineered the annihilation of the native population? Or has primary responsibility at any rate.

Bob,

     I know more about Native American history out here in the West (Arapahoe, Cheyenne, Sioux, Ute, Apache, etc.) than in the Eastern U.S.  I know that Andrew Jackson was a prime mover in the wars and forced ex-patriation of the Five Civilized Nations, Indian Removal Act, (1830) and "Trail of Tears."   James Polk was, of course, a Jackson protégé, and the displacement of Eastern tribes continued during Polk's one-term Presidency.

    The truth is that American history from the early 17th century to the 20th witnessed a continuous process of annihilation and displacement of indigenous Native Americans from the East Coast to the Pacific, terminating in Arizona's Apache Wars of the 1870s.

    No doubt, Polk's acquisition of the Western U.S. after Guadalupe-Hidalgo contributed to the mass genocide and confiscation of Native American territories.

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

    The truth is that American history from the early 17th century to the 20th witnessed a continuous process of annihilation and displacement of indigenous Native Americans from the East Coast to the Pacific, terminating in Arizona's Apache Wars of the 1870s.

 

W.,

For me, the Indian Wars ended with the surrender of Chief Joseph in northern Montana in October, 1877.

Steve Thomas

Edited December 15, 2020 by Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

Trump just fired Bill Barr (12/14/20) effective 2/23/20..

It was nice and polite and everything. He's leaving to spend more time with his family.

I wonder if John Durham's investigation was starting to turn up things Trump wants to keep hidden.

Steve Thomas

Edited December 14, 2020 by Steve Thomas

[Andrew Prutsok]

Hard to believe he resigned when he could have easily murdered a dozen or so more federal death row inmates in the next month or so.

[W. Niederhut]

46 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Trump just fired Bill Barr (12/14/20) effective 2/23/20..

It was nice and polite and everything. He's leaving to spend more time with his family.

I wonder if John Durham's investigation was starting to turn up things Trump wants to keep hidden.

Steve Thomas

     My wife and I were talking this morning about the Electoral College votes and I said, "I'll bet Trump will create some headline-grabbing distraction later today around the time that they announce Biden's victory."

    Right on cue, WaPo bumped their lead story about Biden's win with the story of Barr getting sh*t-canned.